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Realistic incentives for City building

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2 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

If this is apparent I could see NQ changing their design around including this sort of play behaviour via enlarged safe zones (for the time-being or else some other variant implementation perhaps taxes or so on..). I find it difficult to guess further, as this whole building side of gameplay is not MY main interest at all, but I try to consider what other preferences different people seem to like and take pleasure from enjoying: And this building Landmark / second life sort of /sims type of thing does seem v popular, strange to me as it seems?

I'm basing my view on what we currently know regarding the DU design.

 

At this point, we know the game world will be massive, but the "safezones" only cover a tiny % of that play area. That is the current reality, and NQ have not given any indication that the ratio will change significantly.

 

We can use "what if" to turn DU into anything we want to, but that's the realm of daydreams. I prefer to work with what we know, rather than how we wish it to be.

 

Sure, creative games like Minecraft have become hugely popular, but none of them are set in a single-shard FFA-PVP environment. If anyone can prove that the Minecraft servers featuring PVP are by far the most popular and numerous, then I'll accept that that audience has a home in DU.

 

I'm intentionally highlighting the harsh realities of DU, because players that enter the game with illusions will be the most vicious haters of the game when those illusions are shattered.

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1 hour ago, NanoDot said:

I'm basing my view on what we currently know regarding the DU design.

We know DU will have PvP and non-PvP areas.

 

1 hour ago, NanoDot said:

At this point, we know the game world will be massive, but the "safezones" only cover a tiny % of that play area. That is the current reality, and NQ have not given any indication that the ratio will change significantly.

Well, they recently expanded safe zones to moons. That seems pretty real.
 

1 hour ago, NanoDot said:

Sure, creative games like Minecraft have become hugely popular, but none of them are set in a single-shard FFA-PVP environment.

So lets just build another Eve and call it a day?  Why would you NOT want to cater to those players the same way the game caters to the hard core PvPer? Creative people don't need much (because they're creative). Just look at the recent city event. Most online PvP games are segmented anyway with the hardcore doing their super serious secret society thing, the small timers playing with their buddies, the lone wolves/griefers/gankers having their own version of fun. DU won't be any different in that regard, but it could be if it had a social/creative element where all those groups could mingle together from time to time. Bringing players together is something all MMO's, including DU is trying to achieve. The incentive is a larger player base, and a much more accessible game.

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The key to cities is having reason for people to gather in limited area. I think another major incentive for this would be security.

 

The first post mentioned raiders, warmongers and griefplayers and if one area can offer protection against this. This depends on the territory mechanisms. We know there are territory units with some level of protection, but not invulnerable. Cities might be supported if there were much more powerful (still not 100% invulnerable) protections, that were also much more expensive so they would only be built in few places where many players would contribute, size and energy needs would also affect this. The protection could also consist of several elements like, TU, shield generator etc.

 

I haven't played EVE, but I've heard it has citadels or something like that, which are shielded against attacks except for specific set times. Would some gameplay element like that work for cities?

 

This way we could have relatively few places with higher security than what any individual player or small organization could get anywhere outside the safe zone around arkship and as such these areas would be attractive. 

 

I also remember seeing a post on this forum suggesting some system where individual territory has some protection or status and if it is completely surrounded by claimed territory it can be elevated to different status or something like that. This would also be one way to increase the cost of the protection so number of these places would be low enough to gather enough players.

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3 hours ago, Captain Jack said:

Bingo. Join an org, peruse the ship showrooms in the city and pick out a ship. Off you go soldier.

*Clips heels smartly together.* "Ouhya!" Short and simple directives, now we're "shoot first, talk later!" :D

3 hours ago, NanoDot said:

I'm basing my view on what we currently know regarding the DU design.

 

At this point, we know the game world will be massive, but the "safezones" only cover a tiny % of that play area. That is the current reality, and NQ have not given any indication that the ratio will change significantly.

 

We can use "what if" to turn DU into anything we want to, but that's the realm of daydreams. I prefer to work with what we know, rather than how we wish it to be.

