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Semi-diary: Interactions of any/all mechanics and flowing discussion

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51 minutes ago, Sparktacus said:

Right up to that point, I completely agree. Time spent in game should be fun and engaging for the player.

Your adrenaline cant be full all the time.

 

Good time yes, bad time yes, fun time yes and boring time also yes. So you cant never have fun all the time because boring time make you feel what is fun time.

 

Also nobody force you to go explore or on a long time journey.

 

JC have mentioned that the size of universes will depend how far player willing to go.

 

So if you dont want to spend long time boring on a space ship to other system... you just dont have to go.

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1 hour ago, ShioriStein said:

Good time yes, bad time yes, fun time yes and boring time also yes. So you cant never have fun all the time because boring time make you feel what is fun time.

I absolutely, fundamentally disagree.

 

Games are meant to be fun to play. I do not spend my free time playing them, to be bored.

 

If there are significant gameplay loops that are little more than watching a screen, that is going to significantly detract from the experience.

 

Now of course, there are lots of different gameplay loops. Mining, building, fighting etc, you dont have to like all of them. But players should always have something to do in order to keep them engaged and entertained by the game.

 

If thats not the case, youll find a lot of players just going and playing other games instead of DU, which would be a shame. This game has a huge amount of promise, but its going to rely on having a solid community of players im order to thrive.

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Travel to exploring new world ( this take most time if you really want to do it) you have to account that there will be boring time no ? You have many character you can switch to do other stuff ?

I agree the game have to be fun and there will be many job and aspect but what i say here you say travel is boring. But is it boring with pirate who are waiting to see any prey around ? If the router too short ( not jump other system ) then the pirate player will be sad because it too short for them to do any "emergent" thing but the player who are traveling will feel happy because the router is short so they can do other thing. So what should we do here ? Fun of the pirate or the travel ?

So in the end i really dont know what you want about interplanetary travel.

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12 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

Travel to exploring new world ( this take most time if you really want to do it) you have to account that there will be boring time no ? You have many character you can switch to do other stuff ?

I agree the game have to be fun and there will be many job and aspect but what i say here you say travel is boring. But is it boring with pirate who are waiting to see any prey around ? If the router too short ( not jump other system ) then the pirate player will be sad because it too short for them to do any "emergent" thing but the player who are traveling will feel happy because the router is short so they can do other thing. So what should we do here ? Fun of the pirate or the travel ?

So in the end i really dont know what you want about interplanetary travel.

This is why im so conflicted about multiple characters. It does resolve the problem of downtime for travel, but it just dosent seem right somehow.

 

As I say, still trying to work out why myself.

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1 hour ago, Sparktacus said:

it just dosent seem right somehow.

If you think about VR as playing ONE character in a virtual world, then yes, it might look like the issue of distance is being downplayed by simply being able to hop into another body somewhere else. However, lots of players have absolutely no problems with that idea, even if developers even try and forbid it in their universe. This gives them an advantage that puts genuinely one-char players in a long-term bad mood. I find the '3-char family' idea pretty neat and it makes lots of things easier for the devs and better for the game at the same time.

It does mean, however, that going afk will often actually be a case of swapping chars, so NQ needs to look more closely at the semi-logout nature that 2/3 chars will always be under also when the player is actually playing even. Those chars should neither be extra safe nor extra endangered when out in pvp areas in my opinion, so it's a tricky issue.

What I do hope is that the three chars per account can be identified as from the same account, such as having a main name and nickname tag or so.

 

@CalenLoki on #2 Skills, I partly disagree. Before your a. and b. "[skills] serve only two meaningful purposes: 

a. Because they are earned over time, they tie players to their characters. Thus preventing creating new one after loosing reputation (by griefing, scamming, ect.)

b. They force you to specialise"

we have that they fundamentally enable access to areas and efficiencies and prevent new players from automatically taking part in these. Having 24/7 skilling functions makes it worse that players can pay for multiple accounts and thus be in a far more automatic p2w situation than actually having to be online and only being able to skill up char one at a time through real play (and not botting a multi-account either).

