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Astrophil

Losing Money/Quanta Upon Death: A Proposal

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This will be a proposed solution to a problem that NovaQuark has thus far decided not to create: losing money (that is, in-game currency: Quanta) upon death of a player. Let's dive into it.

 

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The Problem

If my sources are correct, NovaQuark has stated before that such items as DACs, Blueprints, Territory Control Units, Resurrection Nodes, and Quanta will not be lost upon death. Most of these items I have listed are justifiably non-lose-able; they are highly rare and valuable or, in some cases, unique items that would dramatically affect the total universal supply of these items. However, that last one, Quanta, seems not to belong on that list. Quanta will be as common as dirt, and the entire economy of DU will circulate around it. It is not rare, and it useful purely as a medium of exchange. So it seems to me that, like any other item, at least some percentage of Quanta should be lost by a player if he/she dies/is killed. A further incentive to encourage safe civilization building practices, of course. And a mechanic to facilitate looting of money, which is really the end goal of most looters. After all, in real life, should you be killed or rendered unconscious, any cash you may be carrying is easy pickings.

 

However, you might say, if a player dies of non-PVP causes, doesn't that create a currency sink? If a player were particularly deep-pocketed, it could even have a significant impact on the universal economy. Surely, this is a problem that we are better off avoiding?

 

The Attempt at a Solution

Allow me the privilege of tickling your economic fancies. We all know, of course, that NQ plans on implementing market bots/non-player-buy-orders initially, in order to inject some currency into the infant economy of the early game. Now let's take that a step further.

 

A player dies, drops random x% of Quanta. First, to facilitate looting, most of his inventory (including that Quanta) will have dropped. In most looting cases, looters will immediately snatch up these items and continue along their merry ways. If it is a non-PVP death (ex. taking too high of a fall, crashing a spaceship), presumably those items will just disappear after x amount of time. But wait! We can't just have Quanta dropping through a wormhole into another (triple?) universe. Oh the humanity economy! 

 

So here is what I propose: instead of vanishing like those other inventory contents, Quanta will be whisked away into one of those nifty market bots that will be present at the beginning of the game to inject currency. These bots will purchase items from sellers on the universal market, thus recirculating the money back into the economy. 

 

Extension

Of course, this all hinges on NQ's willingness to spend development time on this feature, and how to manage the balance between immersion and practicality (there are no market bots in the real world, but there are institutions installed to regulate the economy). This competes against the benefits of such a feature to the game: reality (it makes sense that you should lose money upon a death, even if temporary), the ability to loot money (for all the pirates and scavengers and outlaws), and indeed, the possibility of banking (who would bank money that is perfectly safe in a wallet, save for interest on deposits?)

 

 

Therefore, discuss.

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Industrialists will have billions of quanta 'on them'. Pretty sure loosing that would put people of playing DU, i know i would rethink being in game if it was so.

 

Now if you think of quanta as digital, not physical, like most money is today, then having no quanta drop makes sense.

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2 hours ago, Astrophil said:

the ability to loot money (for all the pirates and scavengers and outlaws), and indeed, the possibility of banking (who would bank money that is perfectly safe in a wallet, save for interest on deposits?)

Quanta (and skills) are the only way in DU of "measuring" playtime and advancement / progression. A newbro won't have any skills nor quanta while a veteran player has lots of skills and (hopefully, if he's smart enough) lots of quanta. Those are the only two things that give players a sense of "I'm a longterm player - I can do stuff which a newbro can't do (that easily)".

 

Living in UA is already dangerous enough:

- you may lose your base at any time

- you may be killed and lose all items on person at any time

- you may lose your ship when you're offline

 

You may live far from the next ASA/MSA (several hours) because you want those sweet sweet rare resources and have absolutely no chance of hoarding your hard earned money there. A blob appears and kills your ships, your bases and loots everything you got there - possibly the whole quanta stack of your whole organization. After that many would leave DU - quite rightfully so imho.

 

And no, banks are no option there either. Every bank so far I've seen in Eve was a scam. Every. Single. One. It might work out for a month or 5 years - but in the end someone scams all the people. Be it because they changed leadership, accepted a new director (who was a spai and infiltrated them for years) or because they're fighting over some petty thing and someone gets pissed.

Don't get me wrong: scams should be allowed, such thing adds a lot of drama, gameplay and makes players think before they do stupid things (well, mostly....).

