Item Degradation

[yamamushi]

Sometimes I post things even though I know they are going to be an unpopular topic because I still think they are interesting to think about. 

 

Item Degradation is one of those topics.

 

 

I wonder if items in DU will decay over time, perhaps requiring repairs by using elements (repair machines) that could only be operated by someone with the appropriate skills. 

 

I should specify that this idea is specifically about items that your character carries; armor, guns, tools, etc. 

 

It's pretty much a given that we'd expect ships to take damage and require repairs over time. 

 

 

Would using an item cause it to decay in quality over time, or would it have to take damage to decay over time? Would dying possibly cause it to take damage? 

[DaSchiz]

As long as it isn't overdone ... such as needing to repair way too often that it turns into NMS recharging .... did I type that out loud?

[yamamushi]

As long as it isn't overdone ... such as needing to repair way too often that it turns into NMS recharging .... did I type that out loud?

 

Yes, please no item recharging constantly like in NMS. It was excessive. 

[Velenka]

I should specify that this idea is specifically about items that your character carries; armor, guns, tools, etc. 

 

It's pretty much a given that we'd expect ships to take damage and require repairs over time.

 

Would using an item cause it to decay in quality over time, or would it have to take damage to decay over time? Would dying possibly cause it to take damage?

 

I don't think you can brush off ship damage so easily. Certainly they will probably take damage, but not all the time. Probably not even a significant amount of time for non-combat constructs. I think some kind of degradation can be applied to ship elements just like character equipment. I would say that degradation should only occur to the mesh elements, since it would be quite a pain to have to repair every 25cm voxel in a large ship, even with lots of repair crews.

 

Degradation could happen in stages: first stage would be comparable to simple cleaning and maintenance and is low cost. Second stage begins to affect the performance of the element and has medium cost to repair. Stages beyond would cause serious performance issues and be very costly to repair, nearing the same resources it takes to build the element anew.

 

Degradation should cause decay per use. IRL that's how devices and machines' lifetimes are usually expressed. IE millions of cycles, hours of operation, miles driven (for cars you should change the oil every 3-10 thousand miles)

 

The rate of decay should obviously be fast enough not to be obnoxious or so slow that it takes too long to affect gameplay. Not really sure where to start but I'd guess somewhere in the ballpark of 20 hours of operation to reach stage 1, 40 for stage 2, 60 for stage 3, etc... Perhaps different rates for different devices as well. I would expect an automatic door to function a lot longer than an FTL drive, both unattended.

 

Maybe that's good, maybe not, just throwing ideas out there too.

[Jeronimo]

How about? we know everything will be built by voxels, that will be destroyable, scratchable (if bump into a tree or a meteorite or anything), so means some voxels will be scratched off the surface of our builds, and will change the volume of voxels.

We also know every builds will be saved as a blue print, a blueprint that saved the volume, property and position of every voxel of a build.

If we have a script, device, element, that can compare the actual state of the construction with this orginal blueprint, it might be possible to monitor the % of dammage.

and also requiering matter, based on the blueprint to repair/restore the object

[Anaximander]

Yes, make items degrade and need maintenance up to a point before my blade is dull from cutting down scubs and requiring a new blade to keep the mayhem going. Ship eaponry have crews for them to repair and maintain the weapons AS THEY SHOULD. 

 

How about? we know everything will be built by voxels, that will be destroyable, scratchable (if bump into a tree or a meteorite or anything), so means some voxels will be scratched off the surface of our builds, and will change the volume of voxels.

We also know every builds will be saved as a blue print, a blueprint that saved the volume, property and position of every voxel of a build.

If we have a script, device, element, that can compare the actual state of the construction with this orginal blueprint, it might be possible to monitor the % of dammage.

and also requiering matter, based on the blueprint to repair/restore the object

Read, The, Devblogs. Or learn the difference between Voxels and 3D  Meshes. You have confused EVERYTHING together and the devs have gone pretty deep in details. If you are cerebrally stereoscopic, then I can hopefully explain.

A Blueprint = a Diagram. You build something, you save it as a blueprint to replicate it quickly.

A Voxel Construct = a thing made of cubes

An Element = A 3D Mesh item you create in the game, like a turret.

Character Gear = Armor, Rifles, Swords, Jetpacks. All of which ARE CERTAINLY NOT MADE WITH VOXELS.

