New Players vs Veteran Players

[Majestic]

What are the plans looking forward years when it comes to new players?

 

I've played numerous MMO's, a few of them for several years and they have all pretty much followed the same path.  At first you play the game and level up and learn the ins and outs of the game, you reach end game and start getting the high end gear/vehicles. You get to stroke your Epeen knowing that you have some nice gear from your time and effort.  After a couple of years, the playerbase starts to separate into hardcore and casual players. The blitzers have left by now(the ones that will probably post their reviews on release day), and your left with your core player base. 

 

Then the drive to get new players kicks in and what happens more often than not is the game starts to get dumbed down to accomodate the new players. As a result the gameplay suffers too.  An influx of inexperienced players into a complex game usually creates some sort of drama,  your original core player base starts to get fed up and drifts away from the game, either from frustration at not being able to find enough knowledgable players to play with or because it isn't vanilla anymore, boredom or some other game tweaking their interest. Now your heading towards a core player base that is largely new players, as a result more dumbing down and eventually you end up with an Arcade game allbeit one that makes alot of money because its a great business model.

 

The worst part of all this from a player side(for me at least), especially on a MMO's is that it no longer matters how much time you put into a game, you just pay, skip the levelling and learning part of the game and jump straight in at the deep end locking horns with other players that have spent time and effort to develop their account over years. It's when the dumbing down starts I usually start to lose interest in a game.

 

All the pre-planning and all the amazing ideas and designs are then wasted and forgotten. 

 

Do you have any thoughts on trying to keep the veteran players, either rewards for time played(e.g. gameplay tokens, unique skins) or maybe using some of them as in-game Authority(teachers, guides, moderators etc) or trying to maintain the 'vanilla' gameplay.

 

Getting new players up to speed will be pretty important, a strong in game help system, automated or otherwise would help alot.  Educate the player don't change the game.

 

 

[The_War_Doctor]

first I don't think this will be as big an issue as you are thinking for this game. This game is going to be more like EVE than WoW, which is what youre describing it feels like. The Devs cant really dumb the game down cause all they are giving us is a world and tools, and I don't think this game is going to have "levels" per say. We have research and skills we learn over time. This is adult space minecraft with eve's politics and emergent gameplay effectively. Because the only "end game" present in this game is the wars between players it wont be hard for new players to start and get on a semblance of even footing because in a few years I don't foresee a lot of new player orgs being formed, at least not by new players, so all the new players will be joining existing orgs with players who have experience who will teach them how to play. as an org can only be as strong as its weakest link.

 

Unlike eve and wow and a lot of mmo's out there this game requires team work. can you play solo? sure. Are you going to get screwed by almost any org in the game? probably

[Anaximander]

It's simple.


New player rolls in the game.


New player wants to be ground forces PvP.


He enlists as a Private in an army.


He fights and becomes a squad leader, division leader, platoon leader.


Two years down the line, the previous player who held the genrals position leaves / ragequits / wants to do something else. That new player now becomes a General.

And the salt mines run smoothly.

Spaceships, especially warships in the sizes of battlecruisers and beyond, will take skill and expertise for a faction to give you one to command.

Same logic applies.

This kind of core gameplay, is rewarding and it only covers the military.


Trading / crafting / privateering, they all are staples and remain in the game no matter the years.


So, a veteran in the game, will only have his status as a veteran over a new player and all the social interactions that go with it.

You can't expect the devs to program players to have years of social interactions with new players. That's the only real advantage a veteran has in a Sandbox MMO.

[Kirtis]

Real sandbox (and this game is being introduced as one) makes no difference between "veteran" and newbro - as long as you have time to play and brought some shovel  you'll be given plenty of sand to play with. If you play longer, may be you'll have better skills how to build nice looking sand castle and you'll have made more friends who are helping you to protect your creations from bully who likes to destroy stuff - or you might make more enemies over time if you have chosen to be that above mentioned bully :-) but otherwise it does not mater if you are veteran or not.

 

Talking about recognition of veterans, casual and hardcore players and stuff like that is all good and nice but reality is that if the game is too hardcore and rewards veterans for their time spend, then it will become more and more niche game over time with smaller player base. If it's too easy and too casual it will never keep the attention of players and motivate to stay in game for a long time. So eventually all that matters are social skills of the player it self: if he manages to make friends and have fun together with them then they'll probably create all they need from a truckload of sand, several shovels and couple of buckets. If you can't create your own content and don't have friends who can help you with that then any game will get boring, dull and pointless sooner or later.

