Penalty for death

[gyurka66]

Death without penalty is meaningless so it would be cool to get some long lasting effect on death. Ideas below.

 

Resurrection timer: after 3 deaths you would have to wait 60 minutes or so. of course you could play an alt character until.

 

Skill penalty: i think i dont have to explain this

 

changed appearance: i mean scars and such things

[Kongou]

When the resurrection nodes bring you back from a death, you will have chances to drop items, lose them in the respawn, and potentially lose skill points.

 

Although I think it would be really bad if there do end up being purchasable cosmetic items that could be lost in this way, thats just a side note.

 

Point is there are these repercussions for death, you can check out what they are thinking here https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/20-devblog-resurrection-node-mechanics/?hl=%2Bresurrection+%2Bnode , the resurrection devblog

[Anaximander]

I have suggested a "shell-shock" gameplay mechanism.


Example.


1 ) Player dies. They resurrect, the experience is scaring them for a while, reducing their effectiveness in combat by 10%. This means they take longer to fully lock on a target, or move slower, or pilot a ship less efficiently.

2) Player dies again before the first Shell-Shock wears off. They become less effective, up to 100% less effectiveness, which makes them pretty much like having no skillpoints ever invested until the debuff wears off.



This can give players in a siege a certain amount of "lives" until they stop being effective and balances the home advantage of respawn to the invaders having no resurrection nodes in supply



Also, the Devs have said that you may lose some item or two upon dying. This makes combat even more of a risk. Probably money will drop on the spot, to encourage players to use banks run by their factions I mean, don't carry too much with you, it's a sandbox game.

[GalloInfligo]

I just hope its a high enough penalty that when we kill a griefer, they dont like it.

[Anaximander]

I just hope its a high enough penalty that when we kill a griefer, they dont like it.

Maybe tie it to a stat, like, the more people you kill the more item you lose upon death I mean, the ship loss aloone witl be enough, but still.

[GalloInfligo]

I dont know, i have not put a lot of thought i,to it otger than that lol

[DaSchiz]

Well if you die you lose your ship obviously ... and anything you have in cargo or on person I would guess.  A timed debuff is good but I am ok with it or without.   I do not like the idea of losing skillpoints however ESPECIALLY since they are gained real time.

 

IDK about the stacking though b/c that simply encourages griefers.  If they know where the respawn point is what is to stop them from camping and continually killing the same person, all the while the person keeps losing effectiveness to defend.

 

I'm all for PvP gameplay of course but not continuous killing of a dead corpse.

[ostris]

Assuming the game is full loot/lose your ship when you die that is already a pretty huge penalty. You will have to respawn that the closest node which will be a big deal. If you are attacking and have brought a node with you it cost you a lot to do so and you should benefit from it. I honestly dont think any other penalty is worth it I would have to see how zerg style combat would, work bringing several nodes and just zerging with really cheap ships. If that is possible perhaps some kind of node usage cooldown could be implented thats shard between nodes that are within a certain distance.

 

Assuming the res node mechanics are well though out and dont allow cheesy situations like zerging i think no penalty other than loss of items/ship is needed.

[wesbruce]

Maybe tie it to a stat, like, the more people you kill the more item you lose upon death I mean, the ship loss aloone witl be enough, but still.

How would the game know your a griefer and not a very good security guard or organisation warrior or bounty hunter? It will need a reputation system of some complex kind.

[wesbruce]

For combat we will need some kind of temporary battle respawn. A deploy-able stretcher/ Resurrection unit with a limited range. Medical skills may give higher level of retained items, lower debuffs and longer range. This makes your medics vital in the battle because they create and deploy the things. Other wise battles will be locked in around the main spawns like planetside 2 with out sunderers or planet entropia.  

[GalloInfligo]

For combat we will need some kind of temporary battle respawn. A deploy-able stretcher/ Resurrection unit with a limited range. Medical skills may give higher level of retained items, lower debuffs and longer range. This makes your medics vital in the battle because they create and deploy the things. Other wise battles will be locked in around the main spawns like planetside 2 with out sunderers or planet entropia.