For me a big question is how far the skilling trees will go in terms of being a veteran and what effects this will have. The force to specialise, as you put it, will depend on what is achieveable in, say, 1 year of having an account. In one case where you can build research labs and gain science points similar in effect to skills, people rushed to research, got what they wanted and then kept gaining and gaining points to absurd levels after a while such that their ships could do warp-factor whatever if they so wanted.

 

I also dislike the idea that younger players will never be able to effectively catch up in some games, but I realise you can't have it both ways; either skills effectively max out after a while or they don't...

 

 

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28 minutes ago, dualism said:

I also dislike the idea that younger players will never be able to effectively catch up in some games, but I realise you can't have it both ways; either skills effectively max out after a while or they don't...

New Player can act in the aspect which skill cant help ... labor slave barter, economist, seller ... which didnt depend on skill tree. If they smart they can easy manage to catch up with old player with your money bank ( quanta ).

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'

Hopping into a ship and going AFK because the distance is long? The market for bounty hunters and resurrection nodes will go through the roof.

 

There will be multiple characters. It's a fact. NQ can fight it, players can hate it, but in the end, what will be is what will be. Dual-boxing is attractive for many reasons: efficiency, income, emergent game-play. As far as you pay for your character and you don't bot, NQ seems okay with multiboxing: 

 

 

On 16/02/2016 at 8:05 PM, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

The team hasn't made the final decision on this subject yet.

But I will bring this topic to the Devs' attention :)

 

Sidenote: if we succeed in avoiding to have activies usually boring and nearly automated in MMO (like mining, for example ;)) not boring in Dual Universe, this should naturally limit Multiboxing.

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

 

If I can sustain 10 characters legally (subbing or DACing, no botting, not cheatcodes, no hacking), make the accounts and use them efficiently, I see no need not to. Sooner or later, some fellow will find one of my characters at a bad point in time and will do what he would to any other player, because each character is an entity in Dual Universe. I don't really see the reason for placing any limits other than the ones NQ has enforced or is planning to enforce. 

 

Cheers.

'

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5 hours ago, dualism said:

@CalenLoki on #2 Skills, I partly disagree. Before your a. and b. "[skills] serve only two meaningful purposes: 

a. Because they are earned over time, they tie players to their characters. Thus preventing creating new one after loosing reputation (by griefing, scamming, ect.)

b. They force you to specialise"

we have that they fundamentally enable access to areas and efficiencies and prevent new players from automatically taking part in these. Having 24/7 skilling functions makes it worse that players can pay for multiple accounts and thus be in a far more automatic p2w situation than actually having to be online and only being able to skill up char one at a time through real play (and not botting a multi-account either).

For me a big question is how far the skilling trees will go in terms of being a veteran and what effects this will have. The force to specialise, as you put it, will depend on what is achieveable in, say, 1 year of having an account. In one case where you can build research labs and gain science points similar in effect to skills, people rushed to research, got what they wanted and then kept gaining and gaining points to absurd levels after a while such that their ships could do warp-factor whatever if they so wanted.

 

I also dislike the idea that younger players will never be able to effectively catch up in some games, but I realise you can't have it both ways; either skills effectively max out after a while or they don't...

The fact that they lock part of the game behind character leveling is IMO drawback. But because of point a. - fighting trolls it's kind of unavoidable.

I just hope that maxing out will be possible after quite short time: i.e. after three months further leveling increase character stats in hardly noticable way. 95% of character efficiency after that time should be based player skill and ability to get resources, and only 5% on how long your character is active. That should fix the problem with young players (except those just-newborns)

5 hours ago, dualism said:

What I do hope is that the three chars per account can be identified as from the same account, such as having a main name and nickname tag or so.

I hope that they don't. Just so you can i.e. be member of two orgs that are at war with each other... so many possibilities. Don't lock such functionality behind additional paywall (second account).

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2 hours ago, Vyz Ejstu said:

Hopping into a ship and going AFK because the distance is long? The market for bounty hunters and resurrection nodes will go through the roof.

In my example there are fewer consequences of dying and you don't lose your ship, but it highlights the issue of boredom. DU space won't be much of a happy place if people have to stay at the keyboard because death is a lot more costly and they thus don't want to risk it. I also expect there will be far more multi-player ships in DU which can take on passengers, but again, it is not a great solution to pay your fare and *wave goodbye* to your char for x amount of time while it is boringly in transit.

