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Linux crowdfund please


Jenshae

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3 hours ago, Msoul said:

... and so many compromise with various alternative solutions like dual booting or emulation. ...

Windows 10 is malware and when Win7 is no longer supported with security updates, I will trash my virtual machine and that will be the end of M$ for me at home (I can't actually remember the last time I ran the VM).

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Felonu said:

You are turning your post away from DU Ports, and toward Win vs Linux debate.  

 

On 14/04/2018 at 8:49 PM, blazemonger said:

... NQ should IMO stay far away from Linux as it is really not worthwhile for them to pursue ...

While I personally fail to see the point in putting this much effort into getting games to run while all you need to do is install/dual boot Windows is just silly, ...

 

The value of Linux as a gaming platform was raised as early as Post #3.

 

My point is that Linux is worth the effort and is a growing user base. "Gabe must be pissed Linux is so low after all of his effort" that is still only proportional, the actual number of users is increasing as more people game each year.

 

At some point the circle will break, devs will more frequently make games cross platform, more players will use the best OS and it will keep growing from there. If you had looked at the number of AAA games and Linux gamers 10 and 20 years ago, it would have been much lower than it is these days. It is gaining traction and I am putting forward why I believe NQ should be available to 100% of gamers instead of throwing away n% of revenue.

 

... and how they can scale / measure the contribution and adjust their efforts down or up accordingly.

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People have been saying the tide is turning on Linux for years.  Heck, I remember when there was a big hooplah about "Linux will hit 5% in 2017".  That sure didn't happen haha.  I love Linux, and I would love to game on Linux... but I have no illusions.

 

I'm pretty certain DU will release on Linux after development settles once we're released.  Should they worry about it now?  Nah.

 

Honestly, getting the game working with Wine is good enough for me.

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13 minutes ago, Hades said:

Honestly, getting the game working with Wine is good enough for me.

Yup that would be a fine solution. Once the NDA drops and the client becomes publicly available I expect a lot of effort will be put forth by the community to make it happen. Linux users will band together and find a way even if we have to go through hoops to do it, this game is simply worth the effort. If successful it could also greatly help the developers with their own implementation so its a win-win situation. In the worst case scenario that we fail to accomplish anything, I still have faith that NQ will be able to pull it off given enough time. As previously mentioned they use Linux too and I am sure they are doing everything they can to plan for Linux compatibility as they go forward so their life is easier later on.

Also @Jenshae please stop hating on other operating systems, everyone has their own preferences and your just going to spark an argument going about it like that. Your not the only one that wants Linux support and this is not the first time this topic has cropped up. Don't worry the devs know and while they can't make promises right now give them a little credit. With the Linux community growing the way you describe it I am sure they are not going to ignore that consumer base. Dual Universe will have a Linux client its all a matter of time just be patient.

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7 hours ago, Jenshae said:

It is gaining traction and I am putting forward why I believe NQ should be available to 100% of gamers instead of throwing away n% of revenue.

 

What you seem to consistently ignore or not understand is that there is no potential revenue from the Linux user base as for NQ to support those users they will have to invest more than they will recoup. So supporting Linux will be at a loss.

 

As I mentioned previously, once the game is released and NQ could free resources to work on, maintain and support a Linux cient, sure.

 

Adding resources or moving them is not a viable option as it will impact far more backers than it would draw in and cost more than it can bring in to say the least.

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8 hours ago, Jenshae said:

It is gaining traction and I am putting forward why I believe NQ should be available to 100% of gamers instead of throwing away n% of revenue.

"100% of gamers" ?

 

Hmmm... I must have missed the part where you campaigned for a native OSX version of DU ! ;)

 

Linux may be the fastest growing platform currently, but that is commercially irrelevant if it means the user base is going from 0.5% to 1% in a year. No company spends money making a product for a target market that might be economically significant 10 years from now...

 

Porting to Linux (or any other OS) is not a "one-time cost". Those skills have to be retained in the company permanently, to ensure that any future changes to the game work on all the supported OS's. That's why trying to "crowdfund" a Linux version is impractical.