Please, if you don't understand something, ask the forums, provide the according devblog at the start of the post and quote the parts of it you didn't understand. You clearly have a very very very strong idea of how, pretty much, everything WIIL NOT work

Voxels apply to large structures, like a ship's armor and its interior, the hull.

Elements ( 3D Meshes made.in Maya, Blender, etc ) are NOT made with voxels. They are traditional 3D objects, again NOT WITH VOXELS.
These include : Terminals, DPUs (the things we put the LUA scripts in), Cockpits, Ship Weaponry (Laser Cannons, Turrets etc), Modular Parts of any shape or form, Doors, Airlocks, Holographic tables etc.

Elements, can be tied to DPUs, to give them a function with LUA scripts. Voxels cannot be rigged with LUA without an Elemen being attached to them for a function.

Again, fi you don't udnerstand how something works, don't make assumptions and propagate wrong sentiments. 

You are doing what No Man's Hype evangelists did and look where it got that game. 

3D Meshes are NOT made with voxels.




So yeah, armor can be degrading and needing to be replaced / maintained / repaired / whatever. Ships that go geet damage can be repaired with the blueprint though.
 

 

[Jeronimo]

 

Yes, make items degrade and need maintenance up to a point before my blade is dull from cutting down scubs and requiring a new blade to keep the mayhem going. Ship eaponry have crews for them to repair and maintain the weapons AS THEY SHOULD. 

 

Read, The, Devblogs. Or learn the difference between Voxels and 3D  Meshes. You have confused EVERYTHING together and the devs have gone pretty deep in details. If you are cerebrally stereoscopic, then I can hopefully explain.

A Blueprint = a Diagram. You build something, you save it as a blueprint to replicate it quickly.

 

A Voxel Construct = a thing made of cubes

 

An Element = A 3D Mesh item you create in the game, like a turret.

 

Character Gear = Armor, Rifles, Swords, Jetpacks. All of which ARE CERTAINLY NOT MADE WITH VOXELS.

 

Please, if you don't understand something, ask the forums, provide the according devblog at the start of the post and quote the parts of it you didn't understand. You clearly have a very very very strong idea of how, pretty much, everything WIIL NOT work

 

Voxels apply to large structures, like a ship's armor and its interior, the hull.

 

Elements ( 3D Meshes made.in Maya, Blender, etc ) are NOT made with voxels. They are traditional 3D objects, again NOT WITH VOXELS.

These include : Terminals, DPUs (the things we put the LUA scripts in), Cockpits, Ship Weaponry (Laser Cannons, Turrets etc), Modular Parts of any shape or form, Doors, Airlocks, Holographic tables etc.

 

Elements, can be tied to DPUs, to give them a function with LUA scripts. Voxels cannot be rigged with LUA without an Elemen being attached to them for a function.

 

Again, fi you don't udnerstand how something works, don't make assumptions and propagate wrong sentiments. 

 

You are doing what No Man's Hype evangelists did and look where it got that game. 

 

3D Meshes are NOT made with voxels.

 

 

 

 

So yeah, armor can be degrading and needing to be replaced / maintained / repaired / whatever. Ships that go geet damage can be repaired with the blueprint though.

 

 

 

 

any players builds using the ingame builder, like your ship, your armor, static creations, buildings etc.. will be made out of voxels

 

any animated objects, with polygon streching, such as players themselves will be made out of mesh, but uneditable

 

i am giving an example about scratching your ship and loosing voxels on impact, so loosing mass, and difering from the saved blueprint of your ship

 

PLEASE READ PROPERLY, what people post and what devteam post, there are lot of things behind you dont understand such as mechanics and how all this could be made possible

[Anaximander]

any players builds using the ingame builder, like your ship, your armor, static creations, buildings etc.. will be made out of voxels

 

any animated objects, with polygon streching, such as players themselves will be made out of mesh, but uneditable

 

i am giving an example about scratching your ship and loosing voxels on impact, so loosing mass, and difering from the saved blueprint of your ship

 

PLEASE READ PROPERLY, what people post and what devteam post, there are lot of things behind you dont understand such as mechanics and how all this could be made possible

[Jeronimo]

i am sad for you

[Anaximander]

i am sad for you

Likewise.

[Quinn23]

Sometimes I post things even though I know they are going to be an unpopular topic because I still think they are interesting to think about. 

 

Item Degradation is one of those topics.

 

 

I wonder if items in DU will decay over time, perhaps requiring repairs by using elements (repair machines) that could only be operated by someone with the appropriate skills. 

 

I should specify that this idea is specifically about items that your character carries; armor, guns, tools, etc. 