 

On the number of chars: given it is single shard, I do think that the popping in and out issues will be bigger the more characters one person actually has control over. I believe having 3 chars per account can make many things far easier for the devs, as mentioned, but it has drawbacks for them too in deciding whether to ragdoll, cocoon, vanish chars etc in various environments.

 

1 hour ago, CalenLoki said:

I hope that they don't [link chars by name]. Just so you can i.e. be member of two orgs that are at war with each other... so many possibilities.

Ok, on reflection that is indeed a freedom of reputations which each char you have should have on its own! :)

 

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16 minutes ago, dualism said:

I do think that the popping in and out

There is whole forum topic dedicated to discuss logging out (or switching chars in this case). And it's possible to create system that prevent abuses related to character popping.

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15 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

I absolutely, fundamentally disagree.

 

Games are meant to be fun to play. I do not spend my free time playing them, to be bored.

 

If there are significant gameplay loops that are little more than watching a screen, that is going to significantly detract from the experience.

 

Now of course, there are lots of different gameplay loops. Mining, building, fighting etc, you dont have to like all of them. But players should always have something to do in order to keep them engaged and entertained by the game.

 

If thats not the case, youll find a lot of players just going and playing other games instead of DU, which would be a shame. This game has a huge amount of promise, but its going to rely on having a solid community of players im order to thrive.

There is nothing to stop people from building games within DU itself. We have paint-ball in real life, why not paint-ball arena's in DU (or similar/other forms of games). That way people who are just after combat (cause all other forms of game play are 'boring') can get their pew pew fix and the rest of us can get on with building worlds ;)

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6 hours ago, dualism said:

In my example there are fewer consequences of dying and you don't lose your ship, but it highlights the issue of boredom. DU space won't be much of a happy place if people have to stay at the keyboard because death is a lot more costly and they thus don't want to risk it. I also expect there will be far more multi-player ships in DU which can take on passengers, but again, it is not a great solution to pay your fare and *wave goodbye* to your char for x amount of time while it is boringly in transit.

 

Ok, on reflection that is indeed a freedom of reputations which each char you have should have on its own! :)

 

'

Hello, dualism.  

 

In response to the quoted part of your reply: Aphelia welcomes you as one of the first Noveans to step out of the Arkship. Things will be hard for you as a pioneer, as they surely are for many other pioneers you see around you. Don't worry, though: the same way others before you have made the hard learned experiences available to you, you will be making the journey easier for others through your experience. Think of it as the early ages of man's exploration beyond the shores of the Old World. Travel across the Atlantic took weeks with sails, and would have taken many more months for earlier explorers who knew only the boat and the oar. In the nineteenth century, transport across the Atlantic became even faster than sails with the arrival of steam power. In the 21st century, you could cross the Atlantic twice within the same day through jet powered air planes. 

 

What the early explorers would have given to reach the New Land in an Airbus A380, eh? But, with each generation, something new was learned. Something new was added to the pool of human knowledge. Imagine what the Dark Ages would have been like with resurrection nodes, or the Black Plague would have been like with modern medicine and transport. 

 

That's the same way it is going to be in Dual Universe. Remember: star gates and FTL are features not yet implemented. Someone only has to make the long journey once for short journeys to be established. Alternatively, you could launch the probes and wait for weeks - once. After that, you build the stargate or warp anchor point and you make travelling through space very, very short. 

 

In the long run, travelling through space the long way will be a niche activity for certain reasons: looking for a safe spot, exploring, scouting, etc. For us pioneers, we are doing it the hard way, because that's what pioneers do: till the ground, beat down the path and pave the road. 

 

 

Cheers.

'

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7 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

There is nothing to stop people from building games within DU itself. We have paint-ball in real life, why not paint-ball arena's in DU (or similar/other forms of games). That way people who are just after combat (cause all other forms of game play are 'boring') can get their pew pew fix and the rest of us can get on with building worlds ;)

Providing the engine supports that, sure, not a bad idea.

 

Personally, id like to be able to build/edit smaller ships while aboard a larger moving ship, as I want to be spending most of my time shipbuilding.

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Hi there, recent posts contain good examples of how good or bad the backdrop mechanics might be.

