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CalenLoki

Possible exploits and ways to prevent them

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8 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

Geothermal can still be taken out.... its just another way to boil water..... but bottom line is that tunnels dont collapse in DU as there is no gravity for voxels. So all of this becomes a mute point anyway.

the game is in pre alpha so there are no gravity voxels yet (I can still dream) and as the base is underground without needing power from above ground and if the base is setup corectly the last or second to last thing you will find is the power sorce

 

8 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

Naahhh.... we are in space suits remember?  :D

 

Space suits are not unkillable and would reqire many things to function

 

9 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

Best solution for any type of bunker.

pretty much

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5 hours ago, unown006 said:

the game is in pre alpha so there are no gravity voxels yet (I can still dream) and as the base is underground without needing power from above ground and if the base is setup corectly the last or second to last thing you will find is the power sorce

 

Space suits are not unkillable and would reqire many things to function

 

pretty much

NQ has said on several occasions that there will be no gravity for voxels as it places a huge load on the servers, so dont be expecting gravity based voxels for years in the future, or not at all.

 

Who said the power plant (geothermal or whatever) would be taken out but only a physical/outside attack - it could be done by someone within your org....... spies be everywhere! :o

 

If you can kill a space suit then you have no need for gas.... catch 22 there. Effectively in the game world of DU you cant gas someone. Heck, there are no atmosphere physics either so you dont even need to make space ships air tight :o

 

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5 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

NQ has said on several occasions that there will be no gravity for voxels as it places a huge load on the servers, so dont be expecting gravity based voxels for years in the future, or not at all.

 

Who said the power plant (geothermal or whatever) would be taken out but only a physical/outside attack - it could be done by someone within your org....... spies be everywhere! :o

 

If you can kill a space suit then you have no need for gas.... catch 22 there. Effectively in the game world of DU you cant gas someone. Heck, there are no atmosphere physics either so you dont even need to make space ships air tight :o

 

I was refuring to a outside attack strictly and as of yet suits are a bit vague ...NDA

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13 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

If you can kill a space suit then you have no need for gas.... catch 22 there. Effectively in the game world of DU you cant gas someone. Heck, there are no atmosphere physics either so you dont even need to make space ships air tight

Just kidding lmao, wanna some Nazi Reference.

But who say it cant ? But i think it will be not in game for a very long time or never because it clearly stress the server much more than physic.

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I have seen several posts claiming that "it's not NQ's intention to allow players to build 100% "safe" bases outside the safezone", and then using that claim to argue against underground bases, for instance.

 

That's nonsense.

 

NQ are not opposed to players building impregnable fortresses, but they ARE opposed to providing artificial game mechanics (like enforced arkship safezones) to allow that to be possible.

 

If players can design and fortify skilfully, it's not NQ's job to step-in and say: "Your design is too good, we can't allow you to make it that difficult for others to attack you"...

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Artificial game mechanics like.... TU for example?

 

I have nothing against underground base being really well defended. But if it's protected by magic (that can't be counter-spelled) then something is wrong.

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18 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

Artificial game mechanics like.... TU for example?

 

I have nothing against underground base being really well defended. But if it's protected by magic (that can't be counter-spelled) then something is wrong.

The main thing that is "wrong" in any persistent online game is the fact that it's an imperfect simulation of RL, and therefore needs artificial mechanics to compensate for the fact that each player is not playing the game 24 hours per day.

 

Do you really want a game where the only way to survive is to play as a member of a large org that has 30-40 players active in all major time zones ? Because without "artificial mechanisms", you will need to somehow defend your base when it's attacked at 3:30am or at 2:00pm on a weekday while you're at work, or while you're on summer holidays on the beach somewhere...

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On 4/10/2018 at 6:15 AM, NanoDot said:

I have seen several posts claiming that "it's not NQ's intention to allow players to build 100% "safe" bases outside the safezone", and then using that claim to argue against underground bases, for instance.

 

That's nonsense.

 

NQ are not opposed to players building impregnable fortresses, but they ARE opposed to providing artificial game mechanics (like enforced arkship safezones) to allow that to be possible.

