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[DevBlog Feedback] Our thoughts on Territory Protection Mechanics

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21 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

Agree on this, Best thing NQ can do is build exactly what they promote, a space civilization building game that has all the facets of civilization and noone can do it all but needs a team to get ahead.

That said, any alt that is a griever will have a less hard time to get the materials probably, but then it will be possible to link it to the main character more easily. We have been thinking how to counter this and for now just shooting everyone not registered as friendly seems to be the safest option, also free materials :D just need to design a biiig scoop for all those shot griever ships :P  

You are going to run out of bullets REALLY REALLY QUICKLY ? and also that encourages the strategy of building ships that can take a hit and drain your ammos before the main fleet attacks :P

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On 11/13/2018 at 12:49 PM, Sophia ❤ Foxy said:

You could obviously avoid violence easily by making deals with the organized syndicates but it's the lone wolf griefers that's the key of total chaos, let's see how NQ is going to tackle this problem as space griefing is hard to define and hard to prosecute

There is no griefing.... i really dislike that term. There is the attacker and the person/group being attacked. If you are atracked you either try to run away, stand your ground, or fight back. This has been the topic of multiple threads in the past. People need to realise that game like DU and Eve are not nurseries, not padded rooms to keep you safe. These games are for the hunter and the hunted. The gangs and the armies. The warrior and the builder. All compete in their own way. Heck you could even have a commune org that could, if run properly, be a dominant force for good -or evil (that really depends on what end of the barrel you are looking at.

 

So rejoice! Forget the nanny carma system (as good as it may seem in the end it can, and will be, circumvented.). Embrace the unknown. That enemy might end up heing your best friend. That loyal org member who you thought was your friend, might steal all your orgs assetts. The sky may darken as a hundred invader landing platforms move through the sky heading directly for you. Revel in the accolades for the best ship/building/toilet/etc in DU.

 

Its all possible.

 

Its all exciting.

 

Its all terrifying.

 

Just like life.....

 

This is DU  :)

 

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2 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

There is no griefing.... i really dislike that term. There is the attacker and the person/group being attacked. If you are atracked you either try to run away, stand your ground, or fight back. This has been the topic of multiple threads in the past. People need to realise that game like DU and Eve are not nurseries, not padded rooms to keep you safe. These games are for the hunter and the hunted. The gangs and the armies. The warrior and the builder. All compete in their own way. Heck you could even have a commune org that could, if run properly, be a dominant force for good -or evil (that really depends on what end of the barrel you are looking at.

 

So rejoice! Forget the nanny carma system (as good as it may seem in the end it can, and will be, circumvented.). Embrace the unknown. That enemy might end up heing your best friend. That loyal org member who you thought was your friend, might steal all your orgs assetts. The sky may darken as a hundred invader landing platforms move through the sky heading directly for you. Revel in the accolades for the best ship/building/toilet/etc in DU.

 

Its all possible.

 

Its all exciting.

 

Its all terrifying.

 

Just like life.....

 

This is DU  :)

 

Wait until someone claim all 6 hex around your city and no one in your city can get out

And wait until an org camps your base all day long, kill you again and again everytime they see you until you quit

And wait until an org camps the starter planet and kills everyone that tries to get out

Wait until an org finds your temporary resurrection node in a pvp zone, kills everything except that and force you to repeatably spawn and gets killed

the list goes on...

 

People need to realize that without a rule, a game fails quickly and soon you will have to find your own friends to kill because no one's left to play with you.

