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RhysAnnwn

Concerns About PVP

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18 hours ago, Kuritho said:

It is a self-balancing system.

You get a group of gankers that kill everyone.

Everyone kills and blacklists the gankers.

Normality resumed.

When has that ever worked. They don't mind getting hunted, killed, hated or outlawed, in fact they fully expect it. Pushing people's buttons is their M.O., that's exactly the way they like it. Sending bounty hunters after a troll won't stop them, only feed them. And mind you, you're the one paying the bounty.

 

Simple disincentives won't work either because it's just their way of having fun, it's all cost of doing business. Some people earn their wealth sothat they can spend it on building a stargate, others earn it sothat they can spend it on trolling. It's basically an emergent profession just like any other. If the opportunity exists, there will be people who grab it.

 

The only remedy for any kind of griefing or abuse is to find ways of making it effectively toothless to begin with, because that prevents it from dominating the landscape, becoming toxic and souring the experience of other players, and it takes the fun out of it for trolls. Also saves the NQ support team a buttload of complaints and ban requests.

 

@NQ-Nyzaltar (for the record)

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6 hours ago, Nanoman said:

When has that ever worked. They don't mind getting hunted, killed, hated or outlawed, in fact they fully expect it. Pushing people's buttons is their M.O., that's exactly the way they like it. Sending bounty hunters after a troll won't stop them, only feed them. And mind you, you're the one paying the bounty.

 

Simple disincentives won't work either because it's just their way of having fun, it's all cost of doing business. Some people earn their wealth sothat they can spend it on building a stargate, others earn it sothat they can spend it on trolling. It's basically an emergent profession just like any other. If the opportunity exists, there will be people who grab it.

 

The only remedy for any kind of griefing or abuse is to find ways of making it effectively toothless to begin with, because that prevents it from dominating the landscape, becoming toxic and souring the experience of other players, and it takes the fun out of it for trolls. Also saves the NQ support team a buttload of complaints and ban requests.

 

@NQ-Nyzaltar (for the record)

It has always worked. How do you think EVE exists and lives?

---

So what would you suggest? Taking out PvP? Ban PvPers?

 

The ultimate and best option is not to be braindead when it comes to evasion.

 

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Create system to enhance word of mouth/blacklists reach.

Make sure that creating alts to avoid punishment doesn't really work (levels?).

As a player, make sure to support those who hunt trolls (pay for protection).

And don't forget to be tough yourself, to filter out all weak unorganised trolls.

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2 hours ago, Kuritho said:

It has always worked. How do you think EVE exists and lives?

---

 

 

To be honest, EVE is only still going because it went (sort of) free.  And the more recent reviews are far more scathing than when I was still playing about 5 years ago.

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1 hour ago, RhysAnnwn said:

To be honest, EVE is only still going because it went (sort of) free.  And the more recent reviews are far more scathing than when I was still playing about 5 years ago.

But EVE had survived over the years, until the devs went a bit under.

To be honest, that statement is null.

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18 minutes ago, Kuritho said:

But EVE had survived over the years, until the devs went a bit under.

To be honest, that statement is null.

Considering they went free to increase the playerbase, I'd say it stands.

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16 minutes ago, RhysAnnwn said:

Considering they went free to increase the playerbase, I'd say it stands.

Considering they would've still been relatively okay if they didn't, I'd say it is null.

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On 4/14/2018 at 3:02 AM, NanoDot said:

The moment you step out of the safezone, you will be "prone to getting ganked". Mining some valuable resource will simply increase that risk.

 

And dying means you lose your ship and everything in your inventory (except the cash in your wallet, which is always safe).

 

But there are no fixed "best resource areas" in DU. Resources will be spread all over the planets, moons and asteroids in the systems, and will have to be found and mined. And once a specific deposit is mined out, it doesn't respawn (ever), you have to find a new deposit somewhere else.

 

There are no specific places where the "best" resources can always be found. So it won't be possible for criminals to "camp the high value nodes", because that mechanic does not exist in DU. The outer planets in any system will most likely have the best chance for valuable resources, but the planets in DU are VERY large, searching an entire planet to find miners will take considerable amounts of time... and time is money in DU. Every minute you spend searching for targets costs fuel...

well As far As I have seen or as I know Those grounds are shaky at best but you may have more info than me pre alpha tester

 

On 4/15/2018 at 1:25 AM, erichconvair said:

Corpo like Goons will have a very fast reality checks for 2 reasons already mentioned heres and there : 

  • Finites  ressources that need time and skills to be found.
  • No overpowered aka scripted mining equipments whatsoever.
  • Manly operated ships (space and atmospheric) will need real crews to operate weaponries.
  • And some interesting basic mechanic not allowed to talk here that will make ganking really a challenge. 