 

If players can design and fortify skilfully, it's not NQ's job to step-in and say: "Your design is too good, we can't allow you to make it that difficult for others to attack you"...

Very true

 

4 hours ago, NanoDot said:

The main thing that is "wrong" in any persistent online game is the fact that it's an imperfect simulation of RL, and therefore needs artificial mechanics to compensate for the fact that each player is not playing the game 24 hours per day.

 

Do you really want a game where the only way to survive is to play as a member of a large org that has 30-40 players active in all major time zones ? Because without "artificial mechanisms", you will need to somehow defend your base when it's attacked at 3:30am or at 2:00pm on a weekday while you're at work, or while you're on summer holidays on the beach somewhere...

Guess what Ark turned into

 

23 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

Artificial game mechanics like.... TU for example?

 

I have nothing against underground base being really well defended. But if it's protected by magic (that can't be counter-spelled) then something is wrong.

Are you suggesting NQ should limit orgs with a player cap?

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5 hours ago, NanoDot said:

Do you really want a game where the only way to survive is to play as a member of a large org that has 30-40 players active in all major time zones ? Because without "artificial mechanisms", you will need to somehow defend your base when it's attacked at 3:30am or at 2:00pm on a weekday while you're at work, or while you're on summer holidays on the beach somewhere...

NQ has already confirmed that there are protection bubbles, like in EVE.
 

As for the underground bases:
One way to solve (or reduce) the problem would be to allow mining on enemy tiles  (enemy = corp that is at war with you). That way you can just dig out the base.

The problem here would be, that you need to build large walls all around...

 

Beeing able to build underground bases is maybe the only way for smaller corps or players to build a base at all. If the base would be above ground, you would really easily be able to spot and attack it.

Yes an underground base is very hard to conquer, however what do you want to do there if you can't get out or in, because it's beeing sieged?

And if it's not beeing sieged: If you want to use it as a hangar, you need a big hangar doors -> Good way in for the enemy, too.

Build a lot of internal turrets for protection -> High energy costs.

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8 hours ago, NanoDot said:

The main thing that is "wrong" in any persistent online game is the fact that it's an imperfect simulation of RL, and therefore needs artificial mechanics to compensate for the fact that each player is not playing the game 24 hours per day.

 

Do you really want a game where the only way to survive is to play as a member of a large org that has 30-40 players active in all major time zones ? Because without "artificial mechanisms", you will need to somehow defend your base when it's attacked at 3:30am or at 2:00pm on a weekday while you're at work, or while you're on summer holidays on the beach somewhere...

Those are two completely different things.

TCU prevents enemy from using nanoformer to attack your base, thus forcing them to use weapons/explosives to break stuff.

FFU (force field unit) makes sure that you have 24-48h warning period to gather friends for proper PvP fight. And hopefully gives you the right to set time of the battle so it's not in the middle of the night/work/school. As @Takao said.

Both are artificial. Both are needed.

The thing I'm against is combining protection from digging (TCU) combined with protection from war-fleet (underground) and ability to totally dictate which way enemy needs to come (kill-box)

I'm mostly concern about ability for small org with limited time to attack another small org in a fair fight. But it applys to large orgs too.

Of course defending side should have some advantage, but not that huge.

4 hours ago, unown006 said:

Are you suggesting NQ should limit orgs with a player cap?

How did you get to that conclusion? I'm really curious.

Or is it another onion joke with many layers?

3 hours ago, Takao said:

As for the underground bases:
One way to solve (or reduce) the problem would be to allow mining on enemy tiles  (enemy = corp that is at war with you). That way you can just dig out the base.

The problem here would be, that you need to build large walls all around...

That's indeed a way. But it would have to be tied to warning period, so defenders (also those of conventional surface base) can react. So not "at war with you" but "in battle with you".

And it would need to be slow. Like 8s/cubic meter. With standard 50+ m3/s any earth/rock defences would just evaporate within first minutes of the battle. So it's something you can't do while under fire.

3 hours ago, Takao said:

Beeing able to build underground bases is maybe the only way for smaller corps or players to build a base at all. If the base would be above ground, you would really easily be able to spot and attack it.