People who calls those anti-griefing system "nanny system", are the ones who wants grief everyone, but cries so hard like a baby when they get griefed, or if they have to do any kind of pve grinding to get to a state when they can properly pvp, I usually call them the "pvp kids"

 

If you are those teabaggers who called the enemy "noobs, ggez" after a matchup then I don't have anything to say. This is DU , some are here to play, have fun and enjoy the game, and some are just here to commit crimes they can't do in real life and they are the first I will block if such feature is implemented ;)

 

 

If you want to cause chaos, sure, you can certainly do that! The "Nanny System" isn't going to stop you from doing that, but you won't 100% get away with every destruction you do, like hit and run ;)

 

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2 hours ago, Sophia ❤ Foxy said:

Wait until someone claim all 6 hex around your city and no one in your city can get out

And wait until an org camps your base all day long, kill you again and again everytime they see you until you quit

And wait until an org camps the starter planet and kills everyone that tries to get out

Wait until an org finds your temporary resurrection node in a pvp zone, kills everything except that and force you to repeatably spawn and gets killed

the list goes on...

Happend 14 times to be exact. Not in Du ofc. Planned carefully, phoned friends, got everyone coordinated and then broke free. Then killed them (or tried to in some circimstances) anderen came back with even more reinforcements to claim our territory again. Got evicted 5 times, always rebuilt too.

 

It's all about creative solutions to problems at hand. A karmasystem won't help in any of those cases, ppl can (and ppl sometimes will) do it.

 

Plus such things aren't easy to do in Du. TCUs are expensive anderen possibly need time to be Set up, you need fuel, electricity and maybe other forms of consumables to even just sit there and wait for them defenders to show up. Ammo is also a thing, other games allow you to store ridiculous amounts. So it's not an easy feat to rapecage someone in Du and i simply can't see it happen with planets

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15 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Happend 14 times to be exact. Not in Du ofc. Planned carefully, phoned friends, got everyone coordinated and then broke free. Then killed them (or tried to in some circimstances) anderen came back with even more reinforcements to claim our territory again. Got evicted 5 times, always rebuilt too.

 

Plus such things aren't easy to do in Du. TCUs are expensive anderen possibly need time to be Set up, you need fuel, electricity and maybe other forms of consumables to even just sit there and wait for them defenders to show up. Ammo is also a thing, other games allow you to store ridiculous amounts. So it's not an easy feat to rapecage someone in Du and i simply can't see it happen with planets

Well, not everyone would have time and energy to deal with things like this, you are definitely one of the lucky ones that can group up quickly and stop the griefing, most, especially casual players who's simply just here to play and enjoy, would just complain and leave and it wouldn't take more than a few dozens for NQ to start swinging ban hammers, and that's not exactly a solution either (see how quickly Conan Exile's population drops when griefers abuse the bugs and made everyone quit the game), especially not a P2P game

 

Quote

It's all about creative solutions to problems at hand. A karmasystem won't help in any of those cases, ppl can (and ppl sometimes will) do it.

Again, I'm not saying a Karma system would completely solve this, but it could have a chance rather than letting them freely roam and attack until last person left on server. In BD you lose the most precious thing if you are neg karma and dies (drop enchantment level) and we certainly could have something similar, something that makes people fear to go full neg and plan their attack carefully

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1 minute ago, Sophia ❤ Foxy said:

Well, not everyone would have time and energy to deal with things like this, you are definitely one of the lucky ones that can group up quickly and stop the griefing, most, especially casual players who's simply just here to play and enjoy, would just complain and leave and it wouldn't take more than a few dozens for NQ to start swinging ban hammers, and that's not exactly a solution either (see how quickly Conan Exile's population drops when griefers abuse the bugs and made everyone quit the game)

 

Again, I'm not saying a Karma system would completely solve this, but it could have a chance rather than letting them freely roam and attack until last person left on server. In BD you lose the most precious thing if you are neg karma and dies (drop enchantment level) and we certainly could have something similar, something that makes people fear to go full neg and plan their attack carefully

A fully fledged invasion or siege hast to be planned accordingly. You don't do such a thing in your own, nor do you do it lightly. You always argue for the "Lone wolf griefers", so this shouldn't be a problem for you. That can and will still happen with a declaration of war. Those Guys will simply declare everyone as target and that's it.

 

Casuals can play the game in safezones. That's why they're there. If you want to achieve things outside then you better bei able to defend your stuff 24/7

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So much argument ... 
I think we need a flexible system not a complicate system. And what NQ have said is "Everything is up to player", so the more complicate system (like karma system ) , the more loop hole it can be ... Well that just my thought.

