unown Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 19 minutes ago, dw_ace_918 said: Good org bad org happy org sad org, my org your org their org our org, Who has seen it, who has done it? Why they succeed why they fail? How can they be good for all? Who will be there when I fall? Surviving Orgs Survival, a numbers game For this game is a game of Resources Ruled by time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 Hello @unown006. Big numbers. Sounds about right. Survival, yes. What about rebuilding civilization? Anyway, I added a rule, I'll mention, please don't use the "QUOTE" tool, use the name callout. I hope the big ones ain't run by big ... um.. jerks. Just give me org and let me build. Additionally, something about no one should own organizations if everyone don't own it. Power to the players! Community above candidates! Freedom and justice for all! Can orgs do it? Is it possible? What's the incentive? Why do people hate gov org? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Cain Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 People hate governments in general. Probably because they steal about 50% of your income and call that tax and after that add 20% vat on almost anything because they dont know how to use cash and use way too much and then call that tax too making about 65.50% of your income government property dw_ace_918 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 @Aaron Cain man, sounds like they're deep in your pockets and your a..anyway. I hope they give good benefits, roads, I bet roads are nice out there. So I can just change the name to Community org. People don't hate community right, or civilization org, makes it sound like it needs to be more big and more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreVamore Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 I dont hate gov orgs, what i do hate is having one forced on me when there is no need for it in a sandbox game. I would freel the same if i joined the game to find any form of ruling structure over me. The moment this happens is the moment DU looses its right to call itself a sandbox game. And im sure the moment that hapoens DU will lose many supporters. I cant believe you still dont unferstand this? Lethys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Cain Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 right! And if its voluntary you can make it work. Call it day-one-community and it might work dw_ace_918 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreVamore Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, Aaron Cain said: right! And if its voluntary you can make it work. Call it day-one-community and it might work Hehe and assuming it has no other game mechanic advantages compared to any other org would make it just another option for new players to consider joining, or not. Problem solved dw_ace_918 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 @CoreVamore I do understand your point, I just disagree. It's like we're talking about two different things. I respect your stand friend. Either way ruling structures will be there in the form of other players orgs, as I see it, and they gonna take my stuff, my land and my freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 A community where we can all belong, I can dig that. ? That's what I've been saying, maybe my English is bad. ????⚽️⚾️???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethys Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 Still don't get it. If you want a democratic org with all that inclusiveness thingy and "all players are the same" vibe then just make that org and advertise for it. And don't charge anyone anything because you know... that's stealing. Just do it and see where it goes. If ppl want it, they'll join you. Warden 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreVamore Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 If you are scared of losing your percieved freedom and stuff then stay in the safe zones. Thats why NQ built them. Freedom is a state of mind anyway. Lethys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 Harsh my mellow guys. And your face, if I never see that emogy again it'll be too soon @CoreVamore. And @Lethys, you tell me this all the time. Maybe I'll get lucky and join the org that wins. But seriously, it's been fun. ?️♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtuozzo Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Aaron Cain said: People hate governments in general. Probably because they steal about 50% of your income and call that tax and after that add 20% vat on almost anything because they dont know how to use cash and use way too much and then call that tax too making about 65.50% of your income government property But you get quite a bit in return for that There's a causal relation between taxes and both economic and social development We often overlook that, primarily because taxes tend to be piled up constructs which become overly complicated turning things into a twisted game. In our out of game, there's a wide range of interesting correlations. I don't doubt there will be corporations which make use of taxation mechanisms. Ideology is nothing but another church after all, and ultimately there's bills. A corporation which focuses on defense or offense will end up with SRP mechanisms (ship replacement payout), money has to come from somewhere, and economies of scale are a factor. Contract payment, ransoms, ventures, tons of options. But it still comes down to governance of internal economics. DU is a petri dish of human behaviour, individual and organised. The more advanced the activity, the more complex the dependancies, the more important internal economics become. Whether we like it or not, hierarchy in organisation becomes a requirement. Social psychology dictates that this will be one of the lines of divide between types of corporations as