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Hello there.

 

So there was a new market video today on youtube.

The devs explain the market interface and how you can sell and buy stuff.

Seems pretty simple, but as always, lots of questions arise, the longer I think about a certain mechanic.

So here are my thoughts and questions when it comes to economy:

 

In the video the player has 5.000 credits (or whatever).

If players would have no money right from the start, no one can ever place a buy-order and markets won't work at all.

 

Q1.) Will every new player have the exact same amount of money to start off with ?

Q2.) Will there be any 'money-sources' for players in the game where money can be earned from (total amount of 'money-per-player' is increasing) ?

Q3.) Will there be any 'money-sinks' where money can be destroyed (total amount of 'money-per-player' is decreasing)  ?

 

It really blows my mind when it comes to economy in MUDs (multi user dungeons).

I dont know how this was considered by the devs in other games before, but I think it is very important in terms of economic stability.

 

CASE 1) So what will happen, when the answer to Q1+Q2 is YES and the answer to Q3 is NO ? (total amount of money will be ALWAYS increasing):

RISK - Due to inflation, the value of money will decrease and new players wont be able to afford things in the game.

 

CASE 2) What will happen, when the answer to Q1+3 is YES and the answer to Q2 is NO ? (total amount of money will be ALWAYS decreasing):

RISK - At a certain point there will be almost no money left in the game, unless new players pop in. And even this short bursts will cease to exist quickly.

 

CASE 3) The answer to Q1 is YES and the answer to Q2+3 is NO ? (amount of 'money-per-player' will ALWAYS BE STABLE):

RISK - New players could be broke quickly because of 'bad decisions'.

CHANCE - Broke players could gather materials or provide service to other players to earn money.

 

CASE 4) A1+2+3 = YES

RISK - Potentially unstable value of money (see CASE1+2).

 

So CASE 3 seems to be safe scenario here.

What do you think ?

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Q1) yes. Obviously. Otherwise ppl would be pissed...

Q2) yes. mine, sell ore. Or buy ore, produce elements and sell those. Or sell ideas. But in the end the basic faucet is always selling ores (and the only one really in a Game without pve)

Q3) yes. Taxes, upgrades of elements (for example territory claim units May need you to burn quanta to get that shield bubble upgrade) are sinks. Destruction of ships is No sink but a faucet. 

 

It all depending players and this works already really good in Eve - there are more faucets there though

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Thanks for the quick response.

 

Market in general is neither a faucet nor a sink imo because the total amount of money in the game stays the same.

Q2 meant any faucet (money-source) beside markets (call it 'global-faucet' if you will).

From what you explained, I tend to call it CASE2 (no 'global-faucets').

Also how is the destruction of ships a faucet ?

 

Addendum: If there are 'global-faucets' (A2 = YES), players could start off with zero money, but again there could be 'CASE1/4-problems'.

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More ships killed -> prices of materials Go up -> more ppl want to get rich -> more ppl mine and sell their stocks -> more money generated

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1 minute ago, Mephetic said:

At 6:15 in this old video, they explain that there will be NPC orders to start things off and not much more.

https://ksr-video.imgix.net/projects/2469359/video-702694-h264_high.mp4

 

 

You See that in the new video too. Orders of 99days are most likely from bots....when you consider eve market npcs

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Steven is asking about the money that magically enter and leave dual universe. Money lost by a player and gained by another is still in the world. Faucets are money generated without anybody losing money. ship being destroyed doesn't create any money, it doesn't destroy money either. NPC orders are money added to the game artificially, that's what faucets are, and what OP worries about.

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

More ships killed -> prices of materials Go up -> more ppl want to get rich -> more ppl mine and sell their stocks -> more money generated

I can see your point. But again: selling stuff doesnt generate money at all. Its just transfered to another player. :-)

Maybe I'm missing something.

I never played EVE.

The video made it clearer to me.

So I guess they will have those NPC-traders (global-faucets) to initialize a self-sustaining economy in the starting phase and to maintain balance further on.

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Just now, Steven_T said:

selling stuff doesnt generate money at all. Its just transfered to another player. :-)

That's why there are NPC bots to sell to. To kickstart the economy. To generate money. Player to Player trades will only be viable (cheaper to sell to/buy from another player) once there's enough quanta ingame and once the mining ops of orgs kick in and actually sell those in the market (instead of using those materials for themselves)

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7 minutes ago, Mephetic said:

Steven is asking about the money that magically enter and leave dual universe. Money lost by a player and gained by another is still in the world. Faucets are money generated without anybody losing money. ship being destroyed doesn't create any money, it doesn't destroy money either. NPC orders are money added to the game artificially, that's what faucets are, and what OP worries about.

Exactly.

So OPs are those magicians in the background ?

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

That's why there are NPC bots to sell to. To kickstart the economy. To generate money. Player to Player trades will only be viable (cheaper to sell to/buy from another player) once there's enough quanta ingame and once the mining ops of orgs kick in and actually sell those in the market (instead of using those materials for themselves)

Ok. I can see now.

That is, what I was asking for.

Thank you.

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Just now, Mephetic said:

Nah op is you : P "original poster", or "original post" the first message of the thread. 

LOL. I thought OP for Operator.

All right then. :-)

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We don't know much about it. The first "NPCs" are there to speed up the process, selling stuff that people can't yet craft etc.. then when the players get their own economy going they will either reduce or remove them. I guess they could also keep a few of them to make sure that the inflation/deflation is kept in check if they feel the need for it. But they are aiming at fully player driven economy.

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Ok. They even mentioned in the video that they are planning to remove NPC-traders at a certain point in the game.

Until then they will have to maintain a 'good population' of products and money on the server I guess.

That is where the subscription-based model comes into the mix. ;-)

 

Thanks for your answers.

I think those guys made their homework.

Looking forward to the game.

 

CU

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What do you guys think are the chances that there are things like banks, stock (and commodities) markets, black markets, insurance, etc.  How detailed will the economics simulation be?  

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@BandaTalk

Black market is a thing always have in any game with or without a work economic in game. It born to satisfied the greed of the player so yeah it iwll ahve inside DU but it will be something more detail as DAC is a part of game.
There will clear stock/ ... market in DU as it is a way for player to trade with other but the thing is how it will be born ?! IT will born on the demand of the market. At the beginning you will see there will be small trade like i need this of your and you need this of mine so let trade. But after the start stage and piracy appear ( a lot of Org in DU have set this as a way to grow and one of them is very big ) also the scale will increase will create market. And black market is for people who dont trade in the light ( high wanted , got a lot of bounty on their head, ... ) and the so...
About insurance ? Lucky that Dev have see this part and agree to create a function for people who want to work in this side.
And about the bank... not much clear as much people here is from EVE (one of the most successful MMO and working economic ) not have a nice look about bank as this is a virtual world so do the responsibility.

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