Civilian, Ecosphere and Infrastructure damage limitation pact

[SteveMcFarlane]

I propose that a pact is formed between groups of all types whereby we agree to minimise damage to infrastructure, ecosphere and civilians in any form of conflict, and to seek to limit strip mining of habitable planets.

 

This would include a ban on (and an agreement to oppose including with force) superweapons capable of destroying large areas or entite continents or planets.

A ban on weapons which litter an area with indiscriminate killing objects, including mines of all types.

A limit on mining on planets which are very habitable by humans.

A ban on city bombardments where civilians are present, and a ban on destroying infrastructure such as space elevators and other public travel methods.

 

These are just a few ideas that I have to help maintain peace and prevent damage to green worlds and their inhabitants.

If anyone would like to add anything else or sign up to discuss the pact, please do comment.

[Bella_Astrum]

I think this is a very noble and decent pact. It would be a challenge to maintain or even enforce it, but as someone who hopes to one day found a civilian city, it would be nice to see such places respected by all.

 

I fear that as we near release, more war-hungry organization's will appear, and such a pact may be fragile, but my idealist, utopian-self would enjoy seeing such a pact upheld where possible .

[Anaximander]

I propose that a pact is formed between groups of all types whereby we agree to minimise damage to infrastructure, ecosphere and civilians in any form of conflict, and to seek to limit strip mining of habitable planets.

 

This would include a ban on (and an agreement to oppose including with force) superweapons capable of destroying large areas or entite continents or planets.

A ban on weapons which litter an area with indiscriminate killing objects, including mines of all types.

A limit on mining on planets which are very habitable by humans.

A ban on city bombardments where civilians are present, and a ban on destroying infrastructure such as space elevators and other public travel methods.

 

These are just a few ideas that I have to help maintain peace and prevent damage to green worlds and their inhabitants.

If anyone would like to add anything else or sign up to discuss the pact, please do comment.

 

Nope, nope & nope. If some people need to learn the hard way that piracy is bad, they'll learn via massive bombardment means.

[Cybrex]

You have my interest.

 

Rules aside, how would these be enforced? Who makes that decision to enforce it? 

 

Just some questions that first popped in to my head.

[SteveMcFarlane]

The worry that I have for the game is a big powerful (and very evil) group building a superweapon and laying waste to en entire city.

A city where many players, who are not aligned to a faction, will have scrimped and saved and got themselves a couple of decent ships and a reasonable home and really worked hard... and in a second for it to be curb stomped by a group they can do nothing against.

[Anaximander]

You have my interest.

 

Rules aside, how would these be enforced? Who makes that decision to enforce it? 

 

Just some questions that first popped in to my head.

A rabid honey badger pack will. These guys don't care.

[Anaximander]

The worry that I have for the game is a big powerful (and very evil) group building a superweapon and laying waste to en entire city.

A city where many players, who are not aligned to a faction, will have scrimped and saved and got themselves a couple of decent ships and a reasonable home and really worked hard... and in a second for it to be curb stomped by a group they can do nothing against.

Why destroy them? Nobody ever destroyed someone without first trying to convince them to join them. A group that grew that big, didn't grew so big by doing stupid things. They know logistics, they know that more ships, equal more manpower. And if the small city/faction didn't join the MUCH larger empire that had a "superweapon" , then they are stupid and social natural selection triumphs.

[SteveMcFarlane]

Well, the rules would be enforced by fleets drawn from pact members, and would target military and governmental assets only. If the rebels could defeat the death star (twice) then so can we.

[SteveMcFarlane]

Nobody should be forced into anything specially at the barrel of a giant laser cannon.

[Bella_Astrum]

Aside from the fact I don't know how doable such powerful weapons would be at this stage of development, a Pact of Peace amongst existing organization's could help establish the foundation on which those who sign up to it, agree to respect land as you've outlined FHG_Steve, but also to reassure each other and help civilization within the game grow.

 

From reading some blogs it seems some things will take time to do, and if people or orgs are too busy blasting at one another, that could hinder progression for all.

 

Just some random thoughts.

[Anaximander]

Nobody should be forced into anything specially at the barrel of a giant laser cannon.

This is what the Genena Convention dictates as well. Rules of War, in which, if the enemy tells you to surrender and you don't, they got every right to drop as many bombs on your head until you do. They offered you a chance, you didn't took it. Ce la vie. Blame the stupid leaders for your city being leveled.

[SteveMcFarlane]

Whilst not necessarily a peace pact, this will stop early cities being blitzed into oblivion by a group that went straight to building orbital bombardment ships.

It might be more difficult later on to continue policing such a pact, but its worth it to help newer players/lone players and to maintain the quality of green worlds and the cities built upon them.

However, and I think many will agree here, Alioth should be enshrined as a neutral world for all to enjoy, a world for embassies and bazaars where everyone can feel safe. This pact could be expanded for that.

[SteveMcFarlane]

This is what the Genena Convention dictates as well. Rules of War, in which, if the enemy tells you to surrender and you don't, they got every right to drop as many bombs on your head until you do. They offered you a chance, you didn't took it. Ce la vie. Blame the stupid leaders for your city being leveled.

I'm gonna have to keep an eye on you, arn't I?

You are dangerous.

[Cybrex]

Alioth, and any planets in the same solar system in my opinion should remain neutral, and would benefit from a pact like this. But only for planetary bodies.

 

Anything beyond said solar system is free game, and is up to the org in that system to defend it, and keep policed. Keeps it simple, and lets new players have a safe starting area both on the starting planet, and the others in the solar system. I can even see a group being formed with the sole purpose of being a police force in Alioth, just keeping the peace.

 

Beyond that though, again, free game anywhere else in the galaxy. 

[Bella_Astrum]

I imagine eventually someone will start a police force organization. Perhaps even such an organisation that is solely for