They have mentioned somewhere that you go to a ressurection/clone pod, the closest one to your death location

[Limyaael]

For combat we will need some kind of temporary battle respawn. A deploy-able stretcher/ Resurrection unit with a limited range. Medical skills may give higher level of retained items, lower debuffs and longer range. This makes your medics vital in the battle because they create and deploy the things. Other wise battles will be locked in around the main spawns like planetside 2 with out sunderers or planet entropia.  

There's actually a ship design I've had floating around in my head about this.

 

In battle, the easiest way to secure victory will be to simply have your army respawn faster and be able to return to combat as quickly as possible (also, find the enemy resurrection nodes and destroy them with spies). But when they respawn their ships are still drifting in space, so you'll need fighers for them. Thus, one would need an enormous (>10km across probably) capital ship mostly just full of resurrection nodes and fighters. Put it halfway across the system so you don't need ten destroyers protecting it and you could win the battle.

 

Basically armies will want as many resurrection nodes as they can, and as close to the battle as is feasible.

[Hotwingz]

I think loosing part of your inventory is punishment enough.

 

Loosing skillpoints just seems too much.

Remember when you die you get transported all the way back to the resurrection node.

You just lost part of your inventory, mode of transportation and whatever equipment you had deployed in the world. Granted your attacker will most likely have to hack it but still. Seems like a harsh enough punishment to me.

 

Waiting on arbitrary timers after death isnt all that fun in my opinion.

[gyurka66]

I think loosing part of your inventory is punishment enough.

 

Loosing skillpoints just seems too much.

Remember when you die you get transported all the way back to the resurrection node.

You just lost part of your inventory, mode of transportation and whatever equipment you had deployed in the world. Granted your attacker will most likely have to hack it but still. Seems like a harsh enough punishment to me.

 

Waiting on arbitrary timers after death isnt all that fun in my opinion.

But you could play on alt accounts.

[Hotwingz]

But you could play on alt accounts.

I doubt you'd find many players enjoying the idea of having to alt because of some game mechanic.

 

You are free to come up with crazy death penalties but realistically I dont think NQ will go for it. If you have the time, there are a few youtube interviews with JC. In one of them he speaks a little about the death mechanic. From how he explained it I did not get the impression he wants to introduce crazy hardcore death mechanics.

 

As I explained in my previous post if you combine all consequences of death I dont think it needs to be more punishing. But you are free to disagree.

[Anaximander]

How would the game know your a griefer and not a very good security guard or organisation warrior or bounty hunter? It will need a reputation system of some complex kind.

I don't know, how did Ultima, Lineage 2 and any other open world pvp game didn't turn you Red after striking back? It's easy to determine who initiated the fight good sir.

 

But still a good security guard may have people putting bounties on their head.

 

Imagine being Texas Ranger in space, kicking ass from one end of the galaxy to the other. All them pirates may put a lot of bounties on your head for revenge. After all, a PK is a PK. One side's hero is the villain to the other.

[DevisDevine]

Loosing items and possibly ships can be a big loss or maybe not. I dont mind this, however I am against permanent penalties. So a permanent 10% increase in skill training time would be terrible. We all make mistakes, and Im sure there will be a lot in the begining.

 

I liked eves system of having a clone thata good ebeough, but it may not fit in the lore well. Maybe losing skills learned in the last X amount of time, and it could be reduced by skills.

 

I also wouldnt mind penalties as suggested. 10% slower training time for a day. or longer lock time, slower movement, lower carrying capacity. Could be interesting. It would allow you to wear down that attacking army as each time they respawn they become less effective.

[Shynras]

There's not a "chance" or a "partial loss of items", you lose your entire inventory. 

Losing skills is too much, losing effectiveness for an X amount of time or being unable to play your character is pointless and annoying, while cosmetic degradation like scars could work, but still, not first on the list of things to do. 

 

Losing your ship/station/inventory is enough as a penalty, there's no need for more. If dieing is too much of a problem, people will just avoid PVP, and we don't want that.

[wesbruce]

There's not a "chance" or a "partial loss of items", you lose your entire inventory. 

