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Fleet Command Structure & Communications - Diagram


Wilks Checkov

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This is just to give a rough idea how complicated - large scale battles will be - especially when you start using larger more complex ships with crews. 

 

Hopefully this diagram will give you a rough idea how to organize yourselves around. Fleet_Command_Structure.png

 

Hopefully it will benefit you all in the long run. 

 

Anyway - have any questions on structure - feel free to ask. Will do my best to reply soon as possible. 

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I posted something asking for opinions on the fleet command and structuring of general groups and whether it would be based on a system that was close to EvE where it was Fleet Based or like, you know, other MMO groups, anyway, that got no bites but it is interesting to see the thoughts of another person and the style of percieved fleet command that we think we'll need from what we've heard.

This is a good structure to be remembering though as most fights may end up with this sort of thing, at least large scale ones, as for small skirmishes I assume that you would just remove the secondary command ships and just have a direct squad of smaller vessels running around. More a 'gang' of ships. 
This graph looks to be easily modified as well, so. 
It works multiple ways to however people want to use it. 

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Exactly why I did it, so it could be used and changed around for others. - the sub command ships are for larger groups - you do not want a single admiral having to analyze a entire battlefield of 40-50 ships - it would be too much for one single person. The sub admirals job is only to handle a smaller group - they still have as much power as the admiral and can make decisions for their battle group but ultimately still answer to the admiral them self. 

 

 

 

 

Give me a few and I will assemble one that will probably be used far earlier in game. Especially since we are dealing with smaller ships. 

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Well, this is true, depending on the size of the vessels anyway.
You don't want to have to micromanage someones gunners and such beyond your own ship, that's just painful. With some form of main leadership -- Squad leader relationship in the structure allows for groups to run autonomously within their restrictions, i.e, their orders. But it also allows that leader to see if the battle is going south and pull out extremely swiftly instead of waiting on the main commanders decision. 
Sometimes that's crucial. 

That's fine, just post another version whenever. 

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I think part of the reason WilksCheckov made this topic is because of a discussion we were all having on discord.

 

I was thinking today about what large scale fleet combat would look like, and how command structures would have to be setup simply because of the logistics involved in being in charge of a large capital ship with potentially hundreds of people on it running around doing things. 

 

With the game being first-person focused (or what is referred to as to it as FPS mode in the devblog) because of the desire for supporting VR like Vive and Oculus Rift, it's going to drastically change the dynamics of how we organize and fight in large battles. 

 

There's going to be the added complexity of possibly not knowing what ships do when they're seen on the battlefield because of the endless variety of constructions people can make.

 

So while there will be some similarities between Eve, I think that the reasons for having a command structure like the one posted will be because combat will be more lifelike. 

 

I was imagining what being a fleet commander would look like in a large battle in Dual Universe, and I thought of people reporting intel and how that would get filtered up the chain of command so that an admiral could "play chess" with the ships under their control on the field.

 

Being a captain on a ship will involve not only having a grasp on your crew to make sure they are doing their best to keep the ship operational. It will also involve coordinating with the higher ups to get your orders and to get your crew to work together to carry out those orders. An Admiral will only be as good as his weakest crew on the field. 

 

Of course major battles with thousands of players, if they even ever happen, will take years to build to and require thousands of man hours of work to build up a sufficiently sized military, just like in Eve Online. 

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Here is the smaller scale version of it - I imagine this is what the early engagements may appear like: 

 

Fighter_Command_Structure.png

 

Yeah, this is what I was thinking.

 

I think part of the reason WilksCheckov made this topic is because of a discussion we were all having on discord.

 

I was thinking today about what large scale fleet combat would look like, and how command structures would have to be setup simply because of the logistics involved in being in charge of a large capital ship with potentially hundreds of people on it running around doing things. 

 

With the game being first-person focused (or what is referred to as to it as FPS mode in the devblog) because of the desire for supporting VR like Vive and Oculus Rift, it's going to drastically change the dynamics of how we organize and fight in large battles. 

 

There's going to be the added complexity of possibly not knowing what ships do when they're seen on the battlefield because of the endless variety of constructions people can make.

 

So while there will be some similarities between Eve, I think that the reasons for having a command structure like the one posted will be because combat will be more lifelike. 

 

I was imagining what being a fleet commander would look like in a large battle in Dual Universe, and I thought of people reporting intel and how that would get filtered up the chain of command so that an admiral could "play chess" with the ships under their control on the field.

