How will you prevent people from getting harassed, trolled and griefed?

[Majestic]

Terms of Service.

[Qddiez]

Well, it's really simple. The punishment will come after the "crime". In other words, if a group of players decides to grief a faction's outpost, that faction will send out its fleet and level the griefers' crib. It's really that simple

Maybe it would be simple if everybody would be more or less on the same level power wise but what about when faction A is 10x or more faction B? Faction B could ally itself or something but zergs will always rule at the end.

Imo it would be so much better if there would be a game mechanic that would actually make consider pros and cons of attacking someone form a strategically point of view and not just for the lulz of it.

Balancing a game play well is far away from "simple" and something most MMOs are still trying to achieve.

[Anaximander]

Maybe it would be simple if everybody would be more or less on the same level power wise but what about when faction A is 10x or more faction B? Faction B could ally itself or something but zergs will always rule at the end.

Imo it would be so much better if there would be a game mechanic that would actually make consider pros and cons of attacking someone form a strategically point of view and not just for the lulz of it.

Balancing a game play well is far away from "simple" and something most MMOs are still trying to achieve.

Have you met Black Ops? A faction's weaknesses increase with their population. More internal strifes, more people high up belittling lower rank guys in the organisation. This is an actual thing. A faction with 10x people that another faction is simply 10x more prone to infiltration, since they seem to scoop up everyone. 

 

Welcome to the amazing world of sandbox MMOS and its seedy underbelly, where you got sociopaths infiltrating your organisation, befriending you, becoming your friends, just to sabotage you during a siege.

 

What? Will you ban people from entering your org? Will you ask for violations of international law by asking the Devs to give you the IPs of another player?

 

If people are stupid, they will do stupid things. If you see a guy telling "HEY! Give me 100,000 SpaceBucks and I will give you back 200,000  SpaceBucks in a week!", that guy is scamming you and if you fall for it, you are stupid. The Devs can't ban chat, nor they can police people who took advantage of your naivety. 

 

I do take advantage of people's naivety in PvP by bluffing, should I be banned to be prevented from exploting a guy's inability to grasp game mechanics and acting too soon? Should I be banned because I keep running and drawing my foes into ambushes around corners?

 

No. A sandbox game has a sort of PvP unseen in other titles like WoW or whatever Korean MMO aside from Lineage 2. Economic Warfare. It's essentially, trolling the market to create monopoly. What, should it also be banned because people have no idea how money works?

 

And the problem with a zerg is you gotta buy in bulk player-wise. Zergs are the easiest way to sabotage your own organisation in the long run.

 

So what, will you ask for instances to be in the game to prevent an "unfair" fight? If you do, you miss the point of DUAL as a game.

 

And as of a last point, the combat system in conjunction with the way the server treats updates to the player is the strategic value.  You can read up on the devblogs, see how they explain it in their youtube videos, and you'll see that being a pirate is not an easy thing in DUAL. It's in fact, an actual high risk, high reward business. And this is also why Zergs don't work. The fleets will need tactics, Zergs have NO tactics, just pell mell charge against the enemy.

 

 

[Silmerias]

Posting in a carebears thread that are afraid to play a game that could be unsafe for them... Yeah pixels ships are serious business.

 

Sorry I'm a bit aggressive here but I saw that kind of request too much in games.

 

You don't want to get griefed ? Then play smart, don't be a console player, join a corp, don't fly alone, keep an eye on your scanner, don't go AFK or AFK farming because if you do then you deserve to be destroyed.. I don't know, but seriously I'm done with people who want to play a game as a farming game half AFK because PvP is too hard for them.

 

I agree the universe need some systems where people can start their journey without being chain killed. But... This need to be only FEW like starter constellation. Outside of it need to be full PvP because there is no honor to get rare resources if there is no challenge.

[Qddiez]

Sociopaths? Splendid!

Good thing there are other sandbox MMOS out there that attract less or no sociopaths thanks to their well thought game mechanic.

It's not a question of being a carebear (to each his own playstyle) but rather of being griefed/ganked by your average 12years old moron (no offense, just a stereotype but somehow true), without consequences, just because they can.

I think I'm done here, have fun!

[Anaximander]

Sociopaths? Splendid!

Good thing there are other sandbox MMOS out there that attract less or no sociopaths thanks to their well thought game mechanic.