 

It's pretty much a given that we'd expect ships to take damage and require repairs over time. 

 

 

Would using an item cause it to decay in quality over time, or would it have to take damage to decay over time? Would dying possibly cause it to take damage? 

 

This fits well into my thoughts on quality and efficiency. A component or object can be as efficient as any other that serves the function, but the rate of failure or degradation lowers the quality. When making or purchasing an object or component, you get to make the choice of purchasing a higher quality unit for a higher price, or a lower one. Same with efficiency.

[Cornflakes]

any players builds using the ingame builder, like your ship, your armor, static creations, buildings etc.. will be made out of voxels

 

any animated objects, with polygon streching, such as players themselves will be made out of mesh, but uneditable

 

i am giving an example about scratching your ship and loosing voxels on impact, so loosing mass, and difering from the saved blueprint of your ship

 

PLEASE READ PROPERLY, what people post and what devteam post, there are lot of things behind you dont understand such as mechanics and how all this could be made possible

No they wont be.

Vehicles and buildings will be voxels, yes.

But functional parts and player equipment wont be player designed.

 

 

"On the other hand, crafting enables players to make gear and Elements. Those are non-customizable 3d models (meshes)."

 

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/841-ask-us-anything-event/

[Jeronimo]

No they wont be.

Vehicles and buildings will be voxels, yes.

But functional parts and player equipment wont be player designed.

 

 

"On the other hand, crafting enables players to make gear and Elements. Those are non-customizable 3d models (meshes)."

 

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/841-ask-us-anything-event/

 

 

yup i saw that one now about gears

 

a bit sad now, they made the voxel building tool so far but dont push it

 

we will all look the same yay

 

starting to loose interest now lol, its not the sandbox that they pretend if crafting takes too much importance

 

I ll return the question again

[Anaximander]

yup i saw that one now about gears

 

a bit sad now, they made the voxel building tool so far but dont push it

 

we will all look the same yay

 

starting to loose interest now lol, its not the sandbox that they pretend if crafting takes too much importance

 

I ll return the question again

There are technical limitations. Given the scale of the game, I don't feel sad about it. You forget about .tga files and the amazing world of cube-mapping. Not to mention, coats of paint, Lua scripting and tuning of a laser canon to have different utilities than another cannon.

 

 

You won't be able to make ze super gunz existing in Second Life. The Devs need to have balance in the game. You know, balance is needed for PvP to require skill.

[Jeronimo]

There are technical limitations. Given the scale of the game, I don't feel sad about it. You forget about .tga files and the amazing world of cube-mapping. Not to mention, coats of paint, Lua scripting and tuning of a laser canon to have different utilities than another cannon.

 

 

You won't be able to make ze super gunz existing in Second Life. The Devs need to have balance in the game. You know, balance is needed for PvP to require skill.

 

dont talk about *.tga, will means that for a decent definition you ll have to upload 1mo pictures, then when u arrive a zone with 100players, u have to load 100mo to see everyone clearly?

 

how fast will it be to simply load voxel equipments blueprints instead of players imported pictures

 

how complicated is it for them to make an element special for players weapons with a premade script, and you build a weapon same as for ships: everyone will have different guns and ships design, but same scripts in it at the end, if you could custom the color of the lazer beam its already cool

[Anaximander]

dont talk about *.tga, will means that for a decent definition you ll have to upload 1mo pictures, then when u arrive a zone with 100players, u have to load 100mo to see everyone clearly?

 

how fast will it be to simply load voxel equipments blueprints instead of players imported pictures

 

how complicated is it for them to make an element special for players weapons with a premade script, and you build a weapon same as for ships: everyone will have different guns and ships design, but same scripts in it at the end, if you could custom the color of the lazer beam its already cool

You logical leaps are way out of this world.

 

 

You are way above any league of irrational I have ever encountered. You count as a new species on your own.

 

 

Did anyone say anything about uploading the TGA files on our own?

 

 

In the game, when you make an object, given a certain boundaries on its stats the player assigned, the weapon has a different cubemap. A powerful laser cannon with a long cooldown has a larger muzzle on the front, while a rapid fire muzzle has a larger barrel on it. Those things can be added by the devs, to assign vrriations on the same model, so not all laser cannons look the same when they are created.

 

 

 

For a long time I thought you were a troll, turns out you are not. You still think the game is Second Life in Space, which in many cases it is, but guess what, the devs won't allow you to upload anything you want, nor will lthey allow you to have a Rainbow Dash model, nor songs, or w/e weird scattershot of an idea Second Life had. 