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14 hours ago, NanoDot said:

"100% of gamers" ?

 

Hmmm... I must have missed the part where you campaigned for a native OSX version of DU ! ;)

 

Yes you did, quoted myself.

Platform independence means it will also work on Mac.

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20 hours ago, Msoul said:

.... Also @Jenshae please stop hating on other operating systems, everyone has their own preferences ...

No secret that I hate Windohs. Have to keep that pile of rubbish running at work. 
At home, I switched to Linux, not because I love Linux but because I wanted to get away from Windows.

The other option is Mac ... well there are cheaper Etch-and-Sketches out there than what Apple sells.

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Linux user here. It is not going to happen for DU. iirc CCP attempted a Linux client and the maintenance was not worth it.

 

Maybe it's a good thing? Linux distros end up concentrating on other aspects than hardware races? Guess Windows as a dual or multi-boot is not such a bad thing for gaming?

 

Like I said or did not say, I like Linux a lot more than Windows, but can see why it ain't happened in a big way for big games.

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On 4/17/2018 at 3:00 PM, Felonu said:

You are turning your post away from DU Ports, and toward Win vs Linux debate.  There are plenty of places that debate can be made, but this game forum probably isn't the best place.

 

I have to agree with Felonu here, at this point, I'm pretty certain Novaquark has read this topic. While I understand that you prefer Linux over Windows @Jenshae, there really isn't much else that can be said on the topic, without it seeming like anything that's said about windows will be refuted because of "how bad windows is" essentially killing the discussion.
 

Remember that everyone has the right of choice. If they want to run windows, they can do so, if they want to run Linux, they can do so. - This however, is not the topic of your discussion, and it's now becoming the topic. So, for now, let's keep it on topic; whether or not Novaquark can afford to do a Linux port.


As many have mentioned, at the moment it is not possibility, size of studio and funds. This , however, does not mean that they wont do it in the future.

 

See here their official stance on the matter:

 

Quote

 

Quote

 

As a Linux-preferring gamer passionate about virtual worlds, do you plan to offer support for Linux? How about other non-Windows OS such as OSX? I implore you to build your game and all the tools necessary to provide it using multi-platform friendly APIs (ie Vulkan ) and ideally, pledge you support for a Linux client from the start. Many major crowdfunded titles, including MMOs, that support Linux succeed wildly thanks to the dedicated Linux backer community. DU seems to be a perfect project of interest for the Linux community, especially with your emphasis on in-game scripting and the scope of the project (Linux users will be some of the most technically viable testers you'll find) , but before the word can spread, we will need to hear your plans regarding our OS of choice! Please bring Dual Universe to Linux!

First, we love Linux! Actually, several of our programmers are running Linux on a daily basis as their main programming environment. The game currently runs on Linux every day, on these programmers machine. Now, it does not necessarily mean that we can ship the game on Linux, there are many issues that we need to solve: compatibility of all the third-party libraries we use, selecting a distro, deal with the maintenance efforts that goes with having a code base that runs on clang and visual studio, etc. It is not impossible, we would love to do it, but ultimately it will depend on the market size relative to the costs of maintenance. So, if we can see a strong movement of the community in favor of Linux, it will significantly increase the chance of the game being released on Linux.

 

 

So for now, be sure that NQ is fully aware of the Linux port discussion. If its shown that there is enough Linux market share they will look into it.

 

 

~ Meldrik

 

Edited by Mod-Meldrik
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Mac market is even smaller as the game will require dedicated GFX and most macs use the built in gfx..

 

BTW,  I watched the clips you posted. I knew the Linustech one already and it's actually pretty good while it really works against your argument since it explains very well how using Vulkan (and DX12) requires more work/attention = development time for game developers (with better end results yes). The argument here is really the same as before as switching would seriously delay game development and require a lot of work for (again)  what really is an insignificant gain in potential users from the Linux (and Mac) side of the world. 