It's not a question of being a carebear (to each his own playstyle) but rather of being griefed/ganked by your average 12years old moron (no offense, just a stereotype but somehow true), without consequences, just because they can.

I think I'm done here, have fun!

The average 12 year old will be minecrafting in DUAL. It's a fact. :V

[wesbruce]

A 70 km radius planet has 61000 square km to mine. A solar system will be bigger. Sensor ranges will not be infinite unless its a really big ship. You should be able to go out and mine if your sneaky. Don't pick the closest, easiest, most obvious place to mine.

Ship stealth should be a major part of PvE game play. Be the asteroids not a big target near it.

In the videos the main dev seems to have a focus on teaming up but talked about solo play. Hiding in a hole or having a fast sneaky ship with rear firing turrets. Let the pirates fly into a hailstorm of exploding rounds while chasing you. Solo is not his first option but it is a option. In some eve systems I spot mine, don't loiter long enough for them to track you down. Grab and run. Fast mining will matter in DU space. 

[LynkxDev]

There isn't clear by now how will work the "Faction safe towers" 
but besides the factions i concern about solo players that hate PVP but love sandboxing, 
that kind of solitaire ppl that don't join faction, and prefer to play alone in peace.

 

I'm most solo player myself, but I Like PVP and can tolerate mining on pvp zones taking my chances,
since i can have a safe house where i cans store all my resources,

 

But I don't like the idea that my inventory will be droped and I can lose my endgame tools and ekips for a party of Nub jerks, also this system of drop inventory will create a "culture of aggression" where lazy players instead of mining/craft will start to "farm players" considering there will be no punishment mechanic for the PK.

 

I like games where you can find some one in the wilds and speak with him, not needing to rage at him as a kill or be killed game.

 

[Anaximander]

There isn't clear by now how will work the "Faction safe towers" 

but besides the factions i concern about solo players that hate PVP but love sandboxing, 

that kind of solitaire ppl that don't join faction, and prefer to play alone in peace.

 

I'm most solo player myself, but I Like PVP and can tolerate mining on pvp zones taking my chances,

since i can have a safe house where i cans store all my resources,

 

But I don't like the idea that my inventory will be droped and I can lose my endgame tools and ekips for a party of Nub jerks, also this system of drop inventory will create a "culture of aggression" where lazy players instead of mining/craft will start to "farm players" considering there will be no punishment mechanic for the PK.

 

I like games where you can find some one in the wilds and speak with him, not needing to rage at him as a kill or be killed game.

 

In the wilds, the only things that can converse are guns and my gun knows only one, loud, word.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And it ain't "hello". :V

[guttertrash]

 

But I don't like the idea that my inventory will be droped and I can lose my endgame tools and ekips for a party of Nub jerks, also this system of drop inventory will create a "culture of aggression" where lazy players instead of mining/craft will start to "farm players" considering there will be no punishment mechanic for the PK.

 

Hi, i'm the type of person you are worried about. I can safely say that the loot drops will have little to no effect on my motivation to hunt other players. 

[Sekmeth]

+1

 

There has to be a limit on what is considered accpetable gameplay behaviour.

 Why (or even how) would you create a magical definition of what is "acceptable gameplay behaviour"? In a game like this it would (and should) be up to the players to enforce any ingame laws. If you dont like pink ships ban them in your territory, if you demand that any station in your territory must have 7 discoballs then enforce it. 

 

If you want to mine and build "in peace" find a group of players that would let you. You could mine and build in peace, and supply the other players with means to defend you and others (or wage a war on the pink ships)

 

Offensive I have no issues with, as long as it steers clear of the normal derogatory terms that are outlined in most EULA's these days. If people offend you, block them, or go blow their stuff up (or both)  . 

[Warden]

 Why (or even how) would you create a magical definition of what is "acceptable gameplay behaviour"? In a game like this it would (and should) be up to the players to enforce any ingame laws. If you dont like pink ships ban them in your territory, if you demand that any station in your territory must have 7 discoballs then enforce it. 

 

If you want to mine and build "in peace" find a group of players that would let you. You could mine and build in peace, and supply the other players with means to defend you and others (or wage a war on the pink ships)

 

Offensive I have no issues with, as long as it steers clear of the normal derogatory terms that are outlined in most EULA's these days. If people offend you, block them, or go blow their stuff up (or both)  . 

 

Pretty much the best approach to "emergent gameplay" is to let the players police as much as possible.