[Anaximander]

Real sandbox (and this game is being introduced as one) makes no difference between "veteran" and newbro - as long as you have time to play and brought some shovel  you'll be given plenty of sand to play with. If you play longer, may be you'll have better skills how to build nice looking sand castle and you'll have made more friends who are helping you to protect your creations from bully who likes to destroy stuff - or you might make more enemies over time if you have chosen to be that above mentioned bully :-) but otherwise it does not mater if you are veteran or not.

 

Talking about recognition of veterans, casual and hardcore players and stuff like that is all good and nice but reality is that if the game is too hardcore and rewards veterans for their time spend, then it will become more and more niche game over time with smaller player base. If it's too easy and too casual it will never keep the attention of players and motivate to stay in game for a long time. So eventually all that matters are social skills of the player it self: if he manages to make friends and have fun together with them then they'll probably create all they need from a truckload of sand, several shovels and couple of buckets. If you can't create your own content and don't have friends who can help you with that then any game will get boring, dull and pointless sooner or later.

Friends DO make a difference between veteras and newbies. That nobody can change. That's the only real power of a veteran in a sandbox game.

[wesbruce]

Remember the game need not dumb down to attract newbies if it's designed well and we have multiple planets and systems. A few orgs will set up classic game play on some and others could be set up for that new world start from scratch and pull in new player with a space bus. The game has only one starting Arkship but many more left earth so even new untouched starting worlds are a possibility if Arkzone crowding becomes an intractable game play problem some time down the line. 

As for rewards for established players; my game within a game idea may be useful. Allow established players to acquire artefacts and integrate them into a virtual reality build. Challenge maps, puzzle maps, lost ships and lore story ruins, or just loot filled deathtraps. Have an algorithm pop these out into the world with even the creator not knowing where. Now you hunt your creation or leave it for others to find. When found the hunter has an ability to communicate his find back to you the creator and thank you for it / or politely cruise your fiendish traps. 

Thus people with some depth in the game end up part dev, part lore creator and part dungeon keeper. Lore lords as well as war lords. Story tellers as well as merchant princes and Ancient Alien adversary as well as master craftsmen. 

[Trigun]

pssshhhh

[elDunco]

Already seeing some veteran players before the game even drops

[Anaximander]

Already seeing some veteran players before the game even drops

Seeing your profile picture, I got to ask something serious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you Winter Soldier? And if you are, does the metal arm hinder you while sleeping?

[DaSchiz]

The thing about this game that I like is unlike Eve the universe is almost infinite.  This stops the staleness of a couple huge groups controlling most of the universe suffocating any newbies.  Newbies and new organizations can simply move out further to build their empire.  No organization will be able to control the universe or even a handful.

 

As stated above, this isn't so much as a level system and like Eve someone a couple months in could have more fighting skills than someone a couple years in who worked on industry or whatever.

 

Also maybe this is just me being hopeful, but with the openness on a scale never done before this truly allows some ingenuity.  New situations allow for new opportunities and those even new may see a better way to do something or make something.  I've heard of new games as they come out being called an Eve killer but if JC and crew pull this thing off this really can be an Eve killer.

[ostris]

I feel like the emergent gameplay in DU will help prevent this type of thing. In most other games the content is static. The only way for a player to get this piece of gear or that piece of gear is to kill a boss. The only way to let new players not have to spend years playing is to provide shortcuts or make content easier. However with DU they have stated that their hope is new players will have a very different experience then the veteran players did. Veteran players will have to mine and build the first ships at great expense. In a year or two new players might be able to haul some cargo or join a org and then buy/borrow a fighter and dive in to pvp or w/e it is. Skills will take time but content will change with the game.

[Volkier]

I hear what you are saying. I am also extremely afraid of this. It's the reason why I have left 90% of the MMOs I've played. The 'sandbox' gets replaced with a supervised ball pit, the hours you spent building a sandcastle are wasted because sand is no longer relevant, you can't really do anything else other than throw generic balls that are the same shape and size (varying only in colour) around, and that shiny toy that you had to stab several other kids with plastic spades for is now irrelevant because everyone is given a better one when they enter by default.

 

I do believe that there is plenty of direction that DU can 'expand' in, to give older players something to do, and I also hope that the demand for "more complex" (or rather non dumbed down console crap) games has reached enough of a critical mass by now. So I guess the best we can do is subscribe, play and enjoy the game when it's released, pray to Cthulhu that the expansions expand the universe in terms of space, materials and abilities rather than removal or dumbing down of features, and if it jumps on the current MMO bandwagon, unsubscribe and enjoy a nice glass of bleach while sitting in a bath-tub making toast. 

