Poll : G forces, should they have an effect on a ship's pilot/crew?

[Wicpar]

I vote no. Seems a bit too complex for far to little payoff. Most of the problems like, ships accelerating too fast and turn speed can be handled by the engine and thruster mechanics and fuel consumption. I do not think this problem will need an additional system of injuring the player or ship.

 

Not to mention with all the technologies that seem to be available in the game, nano compressing weight and items, artificial gravity and whatever other crazy technologies in the game this seems like a problem that could be easily solved.

 

If this was a flight sim style game. A game that was 99% about building a ship and flying it with an ultra realistic feel to it, I would be all for it. In dual universe with all the other things to do in the game and the combat not really about dog fighting or ultra realistic flight. I just don't see the pick up in spending time on a system like this.

i would quite disagree, G forces have a big impact on space travel. without G-Forces we could use a big cannon to shoot people to mars and done, but that is ludicrous. without G-forces the difficulty curve for agility builds is quite linear towards thrusters tech level and fuel efficiency, but with G force you would have to add exponential inertial dampener transforming that curve in a more logarithmic one, as you need more mass to go faster thus going slower a bit than you would without.

[Violet]

If you have realistic g forces that's going to put serious limitations on how fast you can accelerating which will make intrasolar travel boring as hell hope everyone is prepared for multi hour trips to the moon

[Wicpar]

If you have realistic g forces that's going to put serious limitations on how fast you can accelerating which will make intrasolar travel boring as hell hope everyone is prepared for multi hour trips to the moon

that is not true, the warp drive works by removing space before you and putting it behind you, this allows for great absolute (because relatively you still accelerate slowly, but the smaller space multiplies the effect) acceleration without G forces, the only drawback is that you only can go in a straight line, as it does not reduce rotation based G-Force. 

[Lethys]

Actually you don't accelerate at all, you just stand still. Space around you is bent

[Wicpar]

Actually you don't accelerate at all, you just stand still. Space around you is bent

space may be bent, but depending on the geometry it either generates acceleration, or multiplies speed.

[Lethys]

No. Just no. The alcubierre drive you described just bend space. No acceleration of the ship itself and no GeForces

[Cornflakes]

Sir, G-Forces in space are caused due to inertial strain on the body of a pilot / crewman , as the ship goes in quite the speed and as we know from E=MC^2, more speed = more mass = more inertia, which is why the devs can add :

The formula is for /restmass/ and speed independent.

It also has no effect on inertia on game relevant scales.

It also has no effect at all on local acceleration.

Regardless of how fast you are, you can accelerate with the same rate and thus experience the same "g-forces" as they are inertial pseudoforces that are caused by acceleration.

Its just that external observers dont agree with the velocity change you must have undergone from your point of view.

 

And relativistic mass increases dont matter a single bit with speeds that any game useful physics engine can handle.

Relativistic effects generally dont matter on a human percievable scale below 0.3c.

and when you include relativistic mass increase.

At 0.3c the mass increase is about 5%

At 0.4c 9%.

Any physics engine breaks way before that speeds.

 

And when you include relativistic mass effects you also have to include time and space dilation.

Cause you cant have one without the others

[Wicpar]

No. Just no. The alcubierre drive you described just bend space. No acceleration of the ship itself and no GeForces

 

yes, it is true, but if my theory that gravity is caused by the bending of space-time, it can generate an acceleration to the area where there is more space, as matter has a tendency to expand where there is more room, like a gas, thus creating some amount of acceleration. But it is speculation.

[Limyaael]

I think a good tradeoff between server load and realism is to simulate the effects in a simple manner rather than properly calculating the force on different parts of ships and such. I wonder if they'd apply torque to orbital stations and such too.

[Wardion2000]

I vote no.  Inertial emulation and g-forces in a 'futuristic' space game is a bit silly to me.  If you have the ability to dampen inertia or g-forces for acceleration at some of the ridiculous speeds you are supposedly simulating you can certainly dampen it for any maneuver you can think of.

[Wicpar]

I think a good tradeoff between server load and realism is to simulate the effects in a simple manner rather than properly calculating the force on different parts of ships and such. I wonder if they'd apply torque to orbital stations and such too.

the only calculations that are expensive are the collision detections.Torque, rotation, speed, acceleration are cheap as hell, it would be stupid to remove such fast calculations for optimization.

