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As Regards Scripted Weapons


Murmandamus

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So, aside from (server-side?) automated defense systems, there is also the related hot topic of scripted weapons (not necessarily the same thing). I can see arguments from all sides, and I'm not taking sides here. I don't know what would be best. But here's an idea that occured to me for discussion, to see if maybe something comes out of it.

 

Let's say for the moment that there could be valid uses for scripted weapons. But the main objections are gameplay balance and teamwork incentive. Now what if there were items or elements that could create sensor ghosts to confuse scripted weapons? So for example there is only one real target, but the script will see multiple targets and be unable to distinguish the real from the fake ones.

 

Another option is to have items or elements that could scramble a script's targeting system, making it miss way more often, or reducing the range at which it can lock on for example.

 

This means that scripting for weapons can have a potential part to play, but that their advantage can be countered significantly by investing in the proper equipment. Both these mechanisms could include some form of tech/skill level. For example low-level sensor ghost projectors might only create one or two sensor ghosts, while high level ones create many, or last longer, or whatever.

 

A smart script might be able to determine which are the fake targets by analyzing certain stats or behaviors (for example maybe the fake targets don't take damage or whatever, i.e. there's always a loophole). But that would take time and guesswork, during which the automated system would still be compromised. Also, by the time the script catches on, it can be countered again by using an additional projector unit to create new sensor ghosts. Or maybe all you wanted was to buy yourself enough time to escape. And look what we have now: Emergent game play, strategic planning, scalable countermeasures, etc.

 

Discuss?

 

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I think this starts to get too complicated; we're talking here about countermeasures to countermeasures to countermeasures. There is going to have to be some form of automation at some point; I don't assume that every single gun barrel will need it's own player. However, with the lock-and-fire weapon system that NQ is going for, I think that a ship using double team is kind of counter to that; there are other ways to provide limitations.

 

With regular old school aim and fire, having there be multiple targets would make sense because the guns have to point at those targets and shoot. But with lock-and-fire, DUs system, a gun can be "aimed" at a target and technically still miss. I just personally feel that they don't mix.

 

And thanks for not only sharing an idea, but actually looking around the forums before posting one! :)

 

On the topic of multiple ghost targets, it's all I can think of:

latest?cb=20150412215726

(also @ShinyMagnemite looks it's your dad :P)

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On 14.11.2017 at 9:34 PM, Nanoman said:

So, aside from (server-side?) automated defense systems, there is also the related hot topic of scripted weapons (not necessarily the same thing). I can see arguments from all sides, and I'm not taking sides here. I don't know what would be best. But here's an idea that occured to me for discussion, to see if maybe something comes out of it.

 

Let's say for the moment that there could be valid uses for scripted weapons. But the main objections are gameplay balance and teamwork incentive. Now what if there were items or elements that could create sensor ghosts to confuse scripted weapons? So for example there is only one real target, but the script will see multiple targets and be unable to distinguish the real from the fake ones.

 

Another option is to have items or elements that could scramble a script's targeting system, making it miss way more often, or reducing the range at which it can lock on for example.

 

This means that scripting for weapons can have a potential part to play, but that their advantage can be countered significantly by investing in the proper equipment. Both these mechanisms could include some form of tech/skill level. For example low-level sensor ghost projectors might only create one or two sensor ghosts, while high level ones create many, or last longer, or whatever.

 

A smart script might be able to determine which are the fake targets by analyzing certain stats or behaviors (for example maybe the fake targets don't take damage or whatever, i.e. there's always a loophole). But that would take time and guesswork, during which the automated system would still be compromised. Also, by the time the script catches on, it can be countered again by using an additional projector unit to create new sensor ghosts. Or maybe all you wanted was to buy yourself enough time to escape. And look what we have now: Emergent game play, strategic planning, scalable countermeasures, etc.

 

Discuss?

 

Then every well rounded ship will just use those countermeasures so that IF it encounters a solo player in some ship they can kill him. If everyone uses it then there's no point in thinking of a way to introduce automated turrets in the first place

 

Again I quote NQ on this one:

 

Hi everyone,

 

We can't give you details yet about how turrets will work as it refers to game mechanics still currently being designed.

 

However, what we can tell you is what the team is aiming for:

- Giving the ability to players to build some automated defense for their base.

- Avoiding to give the ability to players to have a huge multicrew ship entirely manageable by one player. This would defeat the purpose of multiplayer crew ships, and would end up destroying the team play we are aiming for. People wanting to play solo will be able to do many things, but not everything: piloting alone a multiplayer crew ship with maximum efficiency will be one of the things they won't be able to do. Team play must be rewarded by some exclusive activities and piloting a multiplayer crew ship is the biggest one. Without strong incentive, team play just won't happen.