About lone ship attack. I think that is "risk and reward" isnt it ? You take the risk for go alone to decrease some expense cost when go with other player in a caravan or protection fee isnt it ?!

 

Also if i'm not wrong, NQ have said something about a reputation system ... Maybe it kinda look like Karma system ?

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1 hour ago, Lethys said:

Casuals can play the game in safezones. That's why they're there. If you want to achieve things outside then you better bei able to defend your stuff 24/7

Really? I have never seen a game that requires 24/7 attentions, or maybe have they all failed hilariously? I think NQ is wise enough not to attempt that :D because hardcore players in the end, are minorities

 

You would be dreaming to believe that they designed NQ so people need to play it 24/7

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Sophia ❤ Foxy said:

Really? I have never seen a game that requires 24/7 attentions, or maybe have they all failed hilariously? I think NQ is wise enough not to attempt that :D because hardcore players in the end, are minorities

 

You would be dreaming to believe that they designed NQ so people need to play it 24/7

 

 

Who said it needs to be you who plays 24/7? That's what orgs are there for. And timezones. See how it's eine in Eve for 10+ years

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1 hour ago, ShioriStein said:

So much argument ... 
I think we need a flexible system not a complicate system. And what NQ have said is "Everything is up to player", so the more complicate system (like karma system ) , the more loop hole it can be ... Well that just my thought.

About lone ship attack. I think that is "risk and reward" isnt it ? You take the risk for go alone to decrease some expense cost when go with other player in a caravan or protection fee isnt it ?!

 

Also if i'm not wrong, NQ have said something about a reputation system ... Maybe it kinda look like Karma system ?

Haha well, argument is good right now so we don’t have to go through the “Dual Universe sparks controversy upon update 1.34” post by some big gaming media

 

I agree that a flexible system is for the better but we NEED a system one way or another, otherwise it would be total chaos, and it’s not those chaos that pvpers love. It would be ironic that orgs has their own rules yet there are absolutely none in the universe - basically setting orgs to fail and people to go rogue.

 

About the lone ship attack, let me elaborate my thought a little bit on why karma system should be influential in such attacks:

 

Say you are roaming in space and you saw a ship flying past you, there are three scenarios:

1 - the ship is harmless, alone and small, looks like someone’s trying to get to another planet from the starter

2 - the ship looks like some kind of cargo ship, could have valuable asset in it

3 - the ship seems very high level and dangerous, pretend to be peaceful and let go

 

Without a proper “reputation” or say karma system in place, there is no reason why you shouldn’t go for both 1 and 2 situations, and it wouldn’t stop their ship from attacking you (situation 3),

but with a proper system, you would think twice before you want to attack on situation 1, since it might not be worth the points to get nothing, and it might go the same way as the target ship.

 

Nothing’s wrong without a system, as some may say, but to NQ it would be a bad case since the victim in situation 1 is likely to quit and leave, since they literally lost everything to someone’s personal satisfaction, and that’s 1 less subscription for them :D 

 

where did you know about the reputation system thingy? :D I would totally love to check it out :P 

 

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7 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Who said it needs to be you who plays 24/7? That's what orgs are there for. And timezones. See how it's eine in Eve for 10+ years

Weeeeelll, you would have to get big enough to get international players around the globe! There might even be some rich guys paying others to play at a specific time, who knows? :D

But in a game like this, you either choose to concentrate on one planet or you would be having a lot of trouble to manage, especially against night raids and night griefs that can easily be done from, say, my time zones ;) 

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On 11/13/2018 at 11:51 AM, Aaron Cain said:

That said, any alt that is a griever will have a less hard time to get the materials probably, but then it will be possible to link it to the main character more easily. We have been thinking how to counter this and for now just shooting everyone not registered as friendly seems to be the safest option, also free materials :D just need to design a biiig scoop for all those shot griever ships :P  