In short building a fleet of catalyst will be extremely costly in time, ressources and men to operate. I won't even mention Capitals war-fleet..

 

Another side note, JC is/was an Eve player and knows very well how ganking could destroy an early game very  quickly.

 

 

thats all well and good but NDA will never put it to rest

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I hope it is as toxic and as dangerous as Eve. What is killing Eve is lack of it.

 

Blowing stuff up gives you the thrills and adrenaline, not digging in rocks. Sure, building is essential part, but has to be equally balanced with risk and danger.

 

DU will have my money if I have guarantee that there will be small and large scale battle options, that are not instanced, limited or pre-arranged. 

 

I understand the carebears' rant. They like building stuff and get angry when someone kicks their sandcastle, but there are also others who like competition and confrontation. So the carebear syndicate wants them out of DU?

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4 hours ago, Thor Vanguard said:

I hope it is as toxic and as dangerous as Eve. What is killing Eve is lack of it.

 

Blowing stuff up gives you the thrills and adrenaline, not digging in rocks. Sure, building is essential part, but has to be equally balanced with risk and danger.

 

DU will have my money if I have guarantee that there will be small and large scale battle options, that are not instanced, limited or pre-arranged. 

 

I understand the carebears' rant. They like building stuff and get angry when someone kicks their sandcastle, but there are also others who like competition and confrontation. So the carebear syndicate wants them out of DU?

The thing is PvP is right at the heart of EVE, along with the economy: They're inextricably linked. A lot of designers seem to have not realized that is just ONE version of what EVE successfully became: A Virtual World MMO. Let's compare: Dual Universe will have a huge basis as a sandbox MMO with it's voxel gameplay scope which is ENORMOUS.

 

Therefore the heart of DU (as I've always said) is the primary form of gameplay = this "sandbox" voxel manipulation in conjunction with the economy.

 

Where EVE has been a YOY success for decades gradually increasing, it has done so with the harsh conditions of it's own design. DU I would predict (if it works) to be a much larger population game based off this difference of creativity that people want to experience: Not only to create but to use and then share.

 

Thus we now have the correct context to what makes EVE tick with it's harshness. To the ends that that is what EVE is? You are right. In fact CCP is not going to grow it's population deviating from the focus of the game but alienating the committed players. It has to be inventive with regenerating systems of this type for it's fans.

 

My view about PvP in DU, as someone who enjoys PvP (not a P+E'er and NEVER a PvE'er (how dull!)), if the population is suitably larger, that creates perfect conditions for a new form of PvP we've not seen much of yet that fits the MMO genre like no other. So far from it, the more attractive DU can be made to be for non-PvP'ers the better.

 

But it is a long way to go to get there first.

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A sort of supply chain and also being able to mostly (but perhaps, all in all, not completely) separate from PvP would help a lot. Since wars will eat up resources and since we have safe zones (full or contestable) I see the "two worlds" bridged.

 

If many people with a focus on either side would stop seeing the devil in the other side (or sometimes be less vocal about it alternatively), more would get along.

 

A relative Co-existence is possible, people just need to find their niches and realize that they occasionally or often may benefit from the "other side", whether that side is strictly or primarily PvP or not.

 

My point in all of this is: you can add mechanics that encourage non-PvP or make it possible in the first place somewhere. But that's not a 100% in my eyes, the rest depends on the people and their various acceptances or views and expectations. Or in short, especially but not solely for non-PvPers: game even more enjoyable if you accept other side, assuming you are or were opposing it.

 

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For some reason some PvP players still think ships grow on trees. If you want to go full hardcore PvP be ready to mine and craft your own ship or get in an organization that provides you freely, but evern those will need people to mine and craft them, and trust me if you destroy your ship every day and the same people have to craft it again and again every day, your gone be a popular member.  

 

For the rest necroposting for the win :P

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On 1/3/2019 at 5:37 AM, Thor Vanguard said:

I hope it is as toxic and as dangerous as Eve. What is killing Eve is lack of it.