players organisate them. Lethys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unown Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 Got to love the romans for inventinting taxes @Aaron Cain dw_ace_918 and Aaron Cain 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtuozzo Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 2 hours ago, unown006 said: Got to love the romans for inventinting taxes @Aaron Cain Bonobos impose taxes - it didn't start with homo sapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 Hello all! So I added a rule yesterday for this topic. I'm asking everyone to please avoid using the "QUOTE" tool, and use the @name call out to communicate to users. I've seen quote used well and spring, and I've seen it abused. Name callout, cuz we are talking to people, not strings of words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtuozzo Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 22 minutes ago, dw_ace_918 said: Hello all! So I added a rule yesterday for this topic. I'm asking everyone to please avoid using the "QUOTE" tool, and use the @name call out to communicate to users. I've seen quote used well and spring, and I've seen it abused. Name callout, cuz we are talking to people, not strings of words. quoting does have a purpose, besides that it's a matter of individual perspective. On top of that, it's handy for when people edit their posts ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 Hey @virtuozzo, I'm just asking please don't use quote tool. It's hard to follow a bunch of people "yelling at clouds." Mostly it keeps unnecessary reputation of what is already there and help keep the number of pages down. If other people want to join the topic, they would be able to follow better imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtuozzo Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 Matter of perspective. I find it easier, and more constructive, to follow a topic and the evolution of any discussion within, by using the quote function as provided by the forum itself. If you ever wanted another example of why any pursuit of virtual governance for individual perception is arbitrary, now you've got one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 @Nanoman I did read those devblogs. I have looked into different orgs also. I agree that there are large possibilities and options already planned for orgs. For me, the main focus of the game is Civilization Building, and rebuilding Civilization as well as a strong focus on community and player created content. I saw this from the kickstart to the devblog. Organizations don't seem to final and complete at this stage. I think a lot is assumed based on the standard player expectations and desires, which obviously have to be strongly considered into every aspect of the game I suppose. They did say there is a lot of risk they are talking in general to the creation of the game itself. I also understand that it would be impassable to please everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 @virtuozzo I can see the value of the quote tool if it's use well for small point on point organization in a response. You're alright man, you always have a lot to add to the conversation. I don't know if I'm the best person to argue those points. Does anyone think there's any value, in any way to this idea of community org or suggested tools? Finally, I'll end with a quote: "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thainz Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 On 5/1/2018 at 6:42 PM, CoreVamore said: Um, just nope, it imposes limits on a sandbox game, which by its nature is open ended and can end up being communist, capitalist, democratic, fascist, demonic,. angelic, religious, agnostic etc etc etc. The worlds/systems will be what they will be, and just like in the real world as DU expands, I'm sure there will be a mixture of the above throughout DU If you want the above then join an org that wants the above. Simplz Making rules about leader ship does impose limits on a sand box game you are totally right! but this does make me wonder, why the lack of automation ability? Lets look at this from another perspective, real world vs dual universe. The real world did have lots of manual workers manning large machines individually but that was in the industrial age, where coal power was the main source of electricity and steam was the main work horse of factories. Dual universe is on a much grander level of existence, there are space ships for crying out loud! I do see the reason for limiting pvp AI but as far as workers go, I think that AI or at least automation/ drones should be allowed. In the United States we have issues with employment and wages. This is because of the automation in blue color jobs like manufacturing and mining. However these are jobs people want because they make money from them. In dual universe you will be paying a subscription fee every month to play the game. Now I must ask this question, why would people pay to play a game every month where they do menial tasks. the point of Dual universe as I see it is to make a economy, this economy does not rely on people getting resources, it depends on people playing the game, and trading among-st each other. having menial jobs will not encourage people to play the game. The end result will be no-mans sky, a huge universes with no players to inhabit it. Lets now look at other games, first of all Planet Side 2. Why does this game work? It is free to play but pay to win, those who play for free are grunts in an army. Those who pay are commanders or especially powerful players. Shooting and fighting is much more fun than mining resources with no end in sight. Next game: Minecraft. this is a game that dual universe is often compared to. so what is the point of mine craft? once again automation. mods are created in mine craft to have an even higher ability to automate