Aaron, you're the man. :D ?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sophia ❤ Foxy said:

Weeeeelll, you would have to get big enough to get international players around the globe! There might even be some rich guys paying others to play at a specific time, who knows? :D

But in a game like this, you either choose to concentrate on one planet or you would be having a lot of trouble to manage, especially against night raids and night griefs that can easily be done from, say, my time zones ;) 

That's the whole point of it. Attack in their weakest timezone to reinforce the shield. That's why single language orgs like all german ones are good in their TZ, but suck in every other. And yes, If you want safety outside the safezones you want a big org backing you to actually Provider for that safety. If you're a lone wolf, Go ahead and outside. But be aware that you might be attacked when you're not online. 

 

Ppl just need to know that If they leave the safezones, they can be killed. Karma doesn't change that. And If they rly understand that, then they won't leave. Because they got killed. Once.....

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Just now, Sophia ❤ Foxy said:

Wait until someone claim all 6 hex around your city and no one in your city can get out

And wait until an org camps your base all day long, kill you again and again everytime they see you until you quit

And wait until an org camps the starter planet and kills everyone that tries to get out

Wait until an org finds your temporary resurrection node in a pvp zone, kills everything except that and force you to repeatably spawn and gets killed

the list goes on...

 

People need to realize that without a rule, a game fails quickly and soon you will have to find your own friends to kill because no one's left to play with you.

People who calls those anti-griefing system "nanny system", are the ones who wants grief everyone, but cries so hard like a baby when they get griefed, or if they have to do any kind of pve grinding to get to a state when they can properly pvp, I usually call them the "pvp kids"

 

If you are those teabaggers who called the enemy "noobs, ggez" after a matchup then I don't have anything to say. This is DU , some are here to play, have fun and enjoy the game, and some are just here to commit crimes they can't do in real life and they are the first I will block if such feature is implemented ;)

 

 

If you want to cause chaos, sure, you can certainly do that! The "Nanny System" isn't going to stop you from doing that, but you won't 100% get away with every destruction you do, like hit and run ;)

 

Some people here assume I am a griefer when in fact I am a builder.

 

Nanny systems can, and do, get worked around, and in the end can give a false sense of security. "The system said he was good then he killed me - or someone did...."

 

I used to play Eve. I discovered that it's a tough game, not for the faint hearted. I wont get into super detail, but in it are three levels of space. High Security Space, Low Security Space, and Null Security Space. In High Security space there are space cops that come to help you out if you are attacked by any player. Players are marked by a system similar to what you are suggesting. So you would think that High Security space is the safest part of Eve. On the contrary its the most random and dangerous. I know this because I went to what some in Eve consider as the dangerous parts of Eve, Null Security Space. There I found organisations that protected and self policed their own patches of Null Sec. These orgs spread intel on who/what was in what systems - basically what was coming. Knowing this players could react in appropriate ways. Builders would get safe. Warriors would get into their attack ships to defend their turf etc.. In these situations corps marked other players/corps as either friend, neutrals, or enemies to be Killed On Sight (KOS). This way you knew who your friends were, for the most part anyway. (Always be a tad paranoid - it will help you survive)

 

The bottom line is that even though having no cops, and where a nanny system became irrelevant, it was the safest part of Eve. I ended up viewing High Security space as the lawless one, the most random one, the one that could get you killed without provocation. In Null Security space you had a much better idea of friend, or foe.

 

And....

 

The upside was that all the big battles, all the major movement of players, resources, bases, etc happened in Null Sec space. Yes it was, in theory, the most dangerous space, it was also the most fun, the most engaging, the most challenging.

 

Yes, battle fleets could show up, and due to their corps size, field ship after ship after ship to blow players and resources to the wind. And sometimes they did it for weeks and months. This type of thing could be done for by them for training, to lower your solar systems ability to fight back, sometimes for just shits n giggles. It wasnt really viewed as griefing (just annoying lol). You still learn how to live in such a situation. You adapt. You get better. And as a builder sometimes, just sometimes, you learn how to fight back.