 

Being a captain on a ship will involve not only having a grasp on your crew to make sure they are doing their best to keep the ship operational. It will also involve coordinating with the higher ups to get your orders and to get your crew to work together to carry out those orders. An Admiral will only be as good as his weakest crew on the field. 

 

Of course major battles with thousands of players, if they even ever happen, will take years to build to and require thousands of man hours of work to build up a sufficiently sized military, just like in Eve Online. 

Fair enough on the reasoning.

 

The idea of the commander essentially playing chess is going to be true, both in the sky and once we get ground combat going. It will be interesting to see how commanders adapt to new fleets and compositions that get brought to the field. Though the command structure will be much the same, regardless. 

 

A captain is probably going to have one of the tougher jobs considering the amount of information he has to absorb and then coordinate within a small-ish crew (depending on ship size). Then pass back up. While the admirals and command will have a large amount of info flowing in, they only have to pass down decisions they have made. So it's a little less. But i guess it will all be interesting once we see the first set of these battles take place in the future. 

 

As you said, we need the build the arsenals first and this will take months if not a year or more. Those battles will be started the same way as EvE though I presume, a trapped freighter or something will spark and the entire area will catch on fire. Hahaha.

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You still do not exactly get it - its quite limited / streamlined.

 

 

A Commander - they only have to receive and pass on info for their ship, nothing else. They only have to receive fire orders from a Admiral - and then tell the Gunners to fire at that specific target, and then if necessary to pass needed information back to the admiral only. They will not be communicating with other commanders on the field.

 

The primary purpose of the Commanders is to be battlefield aware - just for their specific ship, to adapt to their environment. They do not fly - run guns or other - their only purpose is to lead their specific ship. 

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Oh no, I understand it. 

I just used the wrong lingo. 
I'm sorry, that is a little awkward.

I understand that information only flows through the Admirals -- Commanders and the commanders are battle aware to keep their ship alive and running (just to be simple).
I understand the structure.

 

 

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I like the diagram, and I was think that if there's a way to share information in real time in game, then the positioning of the vice admirals would make scene. But if for some reason there is not then the flagship would have all the Admirals and sort of be above the battle scanning things down below, although now that I am typing this it seems silly to put that big of a target on one ship, which means that the price of spaceship glass is going way up in my mind, seeing as we know nothing about sensors yet.

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  • 10 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 18.8.2016 at 7:52 AM, WilksCheckov said:

Here is the smaller scale version of it - I imagine this is what the early engagements may appear like: 

 

Fighter_Command_Structure.png

 

Interesting structures, but you might want to consider roles of different ships more. Like in this picture. Would (1) light frigate lead fighters (possible if you assign fighters to support frigates for carrier for example) or (2) would fighter forces be coordinated by the carrier that launches then or (3) would squadrons of fighters be separate units commanded by fleet commander/admiral/vice admiral/someone  like they would (groups of) larger ships. Much also depends on size of the fleet. 

 

There could be light carrier with escort frigates that assigns handful of fighters to each frigate and those would work and an unit with the frigate with frigate commander leading them based on the orders of fleet commander on the carrier. Frigate brings slightly heavier firepower on enemy ship while fighters protect it's flanks or support the attack. Or you could have frigate/destroyer/cruiser with 3 corvettes/frigates as escort for small 4 ship strike group following mostly the above structure. The central ship could focus on some heavy forward weapons while smaller ones are covered in turrets for defense. 

 

The first image could have large carrier flagship with admiral that has two large battleships with it and smaller cruisers/destroyers/frigates with those that fly in formation with the battleships which have vice admiral to lead the formation. In that case I would still ad few smaller ships directly under the carrier to be it's escort and include fighter/bomber squadrons in the chain of command. 

 

I would also be nice to know more about different engine types and what can be used in how small ship. Travel between systems might be made stargate based but having fighters that can traverse across systems quickly would increase tactical options for carrier. Why take your expensive fleet into combat when you can park behind some moon with carriers and escorts and launch attack waves of relatively cheaper faster to build strike ships. When they get destroyed re-spawn players on carriers (if possible to make it so) and send second wave while enemy is still wondering where the first came from (could also move the carriers between/during the waves.) Or you could just have cheapest possible fighters to throw out in waves to defend the fleet and short distance. Bit like difference between rebel alliance and galactic empire fighters. 

 

I throw around lot of military ship classes here. We obliviously don't know what people are going to build in game or what is sensible to build with game mechanics, but the main goal is to reflect on relative size, power and role of possible ships in fleets. 

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Before I point out the flaws in assumptions being made here, let me first say that I really like this idea, and really want it to happen.