 

You don't seem to understand how MMORPGs are made and why they are made the way they do.

 

Why?

 

Because Second Life was not a game.

 

 

 

You got a very warped idea as of what a sandbox game is. You think you can add iron grains in the box. Guess what, you won't be allowed. You'll have to play with the same sand the devs provided for all players.

[Jeronimo]

You logical leaps are way out of this world.

 

 

You are way above any league of irrational I have ever encountered. You count as a new species on your own.

 

 

Did anyone say anything about uploading the TGA files on our own?

 

 

In the game, when you make an object, given a certain boundaries on its stats the player assigned, the weapon has a different cubemap. A powerful laser cannon with a long cooldown has a larger muzzle on the front, while a rapid fire muzzle has a larger barrel on it. Those things can be added by the devs, to assign vrriations on the same model, so not all laser cannons look the same when they are created.

 

 

 

For a long time I thought you were a troll, turns out you are not. You still think the game is Second Life in Space, which in many cases it is, but guess what, the devs won't allow you to upload anything you want, nor will lthey allow you to have a Rainbow Dash model, nor songs, or w/e weird scattershot of an idea Second Life had. 

 

You don't seem to understand how MMORPGs are made and why they are made the way they do.

 

Why?

 

Because Second Life was not a game.

 

 

 

You got a very warped idea as of what a sandbox game is. You think you can add iron grains in the box. Guess what, you won't be allowed. You'll have to play with the same sand the devs provided for all players.

 

[Majestic]

I wonder if items in DU will decay over time, perhaps requiring repairs by using elements (repair machines) that could only be operated by someone with the appropriate skills. 

 

or by someone using a token made by someone with appropriate skills.

[Cornflakes]

i'd say that functional elements (generators, thrusters, weapons, etc) have a limited "maintainance" point count.

this point count goes down naturally over time (with or without use) with a slow rate.

the maintainance bar can be refilled by using some tools and resources.

 

maintainance needs go up with usage of the device (output power x runtime or discrete uses for devices where it applies).

so the older a device and the more it has been used the more its maintainance bar has been depleted.

 

a ship just being stored in a hangar would still need upkeep, albeit less than an actively used ship.

requiring regular attention and resource input.

 

as a bit of mitigation it would be possible to "mothball" individual functionals (or just the whole ship, but thats just mothballing all the functionals of the ship)

this would take some time and resources and reduce the maintainance decay strongly (or even to zero) but deactivate the component untill it gets taken out of mothballing again (again taking resouces and time).

 

this would discourage massive ship stockpiling as every ship thats in a flyable state is taking manpower and resources.

and the ships that arent taking a lot of resources are either not built yet or in a state where they arent readily flyable.

putting some strategy and thinking into what ships you build and keep flyable, not to speak active.

[Velenka]

i'd say that functional elements (generators, thrusters, weapons, etc) have a limited "maintainance" point count.

this point count goes down naturally over time (with or without use) with a slow rate.

the maintainance bar can be refilled by using some tools and resources.

 

maintainance needs go up with usage of the device (output power x runtime or discrete uses for devices where it applies).

so the older a device and the more it has been used the more its maintainance bar has been depleted.

 

a ship just being stored in a hangar would still need upkeep, albeit less than an actively used ship.

requiring regular attention and resource input.

 

as a bit of mitigation it would be possible to "mothball" individual functionals (or just the whole ship, but thats just mothballing all the functionals of the ship)

this would take some time and resources and reduce the maintainance decay strongly (or even to zero) but deactivate the component untill it gets taken out of mothballing again (again taking resouces and time).

 

this would discourage massive ship stockpiling as every ship thats in a flyable state is taking manpower and resources.

and the ships that arent taking a lot of resources are either not built yet or in a state where they arent readily flyable.

putting some strategy and thinking into what ships you build and keep flyable, not to speak active.

 

Perhaps the maintenance bar would tick down, then once it gets to 0, it would "advance" to the next stage (the stages that I was talking about) and the bar would return to full. To push the maintenance bar back up takes some amount of resources per tick of the bar. Higher stages would take more resources per tick. Each stage would affect the device's efficiency (or equivalent). Stage 1 would be 100%, 2 would be 95%, 3 would be 80%, etc.

 

I would have just gone with losing device health over time, but having a separate maintenance bar could allow for a repair skill, giving rise to the engineer occupation. I like it.