 

This can challenge you, Definitely! This can be a pain in the ass - most assuredly. This can bring you to tears (I never cried - honestly ;) ).....

 

But in the end its lots of fun, long time engagement, not just a game you play for a few weeks/months then drop. Thats one reason why Eve has survived as long as it has.

 

So yea, I think the safe zones/sanctuary worlds that NQ is building into DU will be enough to keep people who want to be safe, safe. ('Criminals' have a right to be safe too. - keep in mind one persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.... ) Then there is excitement for those willing to take the risk, and get the rewards, by going outside of those zones. Knowing full well they may be attacked, but, with enough friends as backup, they will also know that if attacked they are perfectly free to fight back. Again, and again and again if need be. And yea, that can be scary. But there is nothing like charging into battle knowing you will likely die, lose your hard won ship that you probably built,

 

but....

 

your heart is racing, time slows, palms moisten, and at that point you realise "Shit - this is hell fun!"  :D

 

Cheers

 

CoreVamore

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@CoreVamore

 

Well said... or written, rather.

 

tenor.gif

 

 

 

In mobile right now where typing longer texts is a PITA, so I elaborate later, but by mindset I'd rather see myself on the risk taker crowd since that is largely my history.

 

And to those who prefer it safer: the other side of the coin (risk, PvP, etc) isn't bad, it spices things up even if it may not be your preference. Even you might likely profit from it by picking a branch or business that focused on logistics or makes things that are blown up or used up in wars.

 

I think DU will offer a fair compromise in that regard and in terms of bridging worlds and (sub-)communities.

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@CoreVamore

I think your statement just summarises the point of player driven games. 

For me, even though I am sort of a pacifist, I still want to be in survival games because of the element of risk. I think it is human nature to compete, to become better than their former selves (which is what gave birth to survival games imo). And the beauty of Dual Universe is that the skills and abilities are not restricted by classes or skill caps, but by each player's own learning capacity, which can be limitless in theory. You might be a bad fighter, but you can become one, and there is a sense of satisfaction in knowing that . 

 

Also, in games where players are restricted by classes or skill caps, they are forced to cooperate with others in order to survive, even though they may disagree or hate those people due to personalities, moralities, etc. Life is Feudal: MMO is an example that I can testify for. People have restricted skills and they are forced to join together for survival, and eventually the mechanics of the game brought out the worst of people. The toxicity made so many good people leave the game.

 

DU, on the other hand, doesn't restrict you in that sense. People will find those who are on the same wavelength to cooperate naturally. Sure, toxic and domineering people would still be there. But in my opinion, they are of a minority, and the majority will naturally band together. 

Where there's people, there's politics. And eventually, people will find a solution and a place where they belong. 

I do believe we need a creative mode, which should be an eventual part of the game. 

At least that's how I see it. Pitch in your opinion. God knows I can be so wrong sometimes. 

Edited by JackolusGamer
Forgot to type a line

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Invasion

 

The initial invasion of every plan is well thought out and coordinated.  Knowing that the enemy may have a Protective Device casting a force-field over their Construct(s) is part of that plan.  However, it is not known how reinforced said "bubble" is.  I propose the following meta:

  1. If the base being attacked has a Large Core, then the owner should have or be required to have, a Large shield.  Of course this item should be Tiered as such 
         Core:  XS-Tier I shield   S-Tier II shield  M-Tier III shield  L-Tier IV shield
  2. The attacking force would be required to "probe" that shield to determine the level of weaponry required to overcome the shield and it's health/capacity  
    Attacking Ship's Core Theory = the size of the dynamic constructs core dictates the weaponry it is capable of carrying.  (an XS vessel should NOT be capable of overcoming any Base, sticking to the "It takes a village" concept)
                                                  XS: No weaponry capable of penetrating a Dynamic force-field
                                                  S:  >Tier-I Weapon or proper caliber to penetrate an XS Static Cores Shield
                                                  M:  >Tier II Weapon or proper caliber Pulse/Laser to penetrate a S Static Cores Shield
                                                  L:  >Tier II Weapon or proper caliber Laser/Rail/Artillery to penetrate a M or larger static construct
     