But I don't think ppl will stay to play DU when some bank director decides to run with all your money - or you lose it to some invading force.

When quanta are unlootable then you still lose EVERYTHING you have - but as a vet you can (more or less) easily replace most things.

Even EVE didn't go that route - quite rightfully so.

 

But I don't get why banks need lootable quanta to begin with - make it a thing not to store your quanta but (as in RL) loan ppl. Use the money you get to invest, trade, build and sell and then give it back to ppl with some interest. 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Living in UA is already dangerous enough:

- you may lose your base at any time

- you may be killed and lose all items on person at any time

- you may lose your ship when you're offline

I think NQ made the right decision don't forget there will be many types of players and if you start robbing people  with no safety net type systems you are going to lose a lot of people that want to play your game but will not be cause of it ! To some people not interested in being a  pirates or PvP player : why waste time / months and money some times really money investing into something that some one can destroy in a few seconds that's a no win scenario for them. 

 

Even if you loot someone in game why is it a big deal to also take there money? You could still make a profit off the items you looted from them right? I use to PvP but I still don't understand why some players want to be able to loot all my items and take all my money leaven me with zero : butt naked and no cash  O.o   

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20 minutes ago, GunDeva said:

I think NQ made the right decision don't forget there will be many types of players and if you start robbing people  with no safety net type systems you are going to lose a lot of people that want to play your game but will not be cause of it ! To some people not interested in being a  pirates or PvP player : why waste time / months and money some times really money investing into something that some one can destroy in a few seconds that's a no win scenario for them. 

 

Even if you loot someone in game why is it a big deal to also take there money? You could still make a profit off the items you looted from them right? I use to PvP but I still don't understand why some players want to be able to loot all my items and take all my money leaven me with zero : butt naked and no cash  O.o   

well, yes. That's what I said too....

Ppl living in UA do so because the reward is way higher - but so is the risk already (see my list). No need and not a good idea imho (see my post why) to rob them of even the most basic safety net - non-lootable quanta

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3 hours ago, Astrophil said:

DACs, Blueprints, Territory Control Units, Resurrection Nodes, and Quanta

DACs? Probably.
TCU? I don't think so. Except sanctuary units, they are just normal items in game.
Ressourection Node - also normal thing. Only premium "skins" remain, and can be applied to new RN

Quanta - IMO should stay non-lootable. Just so you always have something left.

 

Levels - Actually making players loose set % upon death (i.e. 3%) would be quite interesting mechanics. So newbie (month of playing) would loose just day worth of stats, not a big deal. And veteran (2 years) would loose 21 days. Would create kind of championship "who can stay longer". Or create situation where highest level scientist of one org is under constant threat of assassination, as he's the only one who can produce weapon x.

 

Player skill - that's what really distinguish between noob and pro player, and nobody can take it away from you.

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51 minutes ago, CalenLoki said:

Levels - Actually making players loose set % upon death (i.e. 3%) would be quite interesting mechanics. So newbie (month of playing) would loose just day worth of stats, not a big deal. And veteran (2 years) would loose 21 days. Would create kind of championship "who can stay longer". Or create situation where highest level scientist of one org is under constant threat of assassination, as he's the only one who can produce weapon x

there are no levels - only skills to learn over time.

and opens up the whole game for a whole new level of griefing. If there is a chance to lose x days worth of skills, vets won't be doing much PvP - too risky. Or probably will just make burner alts for PvP - as far as we know everyone can do everything with skills with minimal training (only perfection needs time). And noone will risk that easily - robbing the game of gameplay

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5 hours ago, Astrophil said:

This will be a proposed solution to a problem that NovaQuark has thus far decided not to create: losing money (that is, in-game currency: Quanta) upon death of a player. Let's dive into it.

 

Related image

 

The Problem

If my sources are correct, NovaQuark has stated before that such items as DACs, Blueprints, Territory Control Units, Resurrection Nodes, and Quanta will not be lost upon death. Most of these items I have listed are justifiably non-lose-able; they are highly rare and valuable or, in some cases, unique items that would dramatically affect the total universal supply of these items. However, that last one, Quanta, seems not to belong on that list. Quanta will be as common as dirt, and the entire economy of DU will circulate around it. It is not rare, and it useful purely as a medium of exchange. So it seems to me that, like any other item, at least some percentage of Quanta should be lost by a player if he/she dies/is killed. A further incentive to encourage safe civilization building practices, of course. And a mechanic to facilitate looting of money, which is really the end goal of most looters. After all, in real life, should you be killed or rendered unconscious, any cash you may be carrying is easy pickings.

