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CoreVamore

Running DU under WINE in Linux

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Hi Team

 

As I am a long term Linux user I am looking at working out how to get DU running under WINE in Linux. Once we know what WINE build, settings and components to install to get DU running that info can then be shared with the rest of the DU community.

 

Naturally we acknowledge that NQ does not support DU under Linux, and that's fine. However I don't think they will mind the community finding ways of getting it to run on other platforms thus increasing DU's exposure to the gaming community.

 

I don't as yet have access to the game so cant begin initial experimentation, and understand that the pre-alpha users are under NDA's, so we cant start down this path as yet.  However this is the first step towards the end goal of DU running under Linux.

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48 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Not a chance.. the hardware requirements are just too high for what is basically a virtualization of the OS.

Sorry to rain on your parade but WINE isnt a virtualisation system at all. It is basically a translation layer that converts Windows API calls into Linux API calls. 

 

In fact WINE is an abbreviation for "Wine Is Not 'an' Emulator"

 

For further info see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)

 

For example I can run Eve Online perfectly well under WINE with only a slight performance hit compared to running it natively under Windows. As my current hardware is above the minimum requirements for DU, and assuming the WINE API works for DU, then its definitely possible ;)

 

Cheers

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I am well aware of WINE and what it is/does. You seem to equal virtualization to emulation which it certainly is not. It's really besides the point and EVE runs on any half decent setup and is quite a different animal code wise than DU. That you run it with a slight performance hit is probably because your system spec is well above what EVE needs so you will be able to run it at reasonable quality. Making it work and making it _work_ are two different things.

 

I'd take Space Engineers, No Man's Sky or Elite Dangerous as a more accurate of how well DU may or may not  run under WINE. It is also not entirely unlikely (can't be bothered to check) that trying to make DU run on anything but actual Windows is a breach of EULA.

 

It just remains a mystery to me why out of the minute marketshare of Linux desktop users, a good number jump through so many hoops to get Windows applications to run. I get the usual (and IMO well outdated and often debunked) arguments and to each his own, but just get a Windows box or at least dual boot..

 

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I doubt it will be a EULA breach just a support issue, i.e. no support.

 

Total linux installs are increasing all the time. The pc market is expanding and the linux percentage of that market is either growing or stagnant depending on which survey is used. Either way that is more linux machines out there.

 

Lastly i havent booted windows in years and i dont intend to any time soon. Its my choice as to what OS I use and i dont particularly care if i need to jump through an extra hoop to get something to run. So i really dont care if I get a slight performance hit, who knows DU might be one of those apps that actually runs better under WINE than Windows itself.

 

I also dont want the huge security and spyware risk that Windows is running on my hardware.

 

Regardless im sure that I, and others, will try and hopefully succeed, no mater what others may believe. 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

I'd take Space Engineers, No Man's Sky or Elite Dangerous as a more accurate of how well DU may or may not  run under WINE. 

 

Just checked. Space Engineers and No Mans Sky run under WINE and Elite Dangerous does not - though it can via QUEM VM a second gpu and lots of hoop jumping. A little to much involved for my liking lol  hence wanting to see DU run via WINE ;)

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13 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

Just checked. Space Engineers and No Mans Sky run under WINE and Elite Dangerous does not - though it can via QUEM VM a second gpu and lots of hoop jumping. A little to much involved for my liking lol  hence wanting to see DU run via WINE ;)

Where is the fps comparison? Load comparison? Temps? 

"Running" is relative

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26 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Where is the fps comparison? Load comparison? Temps? 

"Running" is relative

Geees u really are negative to other ways of doing things. So what if frames MIGHT drop by 15%. I doubt temps or load  times would be any different. 

 

Idk why you are so against people trying. You obviously are only running windows to game on and your arguments in support of others doing the same are in direct opposition to what this thread is about. 

 

We choose Linux as our OS of choice, you picked Windows, thats fine. But dont come here trying to turn this into an OS war. 