 

Sure, creative games like Minecraft have become hugely popular, but none of them are set in a single-shard FFA-PVP environment. If anyone can prove that the Minecraft servers featuring PVP are by far the most popular and numerous, then I'll accept that that audience has a home in DU.

 

I'm intentionally highlighting the harsh realities of DU, because players that enter the game with illusions will be the most vicious haters of the game when those illusions are shattered.

Ah, the last italic point, yeah, you may be right here but not only expectations: Early adopters may well be more hardcore and less mainstream as a founder population afterall... well we will see. Still all works wonders for me as it appears to be. B)

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1 hour ago, Captain Jack said:

So lets just build another Eve and call it a day?  Why would you NOT want to cater to those players the same way the game caters to the hard core PvPer? Creative people don't need much (because they're creative). Just look at the recent city event.

It might be that cities and population density should be a function of population size and paying customers. IE Large Orgs end up creating these things for their large memberships out of "blood and fire" (or space equivalent). So maybe it will come after. I kinda assumed it would come first, but it really depends on the game systems and how much agency of player combat and how intense competition is.

 

I do agree, creativity seems high ceiling in this game as you describe above but maybe a product of war as opposed to an alternative?

8 minutes ago, Stig92 said:

The key to cities is having reason for people to gather in limited area. I think another major incentive for this would be security.

 

The first post mentioned raiders, warmongers and griefplayers and if one area can offer protection against this. This depends on the territory mechanisms. We know there are territory units with some level of protection, but not invulnerable. Cities might be supported if there were much more powerful (still not 100% invulnerable) protections, that were also much more expensive so they would only be built in few places where many players would contribute, size and energy needs would also affect this. The protection could also consist of several elements like, TU, shield generator etc.

 

I haven't played EVE, but I've heard it has citadels or something like that, which are shielded against attacks except for specific set times. Would some gameplay element like that work for cities?

 

This way we could have relatively few places with higher security than what any individual player or small organization could get anywhere outside the safe zone around arkship and as such these areas would be attractive. 

 

I also remember seeing a post on this forum suggesting some system where individual territory has some protection or status and if it is completely surrounded by claimed territory it can be elevated to different status or something like that. This would also be one way to increase the cost of the protection so number of these places would be low enough to gather enough players.

Yeah I think you hit the same idea as me: Cities being a product of org success as a consequence and suitably well organized and defended and functionally useful to the industrial-war-complex of the org itself and it's continual power projection?

 

I do hope to see my Gothic Cathedral with JC Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor though!

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Back to the economic reasons to build cities. Someone mentioned large factories/power plants as being more effective. That won't change much - people will just build as big as they need/can afford.

 

It would work much better if factories for anything higher tier than "very basic" were only available in XXXXL size, producing only one type of component, and requiring each other in close proximity. Their production output should easily fulfil needs of hundreds of players. But their upkeep cost (whenever they are being used or not) makes them economical if you use them constantly.

 

There is also all the simple artificial stuff - kind of "aura" that work only in certain proximity, and has constant high upkeep cost, no matter how many people use it. They work great in games that try to encourage city building (i.e. Anno series).

Stuff like "laboratory" that you need x amount nearby to unlock certain tech level. 

 

Another incentive for independent players to gather and build stuff in one place could be de-centralised trading system: Instead of single "trading hub" that handles whole stock market, I'd rather see a lot of smaller, private shops co-existing next to each other.

How to? Make the trading system super simple: Owner of the shop is owner of all the goods in there. He's also the only one who can create passive offers ("want to buy", "want to sell"), and everyone else can only accept those offers (which is always less profitable). That create need to build a lot of shops of various sizes, with individual landing pads, storage buildings, item dispensers, ect.

Of course Trade Information Unit gathers the info from all shops all and display them as "stock market", so finding the best offer is not a chore. But you need to physically go to specific shop and buy the stuff in person.
It also clears the problems with "What happen when my resources are in shop that get looted? Do I get refund from shop owner?" or "Someone flooded my storage with tons of dirt".

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25 minutes ago, CalenLoki said:

Another incentive for independent players to gather and build stuff in one place could be de-centralised trading system: Instead of single "trading hub" that handles whole stock market, I'd rather see a lot of smaller, private shops co-existing next to each other.