 

This approach is not good or useful for all games - but for this type, I personally think it is. Of course someone could come up horrible scenarios and hypothetical situations, but on average, to quote a certain someone, "It just works."

 

I like to think "safe spaces" will eventually be established and policed by players - plenty of different gameplay preferences and already existing projects already hint strongly at this. If you are unhappy, you could also complain or stay away from the game - or you can plunge right into it and support players who try to create said orderly or policed areas, aka do something about it rather than wait. When in doubt, do something about it. My advice anyway.

[Lethys]

We had this discussion in Eve like 5000 times.

 

Solo players:

Be solo, fight solo, trade solo, mine solo. All good. But be SMART about it. Take precautions. Think before you just fly off and then lose all your stuff. I lived like 5 months alone in a wormhole in Eve (remote area, no easy logistics, no ammo, no repairs basically) and lost nothing because I knew the place I was going to. Ppl who just want to do stuff NOW and ignore the game mechanics get killed. They whine and 2 months later we can play hello kitty online because some whiners and bad, dumb ppl can't work out a proper way to understand game mechanics

 

Griefers:

Yeah they are there (I'm occasionally one myself) and its more fun when ppl whine and cry out loud. You do it 'just because' - that's it. Nothing personal. In a sandbox you can do it. Why should you restrict the gameplay of a whole branch just because players can't figure out a way to defend themselves? Learn how to avoid it

 

The most and biggest problem in sandboxes are not griefers or players that want your stuff. The biggest problem in DU will be the blob. Huge masses of players against smaller ones. Who will win? Small gang warfare or traders are difficult to run when all the enemy has got to do its just bring double your team in. THAT'S the problem

[Anaximander]

We had this discussion in Eve like 5000 times.

 

Solo players:

Be solo, fight solo, trade solo, mine solo. All good. But be SMART about it. Take precautions. Think before you just fly off and then lose all your stuff. I lived like 5 months alone in a wormhole in Eve (remote area, no easy logistics, no ammo, no repairs basically) and lost nothing because I knew the place I was going to. Ppl who just want to do stuff NOW and ignore the game mechanics get killed. They whine and 2 months later we can play hello kitty online because some whiners and bad, dumb ppl can't work out a proper way to understand game mechanics

 

Griefers:

Yeah they are there (I'm occasionally one myself) and its more fun when ppl whine and cry out loud. You do it 'just because' - that's it. Nothing personal. In a sandbox you can do it. Why should you restrict the gameplay of a whole branch just because players can't figure out a way to defend themselves? Learn how to avoid it

 

The most and biggest problem in sandboxes are not griefers or players that want your stuff. The biggest problem in DU will be the blob. Huge masses of players against smaller ones. Who will win? Small gang warfare or traders are difficult to run when all the enemy has got to do its just bring double your team in. THAT'S the problem

DUAL is not going for a 1 player 1 dreadnought logic. Ships have crews. Unless blobs in DUAL are more like a squdrom of single-seater jets, I can't see them taking on a flotilla of battleships. You know, one of them has batteries of turrets and pretty much a heck of a lot more armor.

 

 

EVE's tactics revolved around "burn down X target on command". DUAL is a bit more tactical. A good pirate will know to blow the engines off an enemy ship, instead of pew-pew away. The game provides 6 Degrees of Freedom, a coordinated group can take up tasks of blowing up engines and the sorts, others can destroy the turrets on a ship, etc, etc.

 

 

 

The griefer thing can't be changed. If people are naive, they will be destroyed indeed. But, the way DUAL handles FTL, people can be freely carebears and be left inside their territory to work in internal trading and all that, since the most of PvP will be condensed in the border regions between factions.

[Lethys]

Still the problem in war. You can't be effective as a 500man Corp against 5000. Blobs are always a problem in PvP in mmos and sandboxes

[Silmerias]

Still the problem in war. You can't be effective as a 500man Corp against 5000. Blobs are always a problem in PvP in mmos and sandboxes

 

It's not a problem, it's a feature. Also, ask Rooks & Kings, they always found how to fight outnumbered but never outgunned.

[Lethys]

True that, no problem then but I hope they will consider it. Weird things can happen in a sandbox....

[Sekmeth]

Still the problem in war. You can't be effective as a 500man Corp against 5000. Blobs are always a problem in PvP in mmos and sandboxes

In a true sandbox you cannot place too many artificial restrictions without removing integral parts that make the game a true sandbox.