 

We want to get DU running under Linux. Deal with it.

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1 hour ago, CoreVamore said:

Geees u really are negative to other ways of doing things. So what if frames MIGHT drop by 15%. I doubt temps or load  times would be any different. 

 

Idk why you are so against people trying. You obviously are only running windows to game on and your arguments in support of others doing the same are in direct opposition to what this thread is about. 

 

We choose Linux as our OS of choice, you picked Windows, thats fine. But dont come here trying to turn this into an OS war. 

 

We want to get DU running under Linux. Deal with it.

I never said I'm against it. Or that you shouldn't try

 

I'm only a fan of testing things thoroughly, so people who run Linux have an idea of how well wine handles games. 

"Running" is certainly not enough, especially when people search for "DU Linux how to". 

Imho if you tackle this then you should do a full test with everything included (temps, specs, versions, load, ....) and compare it to windows. Not because "Linux vs windows" bullshit but because people want to have unbiased and well researched topics on that

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2 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

Total linux installs are increasing all the time. The pc market is expanding and the linux percentage of that market is either growing or stagnant depending on which survey is used. Either way that is more linux machines out there.

 

I also dont want the huge security and spyware risk that Windows is running on my hardware.

 

 

We do need dreamers I guess, who knows, after it has been announced every year for the past decade and a half or so, maybe next year will be the year for Linux

and LOL.. We've seen some major security risks over the past few years, many of which originate in Linux bases tools and applications caused by the handy work of 'open source' code.

 

It shows you have not loaded Windows in years. You also base your opinion on hearsay and not facts as you do not have any. But this is not the place for YA nonsense linux is better than discussion..

 

Good luck on your hoop jumping.. 

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I see some grade-A smartassing.

 

Regardless of that, depending on how much money you're willing to spend, or if you have a decent enough spare graphics card around, you might want to investigate into VFIO and running a hardware accelerated Windows VM.

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Getting back to the original question: I am also a Linux user. Ultimately it is too early to be able to say if it will work. Much has yet to be revealed about the client, and the many changes yet to be made can all affect the ability to run under WINE. Meanwhile, over the course of DU's development, many additions will be made to WINE to fix the gaps that potentially prevent using it under WINE today. It will come down to what the system requirements are for the Windows client: 32bit vs 64bit, Windows 7 supported or only Windows 10, etc. Those system requirements have not yet been defined, and the current client requirements for the pre-alpha are under NDA.

 

For those saying that WINE will make the game too slow, not inherently. Running  something like teamspeak will probably cause more load/latency than WINE would for most applications. Some portions of the WINE implementation can run better than native Windows because native single-threaded routines are implemented in a multi-threaded fashion in WINE. WINE is really a remarkable piece of software.

 

I would also hold out some hope for a native Linux client, even if unsupported by NQ. NQ has acknowledged Linux in the past such as this from during the Kickstarter:

Quote

First, we love Linux! Actually, several of our programmers are running Linux on a daily basis as their main programming environment. The game currently runs on Linux every day, on these programmers machine. Now, it does not necessarily mean that we can ship the game on Linux, there are many issues that we need to solve: compatibility of all the third-party libraries we use, selecting a distro, deal with the maintenance efforts that goes with having a code base that runs on clang and visual studio, etc. It is not impossible, we would love to do it, but ultimately it will depend on the market size relative to the costs of maintenance. So, if we can see a strong movement of the community in favor of Linux, it will significantly increase the chance of the game being released on Linux.

I have not seen anything where NQ has yet tried to gauge the size of Linux interest. In reality, I expect it will only be a small portion of its user base. But, perhaps NQ will allow us to use the client they are already building for their own developers on an as-is basis - no installer, no fancy updater, just a tarball we need to resolve dependencies on ourselves.