It would be more productive trying to improve the algorythms.

[Volkier]

I would like to answer "yes if it doesn't interfere with or hinder the building mechanic / other physics", as you would now have to factor in a number of other variables like point of rotation against player etc.

 

On the flip side, you would have to assume that there is some sort of artificial inertia generation created by your ships' systems, as you will otherwise leave a thin film of moist cells spread against the back of your cockpit whenever you engage your warp drive. Probably with the rest of your ship structure that wasn't able to handle the force.

 

Maybe you could go all the way and have it as a creative system where you would have G-Force effects on ships that don't have "inertia generator" module and not on ones with such a module active? This would also expand the ability to 'sabotage' a ship from warping off by disabling this device. 

 

But yeah, I'm kinda over-thinking the "yes or no" question. I just can't answer it as a "yes or no" with undisclosed variables, in the context of what would be preferred. 

[Anaximander]

I would like to answer "yes if it doesn't interfere with or hinder the building mechanic / other physics", as you would now have to factor in a number of other variables like point of rotation against player etc.

 

On the flip side, you would have to assume that there is some sort of artificial inertia generation created by your ships' systems, as you will otherwise leave a thin film of moist cells spread against the back of your cockpit whenever you engage your warp drive. Probably with the rest of your ship structure that wasn't able to handle the force.

 

Maybe you could go all the way and have it as a creative system where you would have G-Force effects on ships that don't have "inertia generator" module and not on ones with such a module active? This would also expand the ability to 'sabotage' a ship from warping off by disabling this device. 

 

But yeah, I'm kinda over-thinking the "yes or no" question. I just can't answer it as a "yes or no" with undisclosed variables, in the context of what would be preferred. 

Unless you plan on building a ship as it flies, you won't have any problems :V

[Wicpar]

Unless you plan on building a ship as it flies, you won't have any problems :V

and even then you could use bots to do so if implemented.

[Anaximander]

and even then you could use bots to do so if implemented.

that's a man with vision, operating drones from inside the ship to repair on the outside.

[Wicpar]

that's a man with vision, operating drones from inside the ship to repair on the outside.

well borg do...

[Shynras]

pointless to ask for features that will never be added because unfun and time consuming

[Wicpar]

pointless to ask for features that will never be added because unfun and time consuming

Sad to see you don't see how deeply this feature affects the gameplay in a positive way. It may be less comfortable for the individual but it creates jobs and tightens the community together to fight the laws of nature.

[Cornflakes]

I would like to answer "yes if it doesn't interfere with or hinder the building mechanic / other physics", as you would now have to factor in a number of other variables like point of rotation against player etc.

 

On the flip side, you would have to assume that there is some sort of artificial inertia generation created by your ships' systems, as you will otherwise leave a thin film of moist cells spread against the back of your cockpit whenever you engage your warp drive. Probably with the rest of your ship structure that wasn't able to handle the force.

 

Maybe you could go all the way and have it as a creative system where you would have G-Force effects on ships that don't have "inertia generator" module and not on ones with such a module active? This would also expand the ability to 'sabotage' a ship from warping off by disabling this device. 

 

But yeah, I'm kinda over-thinking the "yes or no" question. I just can't answer it as a "yes or no" with undisclosed variables, in the context of what would be preferred. 

 

 

i'd like to point out that proper warp drives (aka alcubierre drives) dont impart any force on your ship.

viewed locally you dont accelerate at all.

you just take space and move it around, while you are incidentally on that "space plane" (harr harr) you are moving around.

there is no classical force or acceleration there.

 

(also an inertia /generator/ would be rather counter productive to add to a ship you want to accelerate :V an inertia dampener would be smarter)

[Fitorion]

No.  I don't want to have to worry about blacking out or redding out or spinning my ship apart in game.

 

Yes I do want to be able to build ships and stations with rotating sections so that those sections have gravity.  (but I can pull this off cosmetically if I can have rotating parts and gravity plating)

 

I also want to have gravity plating or something like that so I can locally define which surface of the ship is down... and make an M.C. Escher ship interior.