- Regarding AI, it depends what players are expecting: if it's to help in some basic industrial tasks, or basic automated defense, yes, there will be some - limited - possibilities. However, no AI self-replicating robots, no AI able to replace completely a player in a multiplayer crew ship.

 

We know this isn't much or new info for now, and we will try to update the topic as soon as possible.

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

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1 minute ago, Nanoman said:

As I understand it, they are still debating whether or not scripts should be able to fire weapons at all, for example. But they're not simply saying no to it.

They only consider base defenses to maybe run the script serverside with severe downgrades like less dmg, less accuracy,...

This whole automated defense thing from NQ ONLY concerns static cores and respective defenses - NO dynamic cores (ships) as the quote proves

 

So while it is possible and useful to defend your base with offline protection (turrets) which defend you against solo players/small groups but don't stand a chance against a full force attack, it's certainly no good idea on a ship.

Plus there are way more implications to this.

 

What about stargates?

What about space stations?

 

Balancing wise it's just a pain in the ass to allow people to put automated turrets on stargates - hello gatecamp griefers....

 

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15 minutes ago, Nanoman said:

If NQ has already decided then I don't mean to beat a dead horse. But as far as I know, they haven't. I have yet to see a formal statement from NQ about that (Twerkmeister pretending to speak for the dev team doesn't count :P ).

 

Your quote proves only that they don't want AI replacing multicrew ships, which I consider a very valid point. But that's a far cry from disallowing client-side scripts from accessing weapons at all.

 

There are many other potential uses for it beside the obvious. Note that I explicitly brought up the issue of scripted weapons as distinct from the issue of automated defense. They are not necessarily the same issue.

 

For example what about weapon groups, firing chains, smart interfaces, and I don't know what all. Those are just examples but the point is that there could be many more examples that we haven't even thought of yet, for which it can be very desirable to allow scripts to access weapons, or even just to mediate player controls.

 

By the way, huge space battles are a valid gameplay concern, but hardly the only one. I don't think you should reduce DU to a battleship arena. Even multicrew ships can do things other than blast enemies out of the sky.

 

well, if you script a turret to shoot enemies on it's own then you clearly replaced a crewmember - so no, that's no far cry there.....

 

weapon groups, linking, gimbaling them better or smth may be possible - it's too soon to talk about that. It replaces a crewmember, but I can see that (as already written in another thread) happening as long as not ALL turrets are linked.

 

We're talking about turrets here. Pew-pew-laser-spewing-mountains-of-death - so yeah, we're talking about PVP here only

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15 minutes ago, Nanoman said:

Unless all weapons are turrets, I wasn't just talking about turrets. And unless a one-man ship can only have one weapon, the ability to handle multiple weapons intelligently is not the same as replacing a crewmember.

fixed, forward mounted weapons != turrets and as I said: yeah, maybe they're linkable - it's just too soon to tell which elements are going to be ingame.

 

Surely you can talk all day about ideas, countermeasures, counter-countermeasures and stuff - there's always a solution to somewhat balance things. But NQ said in many many interviews and in forum posts that there won't be any kind of AI that replaces a crew member, that every turret needs to be manned to enforce teamplay and that automated defenses are only planned for bases.

With that in mind you can think of how to script turrets - and counter those - but those scripts will then only be about aiming them in another direction for example when only 1 turret is manned (so you can exit the turret, run to the other one and it's somewhat pre-aligned), or about smart positioning, helping the gunner with some firing solutions (NOT shooting automatically), and so on.

But it will never be possible (for now, as they said, see above) to fully automate them

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By all means, go on and discuss things your way, fresh blood ist always nice. I'm only so stubborn in this topic because people didn't get the last 1,5 years what automation is about. So please excuse my bias.

 

Since I'm No programmer i really can't Tell you what scripts might be useful, but we will See soon enough :)

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1 hour ago, 0something0 said:

So, what is the boundary between "automated" and "computer-assisted"

You can automate without using a computer, computer assisted automation uses computer assistance to automate. Automation can be completed using solely mechanical means. Auto-mobile is a simple example of mobility assisted transport that doesn't (until recently) rely on computers.

 

or said another way simple machines can be used to automate stuff like production lines, they dont necessarily need computer assistance.

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On 11/15/2017 at 6:32 PM, ATMLVE said:

On the topic of multiple ghost targets, it's all I can think of:

latest?cb=20150412215726

(also @ShinyMagnemite looks it's your dad :P)

Magneton used Agility!

As cool as it would be to use countermeasure devices to that extent, it might be "simpler" to only leave it up to armor/weapon type advantages.

....Like in Pokemon!

It's not very effective... ShinyMagnemite fled!

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