How to? Make the trading system super simple: Owner of the shop is owner of all the goods in there. He's also the only one who can create passive offers ("want to buy", "want to sell"), and everyone else can only accept those offers (which is always less profitable). That create need to build a lot of shops of various sizes, with individual landing pads, storage buildings, item dispensers, ect.

NQ has said on multiple occasions that there will be player built markets.

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Yes, I know. The question is - how will they do that. It can be de-centralised on global scale, but centralised locally. (i.e. only large orgs can afford market unit)

I'd go for de-centralised all the way down to individual players - so trade within even small org is possible, viable and common.

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Free market, black market all the way. High risk but you dont worry about purchase though trading hub or those area control by "Big bad Org" ...

But i didnt hear that trading market will be costly. So i assume that small group should able to craft a trading hub or market unit or what ever it is too.

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22 minutes ago, CalenLoki said:

Yes, I know. The question is - how will they do that. It can be de-centralised on global scale, but centralised locally. (i.e. only large orgs can afford market unit)

I'd go for de-centralised all the way down to individual players - so trade within even small org is possible, viable and common.

Wont know till the NDA is lifted. My guess though is that anyone will be able to create and customise a market unit via the permission system as to who can use it, therefore allowing them to be everything from open to the world, to an alliance to a corporation.

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Yeah. We're all in the "wild guess" territory.

 

Another thing that may work for or against cities is the size of single claimable territory. While of course owner of TCU (i.e. town mayor) can grant permission to build single construct to another player (i.e. citizen), the permission to dig around affect whole plot of land. So if citizen get permission to dig his basement, he automatically get permission to dig tunnels all around the town (which may be later used by enemy army or sth).

 

If plots of land are small (i.e. the size of typical small building - 50x50m) then the problem is easy to fix - just allow him to dig only within single TU.

If they are big (1km2), then you need quite harsh home-rules regarding digging: either allow it only to specialised trustworthy people or give digging permission only for very limited time. Both hinder creativity of citizens.

 

Alternative could be sub-TCU, that have very limited range (25m radius) but allow creating localised exception for digging/constructing RDMS. Just so town mayor can manage digging right with finer precision.

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2 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

There is also all the simple artificial stuff - kind of "aura" that work only in certain proximity, and has constant high upkeep cost, no matter how many people use it. They work great in games that try to encourage city building (i.e. Anno series).

thats exactly what i wouldnt want to see in DU, because is basically magic, not really scientific.

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On 4/11/2018 at 9:14 AM, vylqun said:

To have a somewhat imersive experience in Dual Universe we definitely need to see cities. But why exactly would people create cities in DU if just use a vast amount of resources without any real benefit except for showing off?

 

Normally city planning depends on  a lot of different factors, like the environment, available resources, especially food, the condition of the ground, expected industries etc. Those are mostly things that wont work in DU. On the other hand, building cities in DU has quite a lot of disadvantages, like being target for raiders, warmongers or just griefplayers. So without any real benefit or need to create cities we will at most have very few large organization building and maintaining a city as HQ and maybe one or two trading hubs. Mostly we'll see well hidden factories and bases which are statistically placed across the planets with nearly no clustering.

 

There are two possible ways to facilitate cities. One is giving artificial benefits like production bonus or similar things, i wont advocate that as it is unrealistic and just shows a lack of creativity in the game design. The second way is giving realistic incentives. The only incentives that work on larger scales in a mmorpg are economic or security benefits or needs. Social or educational facilities can be mostly ignored (there could be University-Type elements that increase the speed of accumulating xp for the first 20% or something of the skilltree, with which organizations can cater to new players, but that wont be a real incentive for creating a city).

 

In my mind there are three mechanics which would directly create the need for clustering buildings on a small area:

 

1. Powergrid

The first suggestion is, that all functional elements (Doors, electronics etc.) require electricity. Standard, small sized elements would need a marginal amount of power so, that a small generator that can easily be installed in every ship/building is sufficient to support them. More advanced facilities like factories, Elements with strong supporting effects (something like the University for example, or greenhouses), military elements (planetary turrets, shields, sensor units ...) however should have an exponential increase of the power required. Factory units for example should require enough power, that no stacking of small generators can support them.