 

That's being said... I think you're all forgetting how hard this is going to be to implement, and that means it probably won't happen. 

 

First of all, communications channels like this are complex and time consuming. Getting information from the crew to their captain, to the admiral will take time, and would really require a coms officer to do effectively, especially for an admiral controlling a dozen ships. In all but the most massive alliances, that's a huge waste of manpower that could otherwise be in more ships. Furthermore, it will take a lot of time to pass this info back up and down the chain, during which time things can happen. We don't see this structure in EVE because people would die, thus changing the situation, before that process could happen. For this structure to work in DU, the combat would have to be slow enough to make it viable, which might be too slow for most people's desires. People often forget that in real life naval battles take hours and hours.

 

Also, it's going to require a lot of skill to do. Not only will you need a competent admiral, you'll need competent captains of every ship, who are also mini-fleet commanders of their own. This is a problem because most people can't or don't want to be fleet commanders, and even if they do they're pretty terrible. Look at EVE again. Even major alliances of 2000 people might only have 5 or 6 decent fleet commanders (and only 1 competent Strategic level FC, if they're lucky), and FCing in DU won't be completely different from EVE no matter what happens. The likelihood of having enough competent command staff to make this work is pretty low, just because most people won't want the responsibility, they just want to blow stuff up. 

 

And that's only two of the problems I see. That's not even mentioning issue of efficiency and cost. So, even though I want this to be a thing, I don't think it will be a thing because of all the obstacles in the way.

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32 minutes ago, Vorengard said:

Before I point out the flaws in assumptions being made here, let me first say that I really like this idea, and really want it to happen.

 

That's being said... I think you're all forgetting how hard this is going to be to implement, and that means it probably won't happen. 

 

First of all, communications channels like this are complex and time consuming. Getting information from the crew to their captain, to the admiral will take time, and would really require a coms officer to do effectively, especially for an admiral controlling a dozen ships. In all but the most massive alliances, that's a huge waste of manpower that could otherwise be in more ships. Furthermore, it will take a lot of time to pass this info back up and down the chain, during which time things can happen. We don't see this structure in EVE because people would die, thus changing the situation, before that process could happen. For this structure to work in DU, the combat would have to be slow enough to make it viable, which might be too slow for most people's desires. People often forget that in real life naval battles take hours and hours.

 

Also, it's going to require a lot of skill to do. Not only will you need a competent admiral, you'll need competent captains of every ship, who are also mini-fleet commanders of their own. This is a problem because most people can't or don't want to be fleet commanders, and even if they do they're pretty terrible. Look at EVE again. Even major alliances of 2000 people might only have 5 or 6 decent fleet commanders (and only 1 competent Strategic level FC, if they're lucky), and FCing in DU won't be completely different from EVE no matter what happens. The likelihood of having enough competent command staff to make this work is pretty low, just because most people won't want the responsibility, they just want to blow stuff up. 

 

And that's only two of the problems I see. That's not even mentioning issue of efficiency and cost. So, even though I want this to be a thing, I don't think it will be a thing because of all the obstacles in the way.

 

Aye. Most probably up until a certain point, of numbers and sizes of ships, PvP will prolly be a simple matter of calling out targets to focus-fire. Grand Fleet Battles are cool though, if ever logical.

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On ‎18‎-‎8‎-‎2016 at 6:52 AM, WilksCheckov said:

Here is the smaller scale version of it - I imagine this is what the early engagements may appear like: 

 

Fighter_Command_Structure.png

hmmmmm.... I'd fit a navigator in there. Then the commander can focus fully on his sole task of commanding.

 

Are things clear on how minimaps and radar works in the game? Depending on how the game provides information about these things, a navigator could be extremely crucial in any space flight endeavor.

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When I originally devised it, all of this is theoretical, the layouts will change with each group, fleet, and corporation. Every person has their personal way of running things. . . and for something like this to work - yes it may be difficult, but when you have access to "several of those GOOD" fleet commanders it becomes significantly easier. So we plan to try and follow the tried and true approach to fleet organization - and change as needed.

 

The design itself is meant to be configurable though - just to provide a rough layout of how things could be. Anyone is welcome to change it around to suit their needs. 

 

As for those who are unwilling to believe in the multicrew system... too bad... A lot of us are looking forward to it. 

 

 

Should you have any questions or want to request further information on this topic feel free to contact me - and I will do my best to answer any structure comments you may have. 