 

Meanwhile, the client technologies public listed (Unigine and  Coherent GT), combined with the publicly-disclosed Linux use by developers, encourages me that the client is less-likely to have technologies or libraries which cannot be handled by WINE. I have been quietly following development, hoping that I will be able to play on Linux. I also admit that for a game that will have an on-going playing cost, $100 for a Windows license is not that excessive, regardless of my personal dislike for Microsoft or the Windows desktop design.

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Security doesn't have anything to do with the Windows vs. Linux debate. Don't throw in random arguments.

Testing DU on Wine is not a bad idea but there is only one way to check.

 

I'd be more interested about trying it in a Xen VM though, even if GPU pass-through is needed (looks at QubesOS).

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that CPU may be a bigger problem than GPU.

 

Regards,

Shadow

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As I mentioned just above you, GPU passthrough will work just fine. I ran plenty of games with imperceptible performance loss (at least in the graphics department) in the past in a VM, altho using KVM with VFIO, not Xen.

 

The real hang-up here is to have decent PCIe device grouping, which depends on the mainboard manufacturer, and ideally a CPU with PCIe ACS support. As far as graphics hardware goes, NVidia works way better, but they're actively trying to discourage PEG, whereas AMD doesn't do that, but requires explicit support/knowledge of the model used by the VM monitor, to work around AMD cards ignoring PCIe reset calls.

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6 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

We do need dreamers I guess, who knows, after it has been announced every year for the past decade and a half or so, maybe next year will be the year for Linux

and LOL.. We've seen some major security risks over the past few years, many of which originate in Linux bases tools and applications caused by the handy work of 'open source' code.

 

It shows you have not loaded Windows in years. You also base your opinion on hearsay and not facts as you do not have any. But this is not the place for YA nonsense linux is better than discussion..

 

Good luck on your hoop jumping.. 

So many assumptions.....

 

You use Linux every day. Its in your router/modem. Its in your smart TV. It runs the majority of the Internet. Its used to run alot of NASA's gear. Its a core foundation of the Internet of Things.

 

Most Linux users dont care if it becomes big on the desktop or not, I dont. We use it because it works for what we want it to do.

 

All platforms have security risks, and on Linux they can be found and plugged very quickly.

 

And as for loading Windows.... I've been in the computing industry for over 35 years and still support Windows, I was there at its birth, so I know it quite well thx ;)  And yet I personally run Linux.

 

And you started the windows vs linux tone, not me. This thread is about getting DU running under Linux and thats it. Simple.

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7 hours ago, Lethys said:

I never said I'm against it. Or that you shouldn't try

 

I'm only a fan of testing things thoroughly, so people who run Linux have an idea of how well wine handles games. 

"Running" is certainly not enough, especially when people search for "DU Linux how to". 

Imho if you tackle this then you should do a full test with everything included (temps, specs, versions, load, ....) and compare it to windows. Not because "Linux vs windows" bullshit but because people want to have unbiased and well researched topics on that

Fair enough. Though I am not going to go through a side by side comparison of the game running on one platform compared to another. Once again this isnt a platform discussion.

 

Performance is relative too. I would be happy with an average of 40 - 60fps for game play. A 'professional' gamer may not be. 40fps may be perfectly fine for a builder in DU, it may not be for a PvP'er. So the concept of 'running' is quite squishy.

 

Load times is pretty much a non issue for DU (not that ive ever noticed any load issues when running things under WINE) as there are no load screens except for the initial game boot and login.

 

CPU temps is another 'I never noticed any difference' scenario and I doubt that will change with DU.

 

However the point is to documents what versions, tips and tricks etc are needed to get DU to run and document it and update it over time.

 

I will be happy to post the results and others, with similar hardware to mine (and others who post their setups) can get a feel for whatever platform differences there may be - but once again platform comparisons are not the goal. Just getting a usable, playable DU experience.

 

Thanks for your thoughts :)

 

 

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6 hours ago, Glowtape said:

I see some grade-A smartassing.

 

Regardless of that, depending on how much money you're willing to spend, or if you have a decent enough spare graphics card around, you might want to investigate into VFIO and running a hardware accelerated Windows VM.