 

 

G force... or the sensation of gravity is caused by acceleration and resistance to it.  Changing direction requires acceleration and a way to apply that force to you... the deck of a ship... the cockpit seat... The astronauts on the space station in Orbit above Earth are still bound to the Earth by gravity.  Gravity hasn't shut off... though it is a little weaker given their distance from Earth's mass.  Why then do they float around up there you ask? They're still being accelerated by gravity towards Earth why can't they feel it?  Well Earth is spherical and they are traveling so fast sideways around it that they fall towards Earth but always miss it.  They travel as far forward every second as they would fall.  They're falling at the same rate as everything around them and there's no atmosphere to resist their motion. 

 

I get such accuracy in games like Kerbal Space Program.  I don't want it in something like Dual Universe.

[wesbruce]

You can skip g forces as a physics thing while still having it as part of the skill tree. 

 

Pilot skills can include; g force control, safe turn, g related crew communication, g trapping (effects a opposing ship in combat.). 

Players would Suffer a standing negative "in turn g effect" to all skill while standing or walking

but they too can have g  force skills:  g anticipation, g agility that also counters it. 

Engineering skill can include: gravity stabilisation while working at the gravity generator that all big ships and stations have. 

You could also have gravity guns that impose the g force related negative skill penalty on the target. Or just toss them about randomly. 

[Wicpar]

You can skip g forces as a physics thing while still having it as part of the skill tree. 

 

Pilot skills can include; g force control, safe turn, g related crew communication, g trapping (effects a opposing ship in combat.). 

Players would Suffer a standing negative "in turn g effect" to all skill while standing or walking

but they too can have g  force skills:  g anticipation, g agility that also counters it. 

Engineering skill can include: gravity stabilisation while working at the gravity generator that all big ships and stations have. 

You could also have gravity guns that impose the g force related negative skill penalty on the target. Or just toss them about randomly. 

 

good idea given that there could be a module to remove a percentage of the G-Force (that removes each iteration the same percentage as it is left, like the element resistances of the hull/shields in eve)

[Shynras]

Sad to see you don't see how deeply this feature affects the gameplay in a positive way. It may be less comfortable for the individual but it creates jobs and tightens the community together to fight the laws of nature.

Oh, but i see it. Still, there are many other features that could be added, and that could provide more depth, gameplay and fun to the game, than this. In particular, features, that wouldn't create new problems for devs to solve (since they've a lot of stuff to do already).

- This requires physics, to work at all, and physics is always consuming in terms of resources, especially in a game which goal is to support large scale battles with thousands of players. 

- It may be cool to try at the beginning, but after a while this would piss off people. It is a realistic but unfun feature.

- Noone wants to die or worry in a fight because of it.

- G may be different for each player in certain situations, depending on their position on the ship, so it may be hard for the pilot to track. 

 

This game is not a simulator. It is a MMORPG sandbox, and its main feature is to create a social world: economy, politics, and warfare. Any other feature of the game, is secondary but welcome as long as it is part of those 3 main features. Voxels give us the tools to create ships, stations or whatever, that plays an important role in warfare. Mining is core of the economy. Exploration is important for warfare and economy. Organizations is fundamental for politics and warfare. G force, instead, is pointless, as it would be the need to drink or eat ingame....cool for a while, annoying after.

[Wicpar]

Oh, but i see it. Still, there are many other features that could be added, and that could provide more depth, gameplay and fun to the game, than this. In particular, features, that wouldn't create new problems for devs to solve (since they've a lot of stuff to do already).

- This requires physics, to work at all, and physics is always consuming in terms of resources, especially in a game which goal is to support large scale battles with thousands of players. 

- It may be cool to try at the beginning, but after a while this would piss off people. It is a realistic but unfun feature.

- Noone wants to die or worry in a fight because of it.

- G may be different for each player in certain situations, depending on their position on the ship, so it may be hard for the pilot to track. 

 

This game is not a simulator. It is a MMORPG sandbox, and its main feature is to create a social world: economy, politics, and warfare. Any other feature of the game, is secondary but welcome as long as it is part of those 3 main features. Voxels give us the tools to create ships, stations or whatever, that plays an important role in warfare. Mining is core of the economy. Exploration is important for warfare and economy. Organizations is fundamental for politics and warfare. G force, instead, is pointless, as it would be the need to drink or eat ingame....cool for a while, annoying after.