To support those power hungry elements players can build power plant elements which are extremely large on scale, like 64³m³. They would support buildings within a certain radius with a set amount of power and to increase that radius you could create power-relay stations. What does this do for city building? If players want to run a factory or other facilities they need to create a power plant. If a single power plant generates enough electricity to support several factories, then the economic way of action would be creating enough factories within the vicinity of a power plant to  effectively use the generated power. A large cluster of factories in turn needs military protection as it is a nice target for raiders, thus we have some kind of city growth. At the same time owners of those power plants could rent space in the effective radius for players which can afford to create a factory, but not the required power plant.

 

This can be extended to every kind of large scale element which would be nice to have in a city, for example if we want a space port in the city. The simplest way would be to just create some flat areas for ships to land on. But what about quality of life services like refuelling or rearing constructs? Those actions can take ages. If we had large scale elements like a repair Dock, which repairs damaged ships in the vicinity if activated or refuelling stations, those can save a lot of time to players. Elements like that would also require a lot of power, thus the need for a power plant in the vicinity.

 

In short, if every advanced element has a big size and a large power requirement, coupled with the need of power plants, we would by default see clusters of buildings which can be called cities.

 

2. Resources

We can see in some videos how the ground is removed with a tool, its fast, efficient and effortless. if we can mine resources in this way, then DU players will be like a big locust swarm, run across the surface of a planet, scanning and within hours mining all interesting resources. But a big influence on city-building is the need to create a permanent structure in specific places, thus mining resources should definitely not be near-instant. Optimally mining out a big underground ore vein should take years if done by hand or several months when done with elements for mining. If we have long term mining then locations get a certain economic and strategic importance. If an organization finds a large vein of a rare metal it can't just mine it and go away, it has to defend this place against other players. Thus they need to create defensive structures, which again need power plants. If you have defensive structures and power plants on a mining base and some power surplus due to it then its economic to just continue and create the needed refinery elements etc. too, which in turn leads to clusters of buildings again.

 

3. Dependencies

Similar as all functional elements require electricity there can be other dependencies which make it necessary to create several constructs at the same place. In the new content update we learn about market Bots, where resources can be sold for quanta and elements can be bought (probably very limited after crafting is implemented, but maybe some of the most basic elements can still be bought). Those Quanta and elements aren't created from void and the sold resources can't spontaneously vanish. So if someone wants to place market bots in his base, it would make sense to require a trading hub element in the vicinity. There are quite some heavy industries which are dependent on water as coolant, so some refinery elements could actually need water purification plants in the area, the same plants could be used to support greenhouses or other buildings with water. If several buildings depend on each other there is a huge potential to incline people to gather together and create cities. Especially as everyone has a limited amount of cores available.

 

########

 

I really think that those three points are absolutely necessary for a good experience in DU and will lead to some pretty interesting results.

I believe cities will pop up around trading hubs. Trading hubs need markets. Markets need stations and gas stations. Gas stations need transport and goods from far away. Transport needs more stations and infrastructure which need construction. Construction needs construction companies which then need more materials, which then bring traders to the area which then make houses and bases, and so the city begins to grow and grow in such a way similar to western cities. Additionally all these facilities would need maintenance, security, and transport infrastructure for just walking, which on it's own would help spur business, and perhaps even power as you mentioned. Mining should not be too easy on a large scale, or else it will make it to easy and flood the market, but it should not be turned into a difficult thing to do either. The cities that are made around just around resources are always temporary. Jita, in EvE, became a trade hub because it used to be full of asteroids. Now you can hardly see a single one, but because all the players went there to sell and buy goods and now there are factories there it remains an important area. 

 

What ends up happening is that if a city is built near resources and is able to build other infrastructure, say services, factories, and trading houses, it will be able to then simply use these massive facilities to work imported goods, which will then support the trading houses and because of all the volume people will go there, which increases volume which generally increases the amount of people going to that trade hub, etc. I think that factories and other such added value processes should be expensive investments, not mobile operations, as this will force centers of commerce to form and cause cities to grow more easily. 