7 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

There is nothing to stop people from building games within DU itself. We have paint-ball in real life, why not paint-ball arena's in DU (or similar/other forms of games).

Nice idea, yes, but if the game involves death mechanics, then as it is now you'd have problems with your stuff and where you ressurect. You'd either have to design the paint-ball to work without in-game death, or NQ would have to design in an extra level of 'death for fun=simple ressurect neary' mode. Either could work, but there needs to be 'a way to do it'...

 

5 hours ago, Vyz Ejstu said:

In the long run, travelling through space the long way will be a niche activity for certain reasons:

I understand your point, but again about the mechanics, how long will short cuts still end up being in total? Using warp gates will surely make the situation similar to having airports - very useful for the very long distance part, but you still have the trips at each end to and from the airports.

I'm not saying that any one thing will be a game-breaker, but even if NQ wants to give us the freedom to get emergent systems built by the players themselves, the ground mechanics still need to be thought out and provided with boredom-aversion options.

 

edit: yes @Sparktacus, that's the sort of thing I mean, being able to use transit times in a fun and game-progressing way, but still being able to respond to a red-alert, or whatever. :)

 

Edited by dualism
short additional

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18 minutes ago, Sparktacus said:

Providing the engine supports that, sure, not a bad idea.

 

Personally, id like to be able to build/edit smaller ships while aboard a larger moving ship, as I want to be spending most of my time shipbuilding.

NQ showed a mini game (pong from memory) running on an in game terminal that was created with LUA. So at the very least simple screen games can be made/played within DU.

 

As far as building in a moving construct my guess is that you would have to attach it to your current moving ship. Dont attach engines nor cockpit as they might fireup messing up current ship. Then pnce landing cut and move the mini build out of main ship, attach dynamic core, engines and cockpit then it may work.... im just guessing though.

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1 hour ago, CoreVamore said:

NQ showed a mini game (pong from memory) running on an in game terminal that was created with LUA. So at the very least simple screen games can be made/played within DU.

 

As far as building in a moving construct my guess is that you would have to attach it to your current moving ship. Dont attach engines nor cockpit as they might fireup messing up current ship. Then pnce landing cut and move the mini build out of main ship, attach dynamic core, engines and cockpit then it may work.... im just guessing though.

AFAIK you can't cut one construct into two. But you can build small ship as part of larger ship, then copy that part into shape memory, then paste it over new dynamic core.

 

But I really hope that there is some built-in anchoring mechanism. Like landing gear that glue one construct into another (SE style). Or anchor-beam, that holds core of smaller construct at constant distance (FtD style). Without that, building any kind of carrier would be impossible.

2 hours ago, dualism said:

Nice idea, yes, but if the game involves death mechanics, then as it is now you'd have problems with your stuff and where you ressurect. You'd either have to design the paint-ball to work without in-game death, or NQ would have to design in an extra level of 'death for fun=simple ressurect neary' mode. Either could work, but there needs to be 'a way to do it'...

I don't see any problems here. All the mechanics are already confirmed to be in game:

Before you go into arena, you leave all the stuff in secured chest and check-in into respawn node. Both provided by arena owner. When you die, you loose only weapon (also provided by arena owner, and collected by him after match is over), spawn nearby and collect your things from the chest.

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On 24.3.2018 at 12:03 PM, CalenLoki said:

Before you go into arena, you leave all the stuff in secured chest and check-in into respawn node. Both provided by arena owner.

Yes ok. It has been said that the nodes will be pretty expensive, but I guess wherever one is built with fairly open access to it there will be a service for secured chests as well. It would be a bit like a sports club changing rooms/ bank vault where you leave your stuff, and one business element could be a paintball arena alongside.

The discussion slowly evolved via ways of not being bored on a long ship journey, though, but it doesn't look like there will be holodeck paintball on a ship as things stand, surely? Other games and activities would seem doableish, however.

 

I think some way of doing construct design while in transit would be really great if possible, like some kind of virtual teleport to some otherwise unused volume of the shard as a virtual environment within DU as it were, but which would not have the problems of you actually being on board a ship officially. Destruction of the 'holodeck' would result in death at the original location, or so, should it come down to that. I don't see why it couldn't be done - and would even be a way of having things like virtual conferences as well.... :)

 

____

***[attempt at pulling across wrongly placed comment from Friday to my own thread without it being thrown up as a new post to the activity area. Sorry mods if this doesn't work as 'quietly' as I hope and sorry also for initial wrong posting in that ark pub area!]