Capture The Flag

  1. Once the shield is diminished to 0, the timer should not be server-static so we know when to attack.  There should be an unknown element of pending-battle inherent in the process itself.  If everyone knows what's coming because the force-field has been penetrated, then the element of surprise and inevitable doom is removed from the game.  In other words, it should be based on a formula of Construct Size+Fuel available, and possibly another variable determined by the size of the Organization/activity.  Super-Large organizations may have more resources, thereby making it more difficult to be overcome by a simple timer.   
  2. I disagree with the Email Alert system - It is the Leadership/Organization's responsibility to manage their faction members and their land.  That's the organizational meta and it should be just that.  If you choose to live in PVP, then you expect to get hit - GUARD it or loose it.  Login and defend your hex or live to build another day!   It's not personal, it's business. 
          Note: Auto-Turret Defenses -  Will they be firing through the force-field before it is taken down?  Can the invading force be held off by my defenses?  Is that going to be possible?
  3. Once a base has been over-ran, then the opposing force takes possession by raw power and is able to place their Land Claim Device similar to a "Capture the Flag" moment.  If nobody is defending the flag, or I haven't been attacked within a certain time frame, and the owning faction ISN'T actively protecting their base core, then I should be able to place my LCD down and PWN!
     

Weaponry Meta

 

As stated above, no XS Dynamic Construct should have the ability to overcome/snipe, or otherwise overrun a Static Construct that contains a force-field.  With the advent of all of these Space Survival games, the meta for PVP is always disputed by PVE/PVP players alike.  The playfield has an inherent danger that should frighten the crap out of you and your teammates should you chose to venture away from Home.  It isn't supposed to be easy, it isn't supposed to be a cake-walk.  The weaponry that dynamic vessels can carry should not be equal across the board.  There needs to be a Tier'd weapons system that allows for progression based on superior tactics thereby awarded as such.  If you want protection, go play No Man's Sky.

 

           Example:  In a game I play now, once you level up, you acquire all the weapons in the game for your dynamic vessel.  All you need is a bit of ore and you build each one - BAM!  You are now the most powerful ship on the playfield.  But can you use it properly?  My example above, allows for an element of responsibility in the attacking faction to either bring all your big guns and risk the loss of said weaponry should you be attacked enroute, or do some scouting and be cautious with your dooms-day device.   My "Attacking Ship's Core Theory" allows for a steeper than normal method of acquiring said dooms-day device.  This is in-line with NQ's crawl/walk/run method that they have imposed. 

 

These dynamic core limitations and weaponry scaling provide a proverbial speed-bump my Example above. 
                                              XS: No weaponry capable of penetrating a Static Constructs force-field
                                              S:  >Tier-I Weapon or proper caliber to penetrate an XS Static Cores Shield
                                              M:  >Tier II Weapon or proper caliber Pulse/Laser to penetrate a S Static Cores Shield
                                              L:  >Tier II Weapon or proper caliber Laser/Rail/Artillery to penetrate a M or larger static construct

 

Final Variable  @NQ_Stargazer

 

Maybe it would be a better meta to force the factions to seek out partial technology to create their dooms-day device?  Maybe, not all of the components in the Tier III Shield Buster can be created from the ores in the ground.  Maybe, you need to work a little more before you can take out a Large Static Construct.   Maybe! 

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Given the flexibility of voxel building and Lua scripting, settlement defense based upon a single shield concept seems overly simplistic.  Defences should be reactive and in depth. The more creative, skilled, and resource intensive the reactive defense the tougher it should be to take down. Defences should have traps and kill fields in addition to a shield.

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Interesting Devblog,

 

Perhaps the 'Force Field Unit' could be called a 'Territory Defence Grid',  'Territory Protection System' or  'Territory Protection Unit'

 

 

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