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18 minutes ago, 0something0 said:

What is the difference between flight crew and engineers 

Flight Crew are essentially the dedicated pilots of the ship... they receive direct voice commands from the captain as to maneuvers. Engineers are more autonomous, there purpose is to repair, maintain, fix anything that breaks during normal operation and in combat. They do not require, normally, direct communication with the captain short of being told to focus on a specific area fist, should the need arise. 

 

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16 hours ago, WilksCheckov said:

Flight Crew are essentially the dedicated pilots of the ship... they receive direct voice commands from the captain as to maneuvers. Engineers are more autonomous, there purpose is to repair, maintain, fix anything that breaks during normal operation and in combat. They do not require, normally, direct communication with the captain short of being told to focus on a specific area fist, should the need arise. 

 

 

Assuming piloting coincides with getting that nice, overlooking, third-person-view of the ship; I'm guessing it will be quite natural for the commanding individual, for any size of vessel; to pilot it her/himself.

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6 hours ago, Thokan said:

 

Assuming piloting coincides with getting that nice, overlooking, third-person-view of the ship; I'm guessing it will be quite natural for the commanding individual, for any size of vessel; to pilot it her/himself.

I disagree. The captain's job is to command the whole ship, and that means concentrating fully on commanding the ship instead of being bogged down with moving it.

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1 hour ago, 0something0 said:

I disagree. The captain's job is to command the whole ship, and that means concentrating fully on commanding the ship instead of being bogged down with moving it.


Do you really think commanding most ships is going to be something that requires a single person's whole attention? I would hope that this would be the case on the very largest ships (we still have no idea), but you really need to think about the consequences of doing that. Say you have 5 ships, each with a crew of 5 (captain, pilot, engineer, gunner x 2). If you remove the captain from this situation, you have enough crew for an extra ship, thus increasing your fleet power by 20%!

 

Do you really think having a captain for each ship is worth sacrificing 20% of your fleets combat power? Instead you can train the people on the ship how to act on their own, or put a single fleet commander in charge of calling targets, and have the crews responsible for following those orders. Furthermore, a captain relaying orders is much slower than having even a decently trained crew follow orders on their own. Speaking of training, where do you think you're going to get 5 competent captains? As a long time EVE player, I can tell you finding even 2 people willing to step up and FC a small gang in an alliance of 500 people is virtually impossible, never mind 5. And most organizations won't have 500 people! Not to mention the fact that it would be insane to sacrifice additional bodies in combat ships just so you can have a person stand around shouting orders to a crew that could otherwise be trained to follow simple instructions on their own.

 

Simply put, while cool sounding (because who doesn't want to be the captain of a space ship in epic battle?) this really isn't going to happen. At least not until months (if not years) after release when major capital ships with crews of 20+ become a thing. The logistics and realities of playing a video game simply don't support it. 

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11 minutes ago, Vorengard said:


Do you really think commanding most ships is going to be something that requires a single person's whole attention? I would hope that this would be the case on the very largest ships (we still have no idea), but you really need to think about the consequences of doing that. Say you have 5 ships, each with a crew of 5 (captain, pilot, engineer, gunner x 2). If you remove the captain from this situation, you have enough crew for an extra ship, thus increasing your fleet power by 20%!

 

Do you really think having a captain for each ship is worth sacrificing 20% of your fleets combat power? Instead you can train the people on the ship how to act on their own, or put a single fleet commander in charge of calling targets, and have the crews responsible for following those orders. Furthermore, a captain relaying orders is much slower than having even a decently trained crew follow orders on their own. Speaking of training, where do you think you're going to get 5 competent captains? As a long time EVE player, I can tell you finding even 2 people willing to step up and FC a small gang in an alliance of 500 people is virtually impossible, never mind 5. And most organizations won't have 500 people! Not to mention the fact that it would be insane to sacrifice additional bodies in combat ships just so you can have a person stand around shouting orders to a crew that could otherwise be trained to follow simple instructions on their own.

 

Simply put, while cool sounding (because who doesn't want to be the captain of a space ship in epic battle?) this really isn't going to happen. At least not until months (if not years) after release when major capital ships with crews of 20+ become a thing. The logistics and realities of playing a video game simply don't support it. 

 

Have to agree. With the way players are these days, min maxing will be more than just stats for DU. If there is a way to make ships flyable by only person, whether it makes sense or not, will happen. 

 

Fortunately, players who want to play with a setup similar to Wilks diagram is certainly feasible. Effective? Who knows. 

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20 hours ago, 0something0 said:

I disagree. The captain's job is to command the whole ship, and that means concentrating fully on commanding the ship instead of being bogged down with moving it.

 

"No, no! The other left!" :D

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