Yes an underground base is very hard to conquer, however what do you want to do there if you can't get out or in, because it's beeing sieged?

And if it's not beeing sieged: If you want to use it as a hangar, you need a big hangar doors -> Good way in for the enemy, too.

Build a lot of internal turrets for protection -> High energy costs.

 

The thing is: if something is "the only way" that is quite obviously not a creative game mechanics.

 

That's why I'm for soft-limits: the deeper your TCU is, the more energy you need to use to power it. 5m of rock above will increase energy cost just slightly, and it's enough to hide your base. Let's say +25% (depth^2). 500m underground would make it real problem to feed TCU. I.e. +250 000% power consumption.

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23 hours ago, Takao said:

NQ has already confirmed that there are protection bubbles, like in EVE.
 

As for the underground bases:
One way to solve (or reduce) the problem would be to allow mining on enemy tiles  (enemy = corp that is at war with you). That way you can just dig out the base.

The problem here would be, that you need to build large walls all around...

 

Beeing able to build underground bases is maybe the only way for smaller corps or players to build a base at all. If the base would be above ground, you would really easily be able to spot and attack it.

Yes an underground base is very hard to conquer, however what do you want to do there if you can't get out or in, because it's beeing sieged?

And if it's not beeing sieged: If you want to use it as a hangar, you need a big hangar doors -> Good way in for the enemy, too.

Build a lot of internal turrets for protection -> High energy costs.

The problem with digging is its op 

 

19 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

Those are two completely different things.

TCU prevents enemy from using nanoformer to attack your base, thus forcing them to use weapons/explosives to break stuff.

FFU (force field unit) makes sure that you have 24-48h warning period to gather friends for proper PvP fight. And hopefully gives you the right to set time of the battle so it's not in the middle of the night/work/school. As @Takao said.

Both are artificial. Both are needed.

The thing I'm against is combining protection from digging (TCU) combined with protection from war-fleet (underground) and ability to totally dictate which way enemy needs to come (kill-box)

I'm mostly concern about ability for small org with limited time to attack another small org in a fair fight. But it applys to large orgs too.

Of course defending side should have some advantage, but not that huge.

How did you get to that conclusion? I'm really curious.

Or is it another onion joke with many layers?

That's indeed a way. But it would have to be tied to warning period, so defenders (also those of conventional surface base) can react. So not "at war with you" but "in battle with you".

And it would need to be slow. Like 8s/cubic meter. With standard 50+ m3/s any earth/rock defences would just evaporate within first minutes of the battle. So it's something you can't do while under fire.

 

The thing is: if something is "the only way" that is quite obviously not a creative game mechanics.

 

That's why I'm for soft-limits: the deeper your TCU is, the more energy you need to use to power it. 5m of rock above will increase energy cost just slightly, and it's enough to hide your base. Let's say +25% (depth^2). 500m underground would make it real problem to feed TCU. I.e. +250 000% power consumption.

I think you are more concerned about it turning into a meta whitch see no problem with as it gives defenders a really big advantage over attackers 

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I just don’t understand why a TU makes it impossible for a person to dig.  It’s probably the single most annoying game mechanic for me personally.

 

There are defenses in place in DU, if you don’t want someone digging on your plot... use them!  

 

Safezones I can understand... 

 

Ah well, it’s still a pretty small gripe haha. At least we can use explosives or something, hopefully.

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12 minutes ago, Hades said:

I just don’t understand why a TU makes it impossible for a person to dig.

1. So people use weapons when attacking enemy base, rather than just digging tunnel straight into storage room.

2. So nobody can erect dirt penises around your base while you're offline. But FFU could do that work too.

 

Although one of the best FPS I've played (original Ace of Spades) had digging and building in combat allowed, and it was great. But only on maps where you couldn't dig tunnel that bypass all the defences, straight into objective.

 

So very slow digging, after FFU timer is over, easily detectable by defenders (no sneak digging) could work.

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Both of those should be prevented by using defensive mechanics.  Whether they be mines, sensors, explosives, etc.  Not some arbitrary “you shalt not dig!”