 

i would say otherwise, first, you would have ways to counteract it with skills and ship modules, second, it allows for a more fine tuning of the balance of agility builds, thing is agility builds with the current theoretical system are OP, and will be nerfed in other ways that will make them less fun like limiting speed with skill, or else. anyways the modification will result in a linear downscale. G forces would allow for a logarithmic reality based (not stats) progression you can mitigate in various ways. The problem is not if you will die, it is how will you integrate your modules that prevent this.

 

You assume just G force is the end of the story but no. everything is connected. if you remove such a deep feature (deep because it changes the most basic mechanics and affects vastly every player) you also remove the interaction it has with all other aspects of the game, like ship deign that would need more thinking, industry to create the most efficient anti-G-Force module, battles that could be changed by propulsing ships too fast with tractor beams and killing its crew, destruction of probes too close to black holes, death upon impact on physical objects, ship ramming.

 

and i think there are more.

 

thing is it is a complexification agent, in the early game you buy a anti-G-Force module and that's it. later you will have to deal with it way more profoundly, in nearly every aspect of DU.

 

Thing is control over it has to be provided, but you have to provide enough for it, and if you don't you get punished, but you can use it against your ennemies.

 

This could even generate a new kind of weapon: a graviton well, that accelerates a ship into a singularity and then stops it dead in the center thus creating immense G-forces, the weapon would have a depth and radius relative to the energy used, so for instance a death star sized ship could easily gulp an entire fleet, but most fighters in it will survive because of their improved G-Force resistance.

 

That is the extent it can affect the game. It's not just a matter, dam i got squished, it's a matter of how can i use it to help me and destroy the ennemies.

 

and even more could be extrapolated if thought enough about it.

[Anaximander]

No.  I don't want to have to worry about blacking out or redding out or spinning my ship apart in game.

 

Yes I do want to be able to build ships and stations with rotating sections so that those sections have gravity.  (but I can pull this off cosmetically if I can have rotating parts and gravity plating)

 

I also want to have gravity plating or something like that so I can locally define which surface of the ship is down... and make an M.C. Escher ship interior.

 

 

G force... or the sensation of gravity is caused by acceleration and resistance to it.  Changing direction requires acceleration and a way to apply that force to you... the deck of a ship... the cockpit seat... The astronauts on the space station in Orbit above Earth are still bound to the Earth by gravity.  Gravity hasn't shut off... though it is a little weaker given their distance from Earth's mass.  Why then do they float around up there you ask? They're still being accelerated by gravity towards Earth why can't they feel it?  Well Earth is spherical and they are traveling so fast sideways around it that they fall towards Earth but always miss it.  They travel as far forward every second as they would fall.  They're falling at the same rate as everything around them and there's no atmosphere to resist their motion. 

 

I get such accuracy in games like Kerbal Space Program.  I don't want it in something like Dual Universe.

The point is, if there's "magical inertial forces removal" in the game, ships' mass plays no real part in the crew it has and/or how maneuverable it may be.

 

Take a battleship's hull and armor, add a lot ot engines, you got a battleship-sized starfighter. Problem? Yes. If I wanted fantasy, I would have asked for playable races as well, like orcs and elves.

 

And nobody even suggested redding out like it's some Star Citizen, World War 2 in space logic. We're talking for subtle things, like the crew experiencing a hinderance in movement speed and pilots getiing stunned if they pulled a very sudden turn.

 

Except if you want a 10 kilometers ship doing flips like it's a ballerina. Cause Cthulu knows that's not ridiculous. If a dreanaught can do a flip like it's a trained dolphin and can absorb the inertial strain exerted upon it, I don't believe there are many a weapon that should be able to damage it, safe from some black hole emitter weapon out of Star Wars' "science".

 

Good navigators for large ships? Nah, who needs them, everyone can do pitch perfect turns. In fact, every turn is pitch perfect.

 

What? 300 megatons accumulated mass on a ship as it goes 0.5 Light? Wut R diz physix stoff? Ninety degriz turn, no problem. Crew nut ded, lyke in rial phyzix.

 

 

Again, no G forces, no real reason for fine tuning in Lua scripts.