 

However, you might say, if a player dies of non-PVP causes, doesn't that create a currency sink? If a player were particularly deep-pocketed, it could even have a significant impact on the universal economy. Surely, this is a problem that we are better off avoiding?

 

The Attempt at a Solution

Allow me the privilege of tickling your economic fancies. We all know, of course, that NQ plans on implementing market bots/non-player-buy-orders initially, in order to inject some currency into the infant economy of the early game. Now let's take that a step further.

 

A player dies, drops random x% of Quanta. First, to facilitate looting, most of his inventory (including that Quanta) will have dropped. In most looting cases, looters will immediately snatch up these items and continue along their merry ways. If it is a non-PVP death (ex. taking too high of a fall, crashing a spaceship), presumably those items will just disappear after x amount of time. But wait! We can't just have Quanta dropping through a wormhole into another (triple?) universe. Oh the humanity economy! 

 

So here is what I propose: instead of vanishing like those other inventory contents, Quanta will be whisked away into one of those nifty market bots that will be present at the beginning of the game to inject currency. These bots will purchase items from sellers on the universal market, thus recirculating the money back into the economy. 

 

Extension

Of course, this all hinges on NQ's willingness to spend development time on this feature, and how to manage the balance between immersion and practicality (there are no market bots in the real world, but there are institutions installed to regulate the economy). This competes against the benefits of such a feature to the game: reality (it makes sense that you should lose money upon a death, even if temporary), the ability to loot money (for all the pirates and scavengers and outlaws), and indeed, the possibility of banking (who would bank money that is perfectly safe in a wallet, save for interest on deposits?)

 

 

Therefore, discuss.

When you're out in UA with your ship and an inventory full of stuff, you willingly take the risk of losing those things. And you risk a lot more if even your stash is in a UA base. Whatever you don't want to risk, you don't take with you.

 

But you can't make that choice for quanta. They're not physical items in your inventory so you can't leave them at home. In your proposal they will always be vulnerable to loss with no way of safeguarding them.

 

That's not risk/reward, that's just disincentive to leave safe zones. The most it accomplishes is that people will convert their quanta into items that can be safeguarded in some way, literally anything would be preferable to quanta. Which means more stockpiling.

 

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The more risk and danger you introduce to the game, the more it becomes an "ultra-hardcore PVP game", which does not seem to be what NQ are aiming for.

 

There is an audience for that kind of game play in an MMO, but it's a small one. The design that NQ has shown us so far indicates that they plan on appealing to a wider audience. They probably need a wider audience, DU is a subscription game after all, and it's not going to survive with a few thousand players...

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I think skill loss should something that didnt appear in normal PvP but have to satisfied some condition to active.

Like in bounty hunting. The most punishment for dead in real life is DEAD, but in game life we got many. So biggest punishment still is lost skill. But of course it still open some new way for harassment and grifer so the problem will have to satisfied some condition so it isnt be exploit. I still cant think what red line to active "punishment" that can be balance the game, i think it should be something that a single or a minor group cant place bounty  to just to harassment, for fun, griefer other.

 

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9 hours ago, Lethys said:

there are no levels - only skills to learn over time.

and opens up the whole game for a whole new level of griefing. If there is a chance to lose x days worth of skills, vets won't be doing much PvP - too risky. Or probably will just make burner alts for PvP - as far as we know everyone can do everything with skills with minimal training (only perfection needs time). And noone will risk that easily - robbing the game of gameplay

Words. Levels are in-game statistics that let/help your character do stuff. Skill is player ability to control game elements. Both are learned over time, first at fixed rate, while latter depends on individual predispositions.

That are my definitions. Feel free to use your own.

 

I know it create more risk, especially for vets. But who, if not long term players, should be the most exposed? Newbies? They are already at disadvantage - in terms of levels, skills&knowledge, social status, hidden wealth, ect.

Severity of character death is what dictate how people behave. The further it is from real life, the less realistic behaviours it promotes.

Loosing ship is obviously large hit, but it doesn't affect people who may be very important without any equipment.

And using alts for combat seems like viable way - characters are tools for players, just as weapons and ships. So you shouldn't risk more than you need to do the job.

 

 

But! I have alternative idea, that would also promote assassination, but only as a tool to temporarily hinder enemy, rather than permanently harming them.