 

The German clip was rather ehrm.. interesting and sorry, I can't take this guy serious. And yes, I am fluent in German so I get what is is saying perfectly fine and it's mostly a nonsense and biased rant from a nerd with his tool clips hung around his waste doing a presentation.

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1 hour ago, MookMcMook said:

Like I said or did not say, I like Linux a lot more than Windows, but can see why it ain't happened in a big way for big games.

Yep, more games implement Mac than Linux.  And that’s pretty telling 

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Yes, it is. Holding up completing and releasing a game to accommodate a small group of potential players who will not be able to generate the revenue to cover the cost is bad business however. 

 

I doubt anyone here can make you understand your wish, no matter how understandable,  is both unreasonable and not a viable business decision to make for NQ for the very simple reason that the user base simply is not there..

 

I have nothing more to add so I'll be moving away from the thread..

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10 minutes ago, Hades said:

Even if Linux held 25% it wouldn’t make sense to tackle such until after release.  There are priorities in play.

Re-do a complete game or lay out good planned coding practises?

 

The more code there is to work through in order to free the game from Window's clutches, the bigger the mountain to climb with less rewards at the top.
Better to start laying the road that knows the easiest way straight through the mountain.

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What's better?  Wasting resources in a critical point in the game's development for a novelty... or devoting a small effort consistently to a project after launch in a stable environment?  Furthermore, whose to say they aren't already keeping their options open?

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Just a thought.

 

If you're willing to self fund an entire new team to develop a unix version, wouldn't it be a whole lot cheaper to just implement one of the many dual boot options? My favorite choice is a front loading swap bay and a second hard drive. That plus the cost of windows would set you back maybe $200. Then you could play with as many different boot OSes as you want, and play a bunch of other games too.

 

 

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Hi everyone,

 

To conclude this never-ending discussion that already happened many times before and after the Kickstarter campaign:
 

  • We are still a small company aiming to make a very ambitious game, especially for a company of this size.
     
  • We have a tight budget, and we can't go overboard with appealing (but not mandatory) goals before we reach the official release of the game (at which point we should be able to self-finance the said goals, if all goes well). Among appealing goals are: localization in multiple languages and giving a thought for other platforms.
     
  • Developing for another platform cost money, but it also need to have the right available people, and right now, we are still recruiting to complete the team for the main platform. It wouldn't be reasonable to start another team for a new platform. Polishing the game on one platform and running it smoothly on the main hardware configs (intel/AMD nvdia/ATI) is already a huge task.
     
  • Yes, some devs are running Dual Universe on Linux. That doesn't mean it's a stable and polished version, that we could guarantee to allocate people to fix problems happening on Linux if such issue arises. Linux players will be the first to throw rocks at us if something goes wrong in that regard (and they would be right).
     
  • Developing in one thing and maintaining is another thing. Doing both for a second platform has an irreducible base cost + a proportional cost. At this point we have no irrefutable proof that making a Linux version will cover this. Sorry but linking a press articles (released in 2010) and based on indie games is not enough. While we are an indie company, we are trying to make a MMORPG, and we haven't read yet a source (backed with facts) saying the market share using Linux in MMORPG communities is big enough to be profitable. In fact, the few news in this category tend to be interpreted as the contrary: for example, CCP dropped official Linux support for in 2009.
     
  • So this is not a "definitive no", but not a yes either. In any case, we won't take the risk to make too much too fast at the same time. This would be the best way to jeopardize the project. We have no big publisher backing the project if something goes wrong. We understand that the idea is appealing to Linux players, but that doesn't sound a reasonable idea for the moment. Making a proper game first on at least one platform is.

 

In a nutshell:

There are ways to run the current version of Dual Universe on Linux. However we won't allocate any (human or budget) resource to start a Linux version in the current context. That doesn't mean we can guarantee it will be always the case and we can't promise official support for it so far. Having developers running Dual Universe on Linux should give a hint that Linux compatibility isn't completely out of our mind (but again this shouldn't be interpreted as a firm promise for a Linux version).

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

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