Also true Glowtape. 

 

The only problem I have with doing that now is that I am on a m-itx AM4 platform so running dual video cards is pretty much a no-go for me, hence the WINE route.  ;)

 

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2 hours ago, Shadow said:

Security doesn't have anything to do with the Windows vs. Linux debate. Don't throw in random arguments.

Testing DU on Wine is not a bad idea but there is only one way to check.

 

I'd be more interested about trying it in a Xen VM though, even if GPU pass-through is needed (looks at QubesOS).

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that CPU may be a bigger problem than GPU.

 

Regards,

Shadow

Options are always good for sure, though as I mentioned in my last post, for me, a second GPU is a no-go.

 

CPU side I should be fine (unless DU uses only a couple high speed threads) as I have 8 mildly overclocked AMD Ryzen 7 1700 cores to play with ;) 

 

Lets see where this adventure takes us :)

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I use both Windows and Linux, Windows for gaming and Linux for literally everything else.  I don't have anything important tied to Windows, and I don't do anything of true importance on my Windows machine... there's a reason for that.  Both performance, and otherwise.

 

I can definitely understand the desire to completely disassociate oneself from Windows.  I haven't tried Wine in years, and even if I can get Dual Universe working with Wine I'll still main it on Windows, as I use Windows for gaming... but I'll give it a whirl at some point.  Considering the Linux/Mac support is a "maybe for after release" I can't imagine official support will come any time soon (if at all).  However, I am very much of the opinion that inclusion of as many as possible is very important, it leads to a stronger game in the end.  Wine can be the avenue of this inclusion, so I'll try it out at some point.

 

I don't think the goal is that CoreVamore wants to get DU running on Wine because it will run better than on Windows... that's not the question he is trying to prove.  He wants to know if DU can be compatible with Wine, whether it takes a performance hit is irrelevant.  This endeavor requires no intervention on NQs part, and as such I don't see why there's all this backlash on the issue.

 

I'm all about alternative solutions... and this seems like one that can only be beneficial if we can get it working... so let's try it out, ya?

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8 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

We do need dreamers I guess, who knows, after it has been announced every year for the past decade and a half or so, maybe next year will be the year for Linux

and LOL.. We've seen some major security risks over the past few years, many of which originate in Linux bases tools and applications caused by the handy work of 'open source' code.

 

It shows you have not loaded Windows in years. You also base your opinion on hearsay and not facts as you do not have any. But this is not the place for YA nonsense linux is better than discussion..

 

Good luck on your hoop jumping.. 

Omg... the moment I know someone is blowing smoke is when they try and convince me security risks are due to the open source nature of a product.

 

This isn't about Windows vs. Linux, it's about the fact that some users do not use Windows... but would love to boot DU on Linux.  That would further increase the market for DU, making DU a stronger game in the end.

 

Furthermore, just because you don't see the allure of a Linux distribution over Windows does not mean others don't.  Your opinion on Windows being vastly superior for whatever reason is irrelevant. 

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Not arguing any of this.. And I did not bring the security argument into this.. The open source argument is a point generally brought up by Linux advocates.

The guy can use whatever he likes.

 

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2 hours ago, Hades said:

He wants to know if DU can be compatible with Wine, whether it takes a performance hit is irrelevant.  This endeavor requires no intervention on NQs part, and as such I don't see why there's all this backlash on the issue.

What NQ could however do is add WINE to their test matrix and make sure it'll run just fine under it (i.e. checking whether it uses APIs that don't work well under WINE).

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1 hour ago, Glowtape said:

What NQ could however do is add WINE to their test matrix and make sure it'll run just fine under it (i.e. checking whether it uses APIs that don't work well under WINE).

They have much more important things to do at the moment, in my opinion of course.

 

As for down the line, I hope they'll implement dedicated support for Linux.  Rather than get it working with Wine, if it isn't already.

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