 

After too many stages, the device would break. Whether that means losing a lot of "health", or disappearing, or just stop working, I don't know. But it should be severe enough that it gets people's attention, but doesn't put the player completely out of action. I would go for the health option.

 

I agree with your mothball idea. I would say that maintenance ticks over time would be reduced by half, where maintenance ticks over time regularly would already take long periods of time to affect the device. IMO usage of device should be the main cause of regular maintenance in a regularly or occasionally used device.

[Anaximander]

Perhaps the maintenance bar would tick down, then once it gets to 0, it would "advance" to the next stage (the stages that I was talking about) and the bar would return to full. To push the maintenance bar back up takes some amount of resources per tick of the bar. Higher stages would take more resources per tick. Each stage would affect the device's efficiency (or equivalent). Stage 1 would be 100%, 2 would be 95%, 3 would be 80%, etc.

 

I would have just gone with losing device health over time, but having a separate maintenance bar could allow for a repair skill, giving rise to the engineer occupation. I like it.

 

After too many stages, the device would break. Whether that means losing a lot of "health", or disappearing, or just stop working, I don't know. But it should be severe enough that it gets people's attention, but doesn't put the player completely out of action. I would go for the health option.

 

I agree with your mothball idea. I would say that maintenance ticks over time would be reduced by half, where maintenance ticks over time regularly would already take long periods of time to affect the device. IMO usage of device should be the main cause of regular maintenance in a regularly or occasionally used device.

 

That's the item degradation, that gear goes "old" with time, but due to it being used, rather than a countdown timer to obsolescence.

 

 

Let's say you use a weapon 10,000 times, that weapon should require maintenance, next maintenance after that, wil lbe in 5,000 uses andso on.

[Cornflakes]

That's the item degradation, that gear goes "old" with time, but due to it being used, rather than a countdown timer to obsolescence.

 

 

Let's say you use a weapon 10,000 times, that weapon should require maintenance, next maintenance after that, wil lbe in 5,000 uses andso on.

Your version sounds mostly annoying imo.

When i keep my equipment in pristine condition all the time and put in replacement parts continously why should it get worse all the time anyway?

 

When a gun's barrel gets worn out and cleaning and rust removal doesnt cut it anymore i replace the barrel (maintainance! Magic!) and dont throw away the whole gun

[Anaximander]

Your version sounds mostly annoying imo.

When i keep my equipment in pristine condition all the time and put in replacement parts continously why should it get worse all the time anyway?

 

When a gun's barrel gets worn out and cleaning and rust removal doesnt cut it anymore i replace the barrel (maintainance! Magic!) and dont throw away the whole gun

well, because you can repair something so many times before the cost of repairing exceeds its worth.

 

 

If you buy a car today, it can last you up to 16 years, until you end up getting more and more problems and eventually, buy a new one.

 

 

In my opinion, this would drive the market and it would not leave people building personalised gear with a "oh crap my role is pointless" kind of feeling and it would make factories of mass producing of equipment for players relevant.

 

 

If items won't drop (which the devs left up in the air on the DevBlog on Resurrection Nodes), gear degredation will be the only thing incentivising the market for those people who craft player-gear.

[Cornflakes]

well, because you can repair something so many times before the cost of repairing exceeds its worth.

 

and where would that "be more expensive than a new one" come in in my example?

by the time it would be "too old" its 100% new spare parts :shrug:

 

If items won't drop (which the devs left up in the air on the DevBlog on Resurrection Nodes), gear degredation will be the only thing incentivising the market for those people who craft player-gear.

 

"your inventory will be randomly losing most items"

 

 

sounds not very open to me.

[Anaximander]

and where would that "be more expensive than a new one" come in in my example?

by the time it would be "too old" its 100% new spare parts :shrug:

 

 

"your inventory will be randomly losing most items"

 

 

sounds not very open to me.

The "your inventory will be randomly losing most items" may refer to resources gathered or money, not equiped gear. The word equipment loss is not referred anywhere. Equipment degredation is the subject, and/or Elements as Turrets and power rigs in a ship. You know, engineering and maintenance stuff that make people have a role in the game.

 

Even if complete obsolescence of an item through time is not a thing, item degredations should exist in the form of items losing durability. If you dn't repair them, they are broken and can't be repaired anymore. That could make people who build these things, also the ones able to repair them in my opinion. And like a car, if you don't take care of it, it will break beyond any point of meaningful repair.