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11 minutes ago, Hades said:

Both of those should be prevented by using defensive mechanics.  Whether they be mines, sensors, explosives, etc.  Not some arbitrary “you shalt not dig!”

The defensive mechanic is the TCU and its permissions system. Its not stated anywhere but hows this, "If you are not permitted to dig within the TCU's area of influence then it can deactivate your arm based digging equipment via some form of jamming system built into the TCU."

 

Hows that? :)

 

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On 3/22/2018 at 4:00 PM, CalenLoki said:

How can system get exploited? How can it be improved to prevent exploits?

 

That's my usual way of thinking. Especially when I encounter interesting and complex system, like DU.

 

So I have some possible exploits in mind, that probably were discussed, or there is game mechanic I'm not aware of that takes care of them already.

 

I marked possible solutions with colours, based on my subjective opinions:

Green means it would help to fix the problem

Yellow means it wouldn't hurt, but doesn't really change much regarding that exploit. Or is really complicated to implement.

Red breaks more than it fix.

 

1. Building base deep underground with extremely hard to breach defences. Can't use battleships, because it's too deep. Infantry assault is like Soviet unarmed infantry charging German MG lines at Stalingrad. Digging is prohibited by TU.

 

Possible solutions:

A. Forcing some of valuable devices to be placed close to the surface. Obviously all farming, but that doesn't help much. TU seems like the best candidate. Forcing TU shallow enough that battleship cannons can dig seems like best solution for now.

B. Require special gear and resources to survive at large depths. Just like D. it would only fix the problem if those resources can't be stored for longer than length of typical battle. And would hurt hidden bases without TU, that aren't really problematic.

C. Harder to dig deep? It's only initial cost. And also increase durability of underground base, so it can be closer to surface.

D. Solar panels/wind wanes as only renewable energy? That would work only if energy storage were inefficient (energy vaporising over time). Also sieges would be long boring waiting.

E. Some assault system, where TU protection goes down after attackers with there enough time? Same problem as D. and B. - waiting. If digging protection shuts down during assault (as suggested by @gladiator5501) then all surface bases defences become too easy to avoid by tunnelling.

F. Exponentially increased maintenance cost? Damage over time to anything that is deep underground? Would work, but may be taxing on server. And hurts hidden bases.

G. Provided by @ShioriStein: Gas weapons. But that would require liquid physics, which we probably won't get anytime soon. Same apply to flooding such base with water.

H. By @Hades: Make TU protect only close to the surface, leaving depths impossible to protect from digging. Would allow night-mining of enemy resources, without any viable counter.

I. Make TU buble shape, rather than column. A bit far from currently implemented system - but that's probably how it gonna work in space. Would limit the amount of stone you need to blow up to get to nearest TCU. Would lead to nice staged battles, as you'd fight for small parts of enemy base (i.e. only for storage section) It would also make it independent from hex-grid, thus more natural.

J. By  @ShioriStein@Kurock@Felonu: Make digging with explosives/weapons quick and cheap. That makes surface bases completely obsolete (just like E.), but at least fix the underground bases problem.

K. By @Felonu@ostris:Limit dispenser-storage (item link) range. Would at least force underground bases to have entrance for cargo vehicles.

 


2. Automated AFK mining. What if I build and program my hovercraft to go in pattern, jump on, block/macro dig button and leave it for night to dig whole ore vein?

 

Possible solutions:

A. Provided by  @Atmosph3rik: Resources should be in non-solid, odd-shaped veins, so strip mining is extremely inefficient. Sounds like efficient solution without side effects.

B. Limit players inventory capacity. But it's easy to set macro to once per 10 minutes turn around, use dispenser to clear inv, then go back to mining. And it would hurt long mining trips on foot (I don't mind, as IMO you should use some kind of vehicle with you most of the time).

C. Limiting how much character can mine per day. I.e. make mining generate heat, which cools several times slower when not mining. The longer you mine, the slower it goes. I.e. after 2h you mine 2x slower, after 10h you mine 10x slower. That would hurt legit no-life miners, which I wouldn't mind, but some players probably would.