 

While "blobs" can be a powerful thing, it also has its disadvantages. It is a lot harder to manage a group of 5000, than a group of a few hundred. Also it is a lot easier to disrupt the operations of a huge group. While you would obviously loose if you lined your ships up against their line of ships. There are other ways to fight a superior force. The history of guerrilla warfare (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_guerrilla_warfare) shows us that superior numbers does not always guarantee victory.

 

As a smaller force you will need to adapt you tactics and play style to fit the enemy you are up against.

 

The word "Blob" always makes me think of something like this, and this does not seem like an entity that is too hard to fight

 

[Warden]

Regardless of betting on asymmetrical warfare, I would not underestimate a vastly superior entity in numbers, as that at one point usually also brings a vastly superior fire power and other means to fight you to the table.

 

My point being: You can of course try to apply these tactics. But I don't think it helps if you at any time have at least a few dozen, if not hundreds of players actively or indirectly looking for you and your next foothold and in turn always try to disrupt your operations.

 

In the end, action-reaction or natural selection will determine the outcome of such conflicts - you either withstand or perish.

[Sekmeth]

Regardless of betting on asymmetrical warfare, I would not underestimate a vastly superior entity in numbers, as that at one point usually also brings a vastly superior fire power and other means to fight you to the table.

 

My point being: You can of course try to apply these tactics. But I don't think it helps if you at any time have at least a few dozen, if not hundreds of players actively or indirectly looking for you and your next foothold and in turn always try to disrupt your operations.

 

In the end, action-reaction or natural selection will determine the outcome of such conflicts - you either withstand or perish.

Who said anything about underestimating an entity with superior numbers? Underestimating any enemy could always be fatal. But the same goes for underestimating an entity with inferior numbers. 

[Warden]

Who said anything about underestimating an entity with superior numbers? Underestimating any enemy could always be fatal. But the same goes for underestimating an entity with inferior numbers. 

 

Sometimes things or aspects do not have to be specifically mentioned; they could be implied indirectly however. Perhaps they were never meant to be expressed or implied, but through wording or different perceptions, others could think of these things regardless.

 

For those I found it useful to mention that specific part.

[Gerald_Deemer]

The only way to slow down the space pirates is to punish them.

 

OK, it´s a sandbox game where everyone can do what he wants. But if a player is a known pirate he should be judged.

That means no entry into the safe zone, no legal trading anymore and so on.

 

If you have the "fun" to be a pirate and disturb normal palyers you should take the consequences.

If pirates and destroyers won´t get punished in some way, the game will fail. Think about it to recognize that this is the truth.

[Anaximander]

The only way to slow down the space pirates is to punish them.

 

OK, it´s a sandbox game where everyone can do what he wants. But if a player is a known pirate he should be judged.

That means no entry into the safe zone, no legal trading anymore and so on.

 

If you have the "fun" to be a pirate and disturb normal palyers you should take the consequences.

If pirates and destroyers won´t get punished in some way, the game will fail. Think about it to recognize that this is the truth.

Pirates will be sold things if they can shake up the money. Smugglers are the ones to carry the trade with them.

 

Pirates can also have access to safe zones, if they can manage to set up an Arkification fiield. There's no game mechanic to stop that from happening.

 

The game won't fail because pirates run wild. It would fail if piracy is an easy thing to get into, which by the looks of it and how FTL works in DUAL, it's not. So, a high risk / high reward career, won't be the reason for a game to fail. In fact, a pirate is nothing more than a freelancer skirmisher, until they stop being freelancer and they end up being a faction.

 

And the cycle keeps going and going.

[gyurka66]

I think there will be no protection expect ark areas.

I hope there will be some kind of crimefighting from the players otherwise the game will be a chaos.

Just imagine it as a social experiment. a clash between "It's just a game let's GRIEF" type players and the peacekeepers.

[Anaximander]

I think there will be no protection expect ark areas.

I hope there will be some kind of crimefighting from the players otherwise the game will be a chaos.

Just imagine it as a social experiment. a clash between "It's just a game let's GRIEF" type players and the peacekeepers.

The greatest protection is not having an echochamber between one's ears.

 

If you go in the ghetto, at night, dressed in linen, jewelry and money, expect to be mugged.

 

You don't need a safe zone to play safe.