 

In a nutshell, I think what DU is currently promising, would be more than enough to keep a large portion of their current fanbase interested for a pretty long time. Especially as there is literally no comparable game on the market today. Look at Minecraft - though it's not my cup of tea, and I personally wouldn't play it, it's still relevant and still played, and that's literally a single digit percentage of what DU brings to the table. And if a competitor does come along, I guess it would be up to the developers then to decide how they would want to keep DU unique, whether they would listen to their older fanbase versus trying to market it to more people and what direction the game would take then.

 

EDIT: Also agree 100% with what #3 said. Spot on. Though there is still the whole notion of the 'general trend' games take, and not necessarily because / in spite of the playerbase. 

[Majestic]

The single Shard model will probably open up a whole bunch of its own social issues. like If you don't get on with a person or a group, there isn't really anywhere to go other than offline. So it will be intersting to see how this impacts the gameplay.  Keeping both Rookie and Veteran players active will be the tricky part because of various issues that already existed in MMo's, adding this new model will be interesting.

 

 We all know how poisonous the online community can be.  It will be a huge job policing such an open game, which will probably be the cause of a load of forum grief and inevitable rage quits.  The only way to avoid most of the issues will be to give players other activities that won't involve direct contact.

 

As with all games, any content thats put in the game now will be absorbed in a ridiculously short time. This is often padded out in MMO's with some sort of grind.  The only way to avoid the 'burn out' you get after years of a game with a grind mechanic is to change or add something.  No-one will be happy with change so plans to add stuff for veteran players now will only benefit.

 

Make the destination worth the journey.

[Anaximander]

The single Shard model will probably open up a whole bunch of its own social issues. like If you don't get on with a person or a group, there isn't really anywhere to go other than offline. So it will be intersting to see how this impacts the gameplay.  Keeping both Rookie and Veteran players active will be the tricky part because of various issues that already existed in MMo's, adding this new model will be interesting.

 

 We all know how poisonous the online community can be.  It will be a huge job policing such an open game, which will probably be the cause of a load of forum grief and inevitable rage quits.  The only way to avoid most of the issues will be to give players other activities that won't involve direct contact.

 

As with all games, any content thats put in the game now will be absorbed in a ridiculously short time. This is often padded out in MMO's with some sort of grind.  The only way to avoid the 'burn out' you get after years of a game with a grind mechanic is to change or add something.  No-one will be happy with change so plans to add stuff for veteran players now will only benefit.

 

Make the destination worth the journey.

If a person is anti-scoail and their jimmies are rustled with the slightest provocation, those people won't be having any real success in life either

 

 

Involving not direct contact... how? All jobs are given by players. You will have to be near other players sometimes, if someoe contracts you to mine on a planet they own. Your excuse stands only for PvP.

 

If people don't like PvP, they should stay in safe space, not go into the flippin' equivalent of downtown Kabul in space.

 

 

Space trucking? It has risks of piracy. You can't stop that.

 

 

Exploring? You got the risk of running to people who are trolls and will grief you. Can't stop that either.

 

Please, define your expectation of "not direct contact". A veteran can teach a new player, like they do it in EVE, with the organisation called EVE University, that's sole purpopse is to help new players learn the game. It's a SADBOX MMO. These kind of things are meant for Sandbox MMOs, both the griefing and the tutoring.

[Majestic]

I mean the ability to break contact with specific players in harassment cases not to avoid people all together, that would be silly. I'm not talking about the slightest provocation too, this is the internet after all, there will be.. drama's.

[Anaximander]

I mean the ability to break contact with specific players in harassment cases not to avoid people all together, that would be silly. I'm not talking about the slightest provocation too, this is the internet after all, there will be.. drama's.

On the drama part, that's the point of a sandbox game as well. The Devs don't create any lore, we players do. Check out THIS . In EVE, this kind of things happen a lot. Check out the whole story playing out. It's not made by the devs, everyone in that story was an actual person, not NPCs.

 

 

Avoiding one person is quite impossible. You can't ask for the devs to make a universe without instances and then ask them to phase out people  As I said, f you aren't the PvP guy, don't PvP, if you are the miner kind of guy, get people to protect you or run with an organisation that can provide such protection.

[Majestic]

Well not that kind of drama, I mean offensive, abusive, harrasment, stuff that doesn't belong in a game. I'm not looking for PVE.  The kind of drama in that vid is fun but there are those that will go too far and ruin it for other players.