 


3. Provided by @OmfgreenhairNew player's bases boxed with basic materials in safe-zone by troll (who may demand payment for removing the structure)

 

Possible solutions:

A. TU makes it impossible due to size of protected area. But it's not really within reach of new player

B. Static constructs have weaker version of TU (few meters around the construct) built in, making griefer work more time consuming. Especially considered that you need to dig under base as well, to fully block someone.

C. Limit players to single static constructs within ASA per account. That shouldn't harm anyone sane, and would help against ASA clutter. This way troll could troll just one player.

D. Limit usage of very basic resources in constructs (rock, dirt, snow). But that would hinder creativity too much.

E. Provided by @Kurock: Allow players to re-park ships that someone parked too close to your construct, even if it means some clipping. Should fix the problem with dynamic constructs used for boxing.

 


Know the solution? Share.

Think of some other exploit? Share too.

Building a base deep underground would be essentially useless, as the person would have to leave eventually and people can just setup defenses or traps outside to get the person once he gets out. 

 

If AFK mining is made a thing than it could be bad for the general economy as this is potentially easily done by bots. Unpredictable ore veins should be standard.

 

In a safe zone perhaps there should be a way to teleport back to a central place or die to end up in center, and make it so there are roads so that players who stick to roads don't get stuck. 

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2 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

The defensive mechanic is the TCU and its permissions system. Its not stated anywhere but hows this, "If you are not permitted to dig within the TCU's area of influence then it can deactivate your arm based digging equipment via some form of jamming system built into the TCU."

 

Hows that? :)

 

Then that jamming would influence all digging mechanisms, not just foreign.  Not sure why you’re so adverse to building up defenses.

 

I personally want defense mechanics to be unprecedented.  Creating cop outs does negatively impact that goal.

 

Either way, it’s not that big of a gripe.  

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2 minutes ago, Hades said:

Then that jamming would influence all digging mechanisms, not just foreign.  Not sure why you’re so adverse to building up defenses.

 

Either way, it’s not that big of a gripe.  

I'm not against building up defenses at all, if anything I am all for it. ;)

 

I just suggested a lore reason as to why a person cant dig, and as you mentioned it might affect all digging mechanisms - then just change the effect to a targeted beam/wave that disables arm diggers on non authorised intruders.

 

Also I have no idea how big the TCU areas will end up being, but from what I saw in some of the vids they arent huge areas at all, so stopping digging in that small area further reduces the small gripes people may have. (Nothing stopping a person from TCU'ing the land around a taken area and digging a huge 'moat' around it ;)

 

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6 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

I just suggested a lore reason as to why a person cant dig, and as you mentioned it might affect all digging mechanisms - then just change the effect to a targeted beam/wave that disables arm diggers on non authorised intruders.

 

 

Indeed, It could be sort of Specific EMP pulse kinda thingy, not real emp as that doesnt specify what to take out, but a more syfy solution of a pulse  lets call it FIP, Frequenty inhibitor Pulse that only allows electronics of people given rights to be active. Giving it a certain tech also includes the possibility to hack it, here the frequency used in the pulse could be hacked to match yours

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7 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

Indeed, It could be sort of Specific EMP pulse kinda thingy, not real emp as that doesnt specify what to take out, but a more syfy solution of a pulse  lets call it FIP, Frequenty inhibitor Pulse that only allows electronics of people given rights to be active. Giving it a certain tech also includes the possibility to hack it, here the frequency used in the pulse could be hacked to match yours

See, this is something I can support.  Because it’s a defensive mechanic with an effective counter: hacking.

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13 minutes ago, Hades said:

See, this is something I can support.  Because it’s a defensive mechanic with an effective counter: hacking.

There was already a way to counter it.  Attack the base.

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Hacking TCU would just remove it's primary purposes: preventing bypassing all defences with sneaky tunnel. Especially when defenders are off-line.

 

I'll add drill to first post as possible solution:

Relic of the past, before invention of nanoformer.

Cumbersome, slow, loud and energy hungry. Can't compress matter, so you need to carry heavy boxes full of rock out of the tunnel and empty them there.

Dig by brute force, so doesn't work when FFU is active, or inside Ark zone.

But it can't be blocked by TCU.

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