 

That's just my personal opinion, I am open to any other ideas. 

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2 minutes ago, Caesares said:

I believe cities will pop up around trading hubs. Trading hubs need markets. Markets need stations and gas stations. Gas stations need transport and goods from far away. Transport needs more stations and infrastructure which need construction. Construction needs construction companies which then need more materials, which then bring traders to the area which then make houses and bases, and so the city begins to grow and grow in such a way similar to western cities. Additionally all these facilities would need maintenance, security, and transport infrastructure for just walking

trading hubs, sure, yes, that's one of the only reason for players to build something resembling a city. Gas stations? just another shop in the trading hub if there is no special element for fast refills. Transports? either ships or player inventories, construction companies are most likely unneeded and materials just count as another item that shos, ships or a players inventory caries. And most traders won't really build a house around trading hubs, because traders live from being able to move. They will build their stall and thats it (players, especially traders tend to play in an economic way). 

 

I think most of the reasons you think would lead to growing cities are just wishful thinking.

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18 minutes ago, vylqun said:

trading hubs, sure, yes, that's one of the only reason for players to build something resembling a city. Gas stations? just another shop in the trading hub if there is no special element for fast refills. Transports? either ships or player inventories, construction companies are most likely unneeded and materials just count as another item that shos, ships or a players inventory caries. And most traders won't really build a house around trading hubs, because traders live from being able to move. They will build their stall and thats it (players, especially traders tend to play in an economic way). 

 

I think most of the reasons you think would lead to growing cities are just wishful thinking.

I don't know. If you look at most games this is generally what happens, where business becomes centralized. Sure maybe the traders will need business but there will probably be players who will live in the area to support the trade hub and they will allow for the growing of cities into larger areas. But then again, there is no real example to go by. 

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1 minute ago, Caesares said:

But then again, there is no real example to go by. 

Exactly that, all current MMORPG have prebuilt cities which normaly serve as trading hubs. We wont have that in DU, so most trading hubs will be on the sacntuary moons and, if possible, maybe at the arkship. There is just no need at all to build a city just for trading in some random location that isn't save from if there are no other incentives.

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4 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

Another incentive for independent players to gather and build stuff in one place could be de-centralised trading system: Instead of single "trading hub" that handles whole stock market, I'd rather see a lot of smaller, private shops co-existing next to each other.

How to? Make the trading system super simple: Owner of the shop is owner of all the goods in there. He's also the only one who can create passive offers ("want to buy", "want to sell"), and everyone else can only accept those offers (which is always less profitable). That create need to build a lot of shops of various sizes, with individual landing pads, storage buildings, item dispensers, ect.

The most significant difference between DU's markets/Auction House/shops and other MMO's is that in DU, the trade goods all have to be stored in the game world.

 

In DU, when you list an item for sale, it doesn't vanish from your inventory into an alternate dimension (the Auction House), from where it magically pops into the inventory of the person that buys it. Anything listed for sale on a market terminal has to be placed in a storage container attached to that terminal. So "big markets" will need "big storage".

 

And I have no idea how constructs will be handled.

 

So your scenario of "many smaller shops" may actually materialise...

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4 hours ago, vylqun said:

Exactly that, all current MMORPG have prebuilt cities which normaly serve as trading hubs. We wont have that in DU, so most trading hubs will be on the sacntuary moons and, if possible, maybe at the arkship. There is just no need at all to build a city just for trading in some random location that isn't save from if there are no other incentives.

Resources and positioning can cause such things. Look at Jita

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Probably any city build will resemble the starwars idea, small blobs around a trading and mercenary post resembling a bar where you can post work/bounties with a big slab to land and some safety towers and alot of debris of failed landings. But nothing wrong with that, it needs to start somewhere. We must not focus on what will be build in the first month, think about what will still be there after a year and that shows what will be effective in DU so any presumptions now are useless. 

Probably the city we will see first will have no incentive but only lets see what we can really build here. And that depends on the ease of building and gathering. If concrete is easely made with some basic mining, and simple doors and windows too then we will see large concrete buildings with landing slaps on them or something. But if the requirements are to high only small borgcube like pvpdefence hubs will spawn so atleast you can keep your stuff somewhat safe without grinding for basic materials.

 

So what will the first city look like? We can only tell that after we know more about mining and crafting basics for home building.

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9 hours ago, NanoDot said:

The most significant difference between DU's markets/Auction House/shops and other MMO's is that in DU, the trade goods all have to be stored in the game world.

 

In DU, when you list an item for sale, it doesn't vanish from your inventory into an alternate dimension (the Auction House), from where it magically pops into the inventory of the person that buys it. Anything listed for sale on a market terminal has to be placed in a storage container attached to that terminal. So "big markets" will need "big storage".

 

And I have no idea how constructs will be handled.

 

So your scenario of "many smaller shops" may actually materialise...

I know about storage space. It's even included in my post you quoted.

 

The point of my post was: "town" is a place where a lot of semi-independent entities (players, small orgs, large orgs) build stuff right next to each other.

If just one org build huge trading hub, with many enormous storage buildings, that's not a town. That's a base. And there is no reason for anyone else to build stuff around, because that base handle all the trade, storage, refuelling, repairing and respawning.

10 hours ago, vylqun said:

thats exactly what i wouldnt want to see in DU, because is basically magic, not really scientific.

I have mixed feeling about it. It could be seen as "symbolic representation of something too complex to simulate in game", not necessarily magic.

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3 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

The point of my post was: "town" is a place where a lot of semi-independent entities (players, small orgs, large orgs) build stuff right next to each other.

If just one org build huge trading hub, with many enormous storage buildings, that's not a town. That's a base. And there is no reason for anyone else to build stuff around, because that base handle all the trade, storage, refuelling, repairing and respawning.

That is a pretty solid point, though one reason people build stuff is because they simply want to build stuff. There will definitely be a place for orgs to plop down bases and offer it's services to all it's members, which is great, but if those orgs can extend their protection beyond the base so that the... peasants, er... commoners, can build their own non-militarized infrastructure, that would be kinda cool too. It kinda goes back to medieval times with a castle on the hill, but it does fit the rebuilding of civilization mold.

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4 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

-snip-

And there is no reason for anyone else to build stuff around, because that base handle all the trade, storage, refuelling, repairing and respawning.

-snip-

One reason to build would be to compete.  If another org wants to hurt this orgs bottom line ( and hopefully there will be enough competition that this will always be true). They’ll set up a competitive market across the street.  Or if there isn’t as much business there a smaller outfit could build a smaller market base with less overhead to compete by having less expensive trade fees.

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4 minutes ago, Felonu said:

One reason to build would be to compete.  If another org wants to hurt this orgs bottom line ( and hopefully there will be enough competition that this will always be true). They’ll set up a competitive market across the street.  Or if there isn’t as much business there a smaller outfit could build a smaller market base with less overhead to compete by having less expensive trade fees.

It's an interesting scenario, but "across the street" competition will only be possible in safezones, of course.

 

I'd imagine the "central market" will be in the arkship safezone right after launch, but that will move to a MSA fairly soon as players start spreading outward. If anyone succeeds in building a "market station" in a convenient location outside the safezone, that will most probably become THE market for the entire system, but keeping THAT safe will be a monumental task.

 

In EVE with its massive game world, Jita reigns supreme as the "central market".

 

Players always prefer a "one-stop-shop", that has been the pattern since the "East Commonlands Trading Tunnel" became a thing in old EQ...

 

 

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a central market sound fun. But i doubt it will locate at any org territory.

I think it will locate at a territory where an org found by multi org. Like Tortuga city is example, where many org come to build a single city so that city is not under anyone.

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25 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

a central market sound fun. But i doubt it will locate at any org territory.

I think it will locate at a territory where an org found by multi org. Like Tortuga city is example, where many org come to build a single city so that city is not under anyone.

There would be no benefit in doing that aside from a little higher security. In contrary, a shared market between many orgs would lead to lower prices because there are more people selling the same stuff, thus its not desireable.

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