It's again aimed to cause fear of death mostly amongst vets.

 

Every time you die you temporarily loose 50% of your current level. It regenerates over time, at speed that increase proportional to the time since death. So in a first day you'll regenerate one day worth of level. Two on the second day, three at third, ect. If you're one month old, it'll take 5 days to fully heal. If year old -> 18 days. 6 y o -> 47 d.

While healing you're still earning new levels. Thus no levelling time is ever lost.

If you die multiple times in a row, the healing speed is re-set and need to accelerate again.

 

8 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

I think skill loss should something that didnt appear in normal PvP but have to satisfied some condition to active.

Like in bounty hunting. The most punishment for dead in real life is DEAD, but in game life we got many. So biggest punishment still is lost skill. But of course it still open some new way for harassment and grifer so the problem will have to satisfied some condition so it isnt be exploit. I still cant think what red line to active "punishment" that can be balance the game, i think it should be something that a single or a minor group cant place bounty  to just to harassment, for fun, griefer other.

I can't think of any rule that could be used to draw that line either.

Bounty system? Just spend some monies to grief those you don't like.

Killing a lot? What if someone just effectively defends his property? What is good and bad? Who's hero and who's villian?

Attacking much smaller enemies to encourage fair combat? Too hard to determine which org is really small, and which is part of huge informal alliance of small orgs.

 

So overall - too artificial, too easy to game the game.

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42 minutes ago, CalenLoki said:

Words. Levels are in-game statistics that let/help your character do stuff. Skill is player ability to control game elements. Both are learned over time, first at fixed rate, while latter depends on individual predispositions.

That are my definitions. Feel free to use your own

No, skills are ingame stats which are trained over time, levels is simply the wrong term. And If used, then newbros might become a wrong impression of Du - that's why it's important to use correct terms

 

For the rest: just a Bad idea to Hit players with skill (again: No Levels) loss as this is just a very bad mechanic which only enforces alts and lessens the chance for PvP even more, ad noone wants to risk anything. Such systems just Hinder people who want to PvP.

Noone in their right mind would ask for such a system for traders. Or builders. Scammed someone? Lose skills. Built a Bad ship and sold it? Have your skills removed.

 

Encouraging certain playstyles (PvP and Not griefing) should be done via positive systems, Not negative ones.

 

And btw it's an offtopic debate, this one is about quanta and looting

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Dropping a percentage of your gold on death is so medieval. Noveans are in the future where crypto-currency rules supreme. Instead of mining in the cloud, Noveans may mine in the dirt and transform real arm-straining work into units representing their work and time. Imagine a decentralized currency that no burglar can break in to steal. Imagine a bank in each Noveans head that no bank robber can rob. Imagine...Quanta.

 

Does it make any sense for these bits of 1s and 0s to shower to the ground in a fountain of credits as you dramatically scream your last breath (at least from the current body)?

 

Say "No". Say "No" to having your hard earned time stolen. Say "No" to losing Quanta on death.

 

Long live the Quanta!

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39 minutes ago, Lethys said:

lessens the chance for PvP even more, as noone wants to risk anything.

Noone of people who play game where you loose hours-worth of ship and equipment when you loose battle? Hmm...

 

It's complicated question of "how meaningful death should be" without simple and common agreement.

IMO anything that can be directly used in combat should be at some risk. Unless it's available to everyone from the beginning (nano-former, space-suit, ect). And you can use levels in combat.

 

Traders can die, builders can die, miners can die. Making enemies by scamming or selling shit makes it way more likely. As well as just being good and upset competition.
No need for separate system for them.

 

PS. I'm against quanta or DAC loss, as it can't be directly used for combat (and are too easy to save on alts anyway). Just in case someone misunderstand.

PPS. I can agree to use term "skill level" or "character skill", as a compromise. As simple "skill" apply to other things than some numerical statistics too.

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Like mentioned above this doesn't seem like the best idea as you already have to deal with the issues of an open universe. When you are offline your base/ship/creation could be blown to smithereens, and what do you have to replace it? nothing. If people start losing quanta as well as having that risk people will start being annoyed and ultimately cease playing the game altogether.

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34 minutes ago, CalenLoki said:

Noone of people who play game where you loose hours-worth of ship and equipment when you loose battle? Hmm...

 

It's complicated question of "how meaningful death should be" without simple and common agreement.

IMO anything that can be directly used in combat should be at some risk. Unless it's available to everyone from the beginning (nano-former, space-suit, ect). And you can use levels in combat.