 

Blowing stuff up gives you the thrills and adrenaline, not digging in rocks. Sure, building is essential part, but has to be equally balanced with risk and danger.

 

DU will have my money if I have guarantee that there will be small and large scale battle options, that are not instanced, limited or pre-arranged. 

 

I understand the carebears' rant. They like building stuff and get angry when someone kicks their sandcastle, but there are also others who like competition and confrontation. So the carebear syndicate wants them out of DU?

I agree 

 

On 1/3/2019 at 10:46 AM, Borb_1 said:

The thing is PvP is right at the heart of EVE, along with the economy: They're inextricably linked. A lot of designers seem to have not realized that is just ONE version of what EVE successfully became: A Virtual World MMO. Let's compare: Dual Universe will have a huge basis as a sandbox MMO with it's voxel gameplay scope which is ENORMOUS.

 

Therefore the heart of DU (as I've always said) is the primary form of gameplay = this "sandbox" voxel manipulation in conjunction with the economy.

 

Where EVE has been a YOY success for decades gradually increasing, it has done so with the harsh conditions of it's own design. DU I would predict (if it works) to be a much larger population game based off this difference of creativity that people want to experience: Not only to create but to use and then share.

 

Thus we now have the correct context to what makes EVE tick with it's harshness. To the ends that that is what EVE is? You are right. In fact CCP is not going to grow it's population deviating from the focus of the game but alienating the committed players. It has to be inventive with regenerating systems of this type for it's fans.

 

My view about PvP in DU, as someone who enjoys PvP (not a P+E'er and NEVER a PvE'er (how dull!)), if the population is suitably larger, that creates perfect conditions for a new form of PvP we've not seen much of yet that fits the MMO genre like no other. So far from it, the more attractive DU can be made to be for non-PvP'ers the better.

 

But it is a long way to go to get there first.

Industry I believe will accomplish this with the dedicated areas 

 

On 1/4/2019 at 2:52 AM, Aaron Cain said:

For some reason some PvP players still think ships grow on trees. If you want to go full hardcore PvP be ready to mine and craft your own ship or get in an organization that provides you freely, but evern those will need people to mine and craft them, and trust me if you destroy your ship every day and the same people have to craft it again and again every day, your gone be a popular member.  

 

For the rest necroposting for the win :P

Unless you are specifically training pilots then yea Any org that claims to do what you are suggesting is doomed to fail if a change is not put in place. Also what are war"s almost always fought for ? Reasorces but to to take somones reasorces you need reasorces to do so but if say your enemy out produces you and ends up with say a 10,000 weapons vs your 1,000 inferior weapons they can expend more to take what you have and knock you off the map also active members play a large role in this as well. ;)

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On 4/15/2018 at 12:15 AM, Lethys said:

And that's Not true either. It depends where you are in eve, which Corp you're in and what you do. And it depends on your mindset when you  Play  too.  I pIayed eve for over 10000 hours and loved the player experience. 

Smacktalk in local? Hilarious at times and when you're Not in the mood just ignore it. 

 

Sowhat do you mean by that?

 

Well that's your problem then isn't it, Not DUs? 

If you can't take orders easily in a social MMO then either live alone and do stuff alone or create your own org and run it. You have to work together in Du to get things done faster, better and more efficient, that's the point of socializing and rebuilding civilization

 

Which "exploits" so you mean?

 

And what exactly did the goons do? Burn jita? 

 

Again: If you're a "carebear" (and i don't mean that negative!) and just can't wrap your head around PvP for whatever reason and your mindset isn't the right one to play in a hostile and PvP heavy area - then that's fine and ok. In eve you're never 100% safe, anyone can attack you at any time. 

In Du you can be 100% safe, do everything the game offers in a 100% non-PvP environment (scanning, mining, building, flying, Trading, ....). 

 

The Moment you step outside the ASA though, you can be attacked. Does that mean you'll die everytime you step outside? No, ofc not. Be smart about it, survey the area. Socializing with ppl helps and asking them for intel (has SOMEONE been Seen? Are Pirates Here?). Friends help too. Think before you do something - maybe it's better to hide a bit more and Take the longer route to your Destination, so the Others don't spot you. 