Losing skills is too much, losing effectiveness for an X amount of time or being unable to play your character is pointless and annoying, while cosmetic degradation like scars could work, but still, not first on the list of things to do. 

 

Losing your ship/station/inventory is enough as a penalty, there's no need for more. If dieing is too much of a problem, people will just avoid PVP, and we don't want that.

Yep that sounds like JC's plan but it means to do even a small battle you may need a hundred full sets of guns and gear in a armoured warehouse on the actual battle field. 

 

I think by mid alpha a semi-locked grave will be clearly needed. The prevalence of that in minecraft is telling. Death chest was one of the very first minecraft mods. Loosing everything is a recipe for hundreds rage quitting. 

[Velenka]

I agree with wesbruce and Shynras. Losing items, equipment, vehicles, etc is enough of a motivator to avoid death.

[Warden]

Full or partial inventory loss (or damage) seems reasonable to me. Keeps an economy and interaction going to some larger extend at the risk of more hostility if there is a chance for players to drop items upon death.

[Anonymous]

I personally think we are thinking about this the wrong way (with the exception of deliberate suicide - that's a place to put a penalty IMO, but not the point I am making).

 

We have an in game mechanic which is clear - you resurrect if you're near the safe zone. Resurrection machines are strategic items, expensive to run etc. When you die you go to the nearest one, which if you are exploring the big bad word, could be fricken miles away. But at the end of the day - why penalise those who die?

 

If there is no penalty for dying AT ALL other than community shame, lost time and annoyance etc, then everyone wins. Really - every game mechanic out there handling death via XP loss, equipment decay etc, are really just putting a grind treadmill in place, which leads to players getting annoyed.

 

So what if we reversed the premise. What if the penalty for death, is ultimately, death.

 

By which I mean - we know the system/game keeps tracks of everything people do. Games are like that - it's event logging or whatever, but there is always a record.

 

So:

* Accidental / misfortune death - no penalty - you're just an idiot and we all laugh at you. You don't lose items really - you have a morpher after all. You don't lose experience (stupid mechanic anyway - the point of death is that to learn from the experience), you don't lose skills etc.
 

* Suicide - I believe this is where your penalise people - if for no other reason than making sure suicide isn't a casual thing and has consequences (which is an important message both in game and out)
 

* Murder et al. - at the end of the day, this is what we are talking about really. I've got a whole slew of ideas there, a full working sub-system which makes a law enforcement / investigation industry in game - but the key point - we should punish the perps, not the victims.

 

Thoughts?

[Shynras]

Full loot is not that harsh when the stuff you lose can be obtained in a reasonable amount of time. Minecraft is an example, there are ways to make full loot viable. In return it gives meaning to pvp, economy and make the fun last longer). I know that some people are scared to lose their stuff, even pvpers to a certain degree, but that feeling is something beautiful that you'll not find in many other titles. People has just to go in, fight and die, without caring about their stuff (just bring wih you the essentials), and they will have so much fun, that they'll do it again. That's the idea

[Hotwingz]

Yea I agree.

Though I think loosing inventory and whatever you had deployed in the world is enough.

 

While I understand there are many games where you loose everything from inventory to whatever you have equiped as weapons and armor, I think loosing weapons and armor is 1 step too far.

 

But thats just my opinion.

Either way I'll adapt.

 

Like they say in Eve; dont fly what you cant afford to loose.

[Lethys]

 

* Murder et al. - at the end of the day, this is what we are talking about really. I've got a whole slew of ideas there, a full working sub-system which makes a law enforcement / investigation industry in game - but the key point - we should punish the perps, not the victims.

 

Thoughts?

 

It's a sandbox. Why punish killers with debuffs? Why not just setting up a player run police to kill those people first? Why not defending your dudes yourself? Why not accepting contracts miners set up to protect them? Why not hiring Mercs? Why not being smart and think about safety before you go mining?

 

All above can be copy/past to building stuff, mining, running around, exploring, etc.

 

With debuffs on the killer you only generate a society that will attack in waves or with such huge numbers that those debuffs don't count. PLUS you are killing EVERY emergent gameplay! So no, that's just a totally bad idea and against the whole idea of a sandbox with emergent gameplay.