 

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/11247-the-outpost-called-zebra/&do=findComment&comment=83222

 

"I have seen a number of comments by people who have pointed out aspects of Dual Universe that they consider boring.  Whether is it the length of time space travel takes, the need to mine resources manually or the limit on the weapons one person can operate, they all stress that unless these sources of boredom are eliminated, no one will want to play the game. "

 

I have mentioned travel times a bit recently, yes, but not said that the sources of boredom should be eliminated, nor taken the position that nobody will want to play. I believe that certain paths should involve investment, also of time, but this does not mean that the time spent spending time needs to be boring almost by very definition. I find it crazy that people engaged in a game end up regularly pointing their spaceship in a certain direction and going afk for 30 mins to 'avoid' the boring bit - and that's just in a 'smallish universe' where you may even be killed because you are afk, but you take the risk anyway because even taking the trash out is more 'interesting'! I did not suggest necessarily shortening the journey time, but want the devs to consider what can be usefully done in game at the same time. It could be a mini-game holodeck, crafting, permanent dangers in space which require active piloting similar to driving a car or so, doing ship upgrades, or even switching to secondary chars in game.

 

"If you are tempted to request changing some feature of Dual Universe to make it less boring, ask yourself what you want to do in the game." 

I don't want to be wasting time needlessly on repetitive stuff if I don't feel like it. Different people will be bored by different things, though, so it's going to be tricky to decide whether good immersion means it takes me 5 mins or secs to dock my ship and get to whatever shop, or my quarters, or wherever else. Generally, if you offer people short cuts, they will take them, however...

Edited Friday at 04:32 PM by dualism
typos

Edited by dualism
trying to clear up some of my mess elsewhere - or rather make it easier to delete without it being lost if mods want to...

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https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/13407-docking-mechanics/

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/13325-question-on-losing-inventory-upon-death/

 

I see a bit of a link between these two topics of docking mechanics and inventory volumes (=potential loss on death).

Also related, of course, is the volume and weight of cargo.

 

As already stated, there is the problem of when tasks become tedious and unenjoyable. Thus, a base criterion is how many trips must be made by what means to be able to fill your small, large or huge ship, and where is that ship 'docked'? The goods might include already crafted items (less volume and weight but more value than raw materials).

My assumption is that you will be able to transfer from personal inventory to a small, personal vehicle simply by being present on it, but to transfer from construct to construct or to a bigger ship, you will need to 'dock' them.

 

Mixed in with this is the personal property problem. I assume I can transfer from personal inventory to a 'group-owned' (somebody else's) vehicle/ship. If I die, then I lose ownership of all the material stuff that my character has in inventory, right (with exceptions of whatever, DACs, quanta...), but not what is cargo somewhere else? What happens to a vehicle I may have nearby? Can it be easily stolen/destroyed if not 'docked' to a bigger, safer construct?

In other words, what are further consequences of death on my stuff? Do I have to hand over control of my things in a cargo bay so they can be removed, or will they block up a ship's capacity if I am somewhere else?

 

Also, on docking mechanics, if there is some kind of automatic transfer system, the speed of transfers may affect what gets transferred to where in base battles. In an RL evacuation you are ordered NOT to take possessions with you, but in DU, might you want to quickly share out stock if you are about to lose control, and have everybody 'run' in different directions?

 

What do people think? Is it an important balancing area for NQ?

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AFAIK Ownership of goods that are not in your inventory depends on RDMS set to specific container. And you don't loose any tags or rights when you die. Only if someone takes over the construct (blow up the core) the RDMS get's removed, and everyone can access container.

So ship owner can probably just steal your items, as he has full rights to access all containers and edit RDMS. Thus only thing that protects your goods is the agreement between you and him. Either by in-game contract system, or some player-created mechanics.

In case of small constructs - probably to steal them someone need to blow up the core, then replace it with his own. And it doesn't matter if they are docked or not - only if they are physically protected from being attacked.