 

On 4/15/2018 at 1:25 AM, erichconvair said:

Corpo like Goons will have a very fast reality checks for 2 reasons already mentioned heres and there : 

  • Finites  ressources that need time and skills to be found.
  • No overpowered aka scripted mining equipments whatsoever.
  • Manly operated ships (space and atmospheric) will need real crews to operate weaponries.
  • And some interesting basic mechanic not allowed to talk here that will make ganking really a challenge. 

In short building a fleet of catalyst will be extremely costly in time, ressources and men to operate. I won't even mention Capitals war-fleet..

 

Another side note, JC is/was an Eve player and knows very well how ganking could destroy an early game very  quickly.

 

 

This is why when somone freaks out about a large corp from eve I silently laugh as stated there are specific reasons goons have what they have nor are they Gods and own the game all it takes is a simple push btw exploits they may be refering to is botting esp aim bot and the like however it would be a good thing to find out how well NQ plans on tackling that problem.

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On 4/15/2018 at 12:15 AM, Lethys said:

And that's Not true either. It depends where you are in eve, which Corp you're in and what you do. And it depends on your mindset when you  Play  too.  I pIayed eve for over 10000 hours and loved the player experience. 

Smacktalk in local? Hilarious at times and when you're Not in the mood just ignore it. 

 

Sowhat do you mean by that?

 

Well that's your problem then isn't it, Not DUs? 

If you can't take orders easily in a social MMO then either live alone and do stuff alone or create your own org and run it. You have to work together in Du to get things done faster, better and more efficient, that's the point of socializing and rebuilding civilization

 

Which "exploits" so you mean?

 

And what exactly did the goons do? Burn jita? 

 

Again: If you're a "carebear" (and i don't mean that negative!) and just can't wrap your head around PvP for whatever reason and your mindset isn't the right one to play in a hostile and PvP heavy area - then that's fine and ok. In eve you're never 100% safe, anyone can attack you at any time. 

In Du you can be 100% safe, do everything the game offers in a 100% non-PvP environment (scanning, mining, building, flying, Trading, ....). 

 

The Moment you step outside the ASA though, you can be attacked. Does that mean you'll die everytime you step outside? No, ofc not. Be smart about it, survey the area. Socializing with ppl helps and asking them for intel (has SOMEONE been Seen? Are Pirates Here?). Friends help too. Think before you do something - maybe it's better to hide a bit more and Take the longer route to your Destination, so the Others don't spot you. 

 

On 4/15/2018 at 1:25 AM, erichconvair said:

Corpo like Goons will have a very fast reality checks for 2 reasons already mentioned heres and there : 

  • Finites  ressources that need time and skills to be found.
  • No overpowered aka scripted mining equipments whatsoever.
  • Manly operated ships (space and atmospheric) will need real crews to operate weaponries.
  • And some interesting basic mechanic not allowed to talk here that will make ganking really a challenge. 

In short building a fleet of catalyst will be extremely costly in time, ressources and men to operate. I won't even mention Capitals war-fleet..

 

Another side note, JC is/was an Eve player and knows very well how ganking could destroy an early game very  quickly.

 

 

This is why when somone freaks out about a large corp from eve I silently laugh as stated there are specific reasons goons have what they have nor are they Gods and own the game all it takes is a simple push btw exploits they may be refering to is botting esp aim bot and the like however it would be a good thing to find out how well NQ plans on tackling that problem.

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On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 12:37 AM, unown006 said:

Industry I believe will accomplish this with the dedicated areas 

Right on Commander!

 

To guess:

 

1. Sandbox DU gameplay = Civilian (player type "A") + Civilization-Building Gameplay eg mega-structures and infrastructures and services for entertainment + P+E

2. Simulation DU gameplay = Logistics (player type "B") + Economic Domination Gameplay eg market control of supply-demand and pricing manipulation

3. Competition DU Gameplay = Combat (player type "C") + PvP

 

In effect, 2 and 3 = Industrial-Military Complex = Expand + Exploit + Exterminate

In effect 1 = Civilization Building eg Cities et al = Expand and Experiment

 

Imho, given A Population >>>> B + C, then NQ need Dual Universe game world to balance the expansion and experimentation gameplay (demand) without being negatively inhibited by the other half of the game world. Thus B + C need to supply A as their success metric.

 

In EVE it's melded the civilization-soldier into one thing. That's the big difference it appears attempting to view ahead atm. Like I said, the industry grows more vigorously the more demand from civilization populations and the competition to supply them... I guess this needs to happen by hook (design) or by crook (emergence); which means either or both.

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