mining and resource production. The economy's in Dual universe should not be based on man power but instead ingenuity and automation. although LUA script is somewhat limited it is still powerful enough to make simple AI's and is most defiantly powerful enough to control autonomous robots and drones. I made a LUA AI that learned in 5 generations how to play tetris almost perfectly. And I have also made robots do simple tasks With LUA. My final thought is that Automation will be what makes, or what breaks, the player count in dual universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtuozzo Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 24 minutes ago, Thainz said: Making rules about leader ship does impose limits on a sand box game you are totally right! but this does make me wonder, why the lack of automation ability? Lets look at this from another perspective, real world vs dual universe. The real world did have lots of manual workers manning large machines individually but that was in the industrial age, where coal power was the main source of electricity and steam was the main work horse of factories. Dual universe is on a much grander level of existence, there are space ships for crying out loud! I do see the reason for limiting pvp AI but as far as workers go, I think that AI or at least automation/ drones should be allowed. In the United States we have issues with employment and wages. This is because of the automation in blue color jobs like manufacturing and mining. However these are jobs people want because they make money from them. In dual universe you will be paying a subscription fee every month to play the game. Now I must ask this question, why would people pay to play a game every month where they do menial tasks. the point of Dual universe as I see it is to make a economy, this economy does not rely on people getting resources, it depends on people playing the game, and trading among-st each other. having menial jobs will not encourage people to play the game. The end result will be no-mans sky, a huge universes with no players to inhabit it. Lets now look at other games, first of all Planet Side 2. Why does this game work? It is free to play but pay to win, those who play for free are grunts in an army. Those who pay are commanders or especially powerful players. Shooting and fighting is much more fun than mining resources with no end in sight. Next game: Minecraft. this is a game that dual universe is often compared to. so what is the point of mine craft? once again automation. mods are created in mine craft to have an even higher ability to automate mining and resource production. The economy's in Dual universe should not be based on man power but instead ingenuity and automation. although LUA script is somewhat limited it is still powerful enough to make simple AI's and is most defiantly powerful enough to control autonomous robots and drones. I made a LUA AI that learned in 5 generations how to play tetris almost perfectly. And I have also made robots do simple tasks With LUA. My final thought is that Automation will be what makes, or what breaks, the player count in dual universe. Always be careful in establishing analogies between the real and the virtual world. Yes, it is a sandbox, so it is a pressure cooker of human behaviour served with a sauce of environment and a few touches of mechanical spices. But the real world is already being made, and has been subject to that for a great while. This virtual world isn't even there yet, so choices for development paths remain. In regards to automation: 1. Effort makes for a deeper game experience 2. It promotes a lot of people towards teaming up 3. It stimulates others to invest in multiple accounts 4. The game is in its infancy so there is no real roadmap yet as to what players will be enabled to in regards to automation One of the potential pitfalls of DU is in its crafting / voxel system. In terms of implementation it attracts a lot of player types who lean towards solo / introverted gameplay. Good game design can overcome that, and DU is outlined to be pretty open and brutal so a lot of that can easily be overcome by means of positive stimuli for such player types towards multiplay / organisational play. Automation is a big part of discussions on that. But that is NQ's domain really. Their currently available statements and information on LUA scripting do appear to provide interesting opportunities in these regards. But it will be a fine line to walk between human engagement and automation of processes. Labour in DU strikes me as not so much a balance between the two, but a combination. I guess we'll find out somewhere during beta. The same is likely to apply to economics. But there it does get a bit more murky. Every game attracts abuse. DU will attract people who try to abuse the economics angle, and since NQ gets to learn from quite a few previous sandboxes and their historic challenges on these matters I'm getting the idea that economics is more likely to be a domain of teamwork, rather than individual + automation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 @Nanoman thanks for the link. As far as the idea I have been proposing, I tend to agree with you. I can't preach player voting power and community then say except when I don't like the majority consensus against it. If you wanted to dig through the forum, you probably would find the core of my reasoning and various aspects of how it would be different. I'm pretty much stepping out of the way if anyone wanted to add to my side of this or offer up other ideas on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dw_ace_918 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 I believe @Thainz post was meant for the Robotic workforce and factories forum by @unown006 so check that out if your interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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