 

Traders can die, builders can die, miners can die. Making enemies by scamming or selling shit makes it way more likely. As well as just being good and upset competition.
No need for separate system for them.

 

PS. I'm against quanta or DAC loss, as it can't be directly used for combat (and are too easy to save on alts anyway). Just in case someone misunderstand.

PPS. I can agree to use term "skill level" or "character skill", as a compromise. As simple "skill" apply to other things than some numerical statistics too.

Yup, exactly. I already risk my Base, ship and every single Asset i have. No need for even more risks (Like losing skills and quanta). If I truly lose everything including all quanta and even ingame time (even when that's "only" temporary) then I have no interest at all to Go outside and simply won't play DU with my main acc in UA. Just use burner alts for PvP with Low skills, No quanta on them.

 

Following your Logic you also would have to lose building skills ofc (turrets, engines, thrusters, RCS - all used directly in combat). Not to speak of ship building skills ofc which you might need to build better and more efficient ships. No need to only hamper PvP players with PvP only skills.

Losing DAC is essential imho and should be (has to be) allowed - but that's OT too.

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Low skill levels means disadvantage in combat. Your choice, just like taking cheaper ship, or saving on built base.

4 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Following your Logic you also would have to lose building skills ofc (turrets, engines, thrusters, RCS - all used directly in combat). Not to speak of ship building skills ofc which you might need to build better and more efficient ships. No need to only hamper PvP players with PvP only skills.

Exactly. All kinds of levels. After all assassinating enemy best engineer should be a thing. 

6 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Losing DAC is essential imho and should be (has to be) allowed - but that's OT too.

Yeah. Said that just so nobody accused me of suggesting full perm-death.

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6 minutes ago, CalenLoki said:

Low skill levels means disadvantage in combat. Your choice, just like taking cheaper ship, or saving on built base.

Exactly. All kinds of levels. After all assassinating enemy best engineer should be a thing. 

Yeah. Said that just so nobody accused me of suggesting full perm-death.

And that's why i just disagree with you. Your "ideas" only create fear of PvP and cater to risk averse tacticians. PvP should be seen as a driving factor and be the basis and incentive for ppl to get stuff done, not punish them because they tried

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17 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

Industrialists will have billions of quanta 'on them'. Pretty sure loosing that would put people of playing DU, i know i would rethink being in game if it was so.

 

Now if you think of quanta as digital, not physical, like most money is today, then having no quanta drop makes sense.

I would assume it is digital

 

14 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

DACs? Probably.
TCU? I don't think so. Except sanctuary units, they are just normal items in game.
Ressourection Node - also normal thing. Only premium "skins" remain, and can be applied to new RN

Quanta - IMO should stay non-lootable. Just so you always have something left.

 

Levels - Actually making players loose set % upon death (i.e. 3%) would be quite interesting mechanics. So newbie (month of playing) would loose just day worth of stats, not a big deal. And veteran (2 years) would loose 21 days. Would create kind of championship "who can stay longer". Or create situation where highest level scientist of one org is under constant threat of assassination, as he's the only one who can produce weapon x.

 

Player skill - that's what really distinguish between noob and pro player, and nobody can take it away from you.

Losing exp would be a pain and would destroy your playerbase quite quickly as if you just have a bad day and die lets say as a extreme 100+ times or some one fines a way to camp your only reserection node back to level 1 yay or rather not really

 

3 hours ago, Kurock said:

Dropping a percentage of your gold on death is so medieval. Noveans are in the future where crypto-currency rules supreme. Instead of mining in the cloud, Noveans may mine in the dirt and transform real arm-straining work into units representing their work and time. Imagine a decentralized currency that no burglar can break in to steal. Imagine a bank in each Noveans head that no bank robber can rob. Imagine...Quanta.

 

Does it make any sense for these bits of 1s and 0s to shower to the ground in a fountain of credits as you dramatically scream your last breath (at least from the current body)?

 

Say "No". Say "No" to having your hard earned time stolen. Say "No" to losing Quanta on death.

 

Long live the Quanta!

I agree!

 

2 hours ago, Lethys said:

And that's why i just disagree with you. Your "ideas" only create fear of PvP and cater to risk averse tacticians. PvP should be seen as a driving factor and be the basis and incentive for ppl to get stuff done, not punish them because they tried

Yea i could see DU becoming a PvE game if level loss became a thing

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