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On 2/20/2018 at 11:55 AM, dualism said:

Hi, although the planet will be pretty big as such, there won't be anything better than low value resources on it apparently. We will have to be able to get off the planet with the lowest craftable spaceships, otherwise we would be stuck, but there then comes the question of where higher quality stuff will be made. I imagine it has to be where better ores/mats are available.
#3 I'm left a little wondering what cargo volumes will be like and whether ores being refined or products being made will translate into the volumes of those plus waste of some type or another.
The volume of Alioth may even increase over time come to think of it .. ;)

Any word on a debate on skills?
#4 It seems to me that this will be a pretty big factor in the game if death keeps knocking people back but skills will grow and enable new activities/levels of action.
#5 Any word on whether skills will be extractable and tradeable?

"Hi, although the planet will be pretty big as such, there won't be anything better than low value resources on it apparently. We will have to be able to get off the planet with the lowest craftable spaceships, otherwise we would be stuck, but there then comes the question of where higher quality stuff will be made. I imagine it has to be where better ores/mats are available. " From my knowledge only the arkship zone and STU zones will be rs restricted not the entire starting planet

 

On 2/21/2018 at 3:35 AM, Lethys said:

selling skills is just Pay2Win. Plain and simple. You instantly kill the advantage of an old character.

 

Gaining skills is very easy at first (as said by JC in various interviews) - the basics are fast to learn (couple of hours) but mastery needs time. So no, you don't have to start a new character. So yeah, if someone wants to have an edge in PVP - he better keep skilling those skills instead of mining -> SPECIALIZE

 

there are no quests in DU because there are no NPCs

 

depends on how the skill system works - and on flight mechanics. Many won't like them at all - many will love them. But as always only some will be on top

"there are no quests in DU because there are no NPCs" isnt NQ planning to jump start the econemy with npc"s?

 

On 2/21/2018 at 5:18 AM, Zamarus said:

I rather not see people paying a bunch of money to up every skill in the game to high level in no time. Everyone who spent weeks on skilling will feel shit and its P2W. Just because there could be a market for it doesn't mean there should be one. 

 

People are already able to use DACs to get resources, which is expensive but if you add skills you unlock the ability for people with thick pockets to get an advantage on every level if they want to. Reason I'm fine with DACs is that it enables people to play for free by being good at the game and it's markets. It comes with a drawback which i don't want to see expanded in abusability. 

Very well said

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4 minutes ago, Lethys said:

no. BOTS. those are NOT NPCs

 bot an autonomous program on a network (especially the Internet) that can interact with computer systems or users, especially one designed to respond or behave like a player in an adventure game.

 

NPC A non-player character (NPC) is a video game character that is controlled by the game's artificial intelligence (AI) rather than by a gamer. Non-player characters serve a number of purposes in video games, including: As plot device: NPCs can be used to advance the storyline.

 

these definitions alighn so are you sure ?

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17 minutes ago, unown006 said:

 bot an autonomous program on a network (especially the Internet) that can interact with computer systems or users, especially one designed to respond or behave like a player in an adventure game.

 

NPC A non-player character (NPC) is a video game character that is controlled by the game's artificial intelligence (AI) rather than by a gamer. Non-player characters serve a number of purposes in video games, including: As plot device: NPCs can be used to advance the storyline.

 

these definitions alighn so are you sure ?

if you think that discord bots are NPCs then sure - can call them NPCs too.... doesn't make any sense but who am I to judge

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1 hour ago, unown006 said:

 bot an autonomous program on a network (especially the Internet) that can interact with computer systems or users, especially one designed to respond or behave like a player in an adventure game.

 

NPC A non-player character (NPC) is a video game character that is controlled by the game's artificial intelligence (AI) rather than by a gamer. Non-player characters serve a number of purposes in video games, including: As plot device: NPCs can be used to advance the storyline.

 

these definitions alighn so are you sure ?

NPC's have an avatar of some sort in a 3D environment, like DU, however there will not be any like that in DU. The only artificial characters will be those seeding the market and they, are bots. i.e. No more than a name on an buy/sell order.

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NPC give chat chit, quest, ...
BOT none. It have only one job is exchange your ore into quanta and yet to give you other ore if you give them quanta. Nothing more. So in the end it isnt control by AI or anything, it just follow what it have been program to do.

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