[Anaximander]

Well not that kind of drama, I mean offensive, abusive, harrasment, stuff that doesn't belong in a game. I'm not looking for PVE.  The kind of drama in that vid is fun but there are those that will go too far and ruin it for other players.

Well, then, you clearly miss the point of a sandbox game. Sandbox games have no defined bad guys. What you ask is for the game to have no bad uys, which is not part of the veteran vs new player discussion I believe. 

 

 

Your idea of griefers is not unwarranted by any stretch, which is why there are people who want to play the "cops" in this game, by actively going affter griefer bases and leveling them to the ground.

 

 

If you are not in it for the PvE and not want to be found in PvP... then you must be a builder. You are lucky then, you will be in the regions of space where PvP doesn't really take place. PvP will take place in no man's space between factions or in the border regions. People who don't want PvP won't be found in PvP to begin with. If someone keeps spamming you with insults, ignore them. They kill you? Report them to your faction They are not punished? Build up support and call in for some black ops to ruin THEIR day. 

 

 

This is what a sandbox game is You cna't have the best parts without the worst parts They are both needed.

[Warden]

People seem to make a big fuss about or out of drama. While it may often not be pretty for the involved parties, I think some may overblow it.

 

After all to a conflict, all involved parties can do their part to end or prolong one. Social problems or other occur all the time - how (fast) you deal with them is often still up to you, however, even if you are not the initiating party.

[Anaximander]

People seem to make a big fuss about or out of drama. While it may often not be pretty for the involved parties, I think some may overblow it.

 

After all to a conflict, all involved parties can do their part to end or prolong one. Social problems or other occur all the time - how (fast) you deal with them is often still up to you, however, even if you are not the initiating party.

Well, that's the ting. People are competitive Facitons of equal strength fight each other to establish who's the ttop dog Drama ensues  from the middle stuff, like tactics, arguements, politics in a faction and all that 

 

This is why a veteran has more power over a new player The veerann tok time to set up himself in status and reputation. The new player hasn't yet

 

 

Such conflict also involve a lot of new players to be used as undercover agents in other factions, due to them not being known by name or have a background in the game. So yeah, a veteran won't be able to pull an infiltration easily. Everything works out.

[Sethcran]

The single Shard model will probably open up a whole bunch of its own social issues. like If you don't get on with a person or a group, there isn't really anywhere to go other than offline. So it will be intersting to see how this impacts the gameplay.  Keeping both Rookie and Veteran players active will be the tricky part because of various issues that already existed in MMo's, adding this new model will be interesting.

 

 We all know how poisonous the online community can be.  It will be a huge job policing such an open game, which will probably be the cause of a load of forum grief and inevitable rage quits.  The only way to avoid most of the issues will be to give players other activities that won't involve direct contact.

 

As with all games, any content thats put in the game now will be absorbed in a ridiculously short time. This is often padded out in MMO's with some sort of grind.  The only way to avoid the 'burn out' you get after years of a game with a grind mechanic is to change or add something.  No-one will be happy with change so plans to add stuff for veteran players now will only benefit.

 

Make the destination worth the journey.

 

I definitely think that this will exist, but I also think that this is one of the things that really drives the emergent gameplay.

 

In wow, if you hated someone on your server, you'd ignore them and that was about it. You couldn't take it out on them, or really do anything against them at all.

 

In DU though, this can be the type of thing that starts wars. This is that content that gets created and keeps players absorbed, so while little incidents may rustle some jimmies and cause a player to quit in other games, in this one, it could be the impetus that creates content for thousands of more players. This is a huge part of how EvE has stayed relevant for as long as it has.

[wesbruce]

Remember even the starting planet is a big place. A 70 km radius planet is 60000 square km area. Lots of room for a new player to get away from the hustle and bustle of the older players builds, corporations and wars. Assuming no one has a magic scanner that detects everyone on the ground automatically from high up its easy to mix new and veteran.  This is made easier by a few player groups that choose to help the new players find untouched wilderness.  

Nova quark could help by adding a few "call buttons"; Items that allow players to hail vehicle with an integral pickup and delivery contract. Space Uber.  Lock the transaction to pay 2 minutes after drop off in the passenger has not died. Thus Jim could call for a two seated vehicle to scoop him up and drop him somewhere: wilderness, city, mine. So if the driver is a greefer he does not get payed if he drops and then kills you for your stuff. Anyone that does that will get a bounty on his head and may find the next person he drops off was bait and has backup. 

Just make sure the call button does not spam single seated craft and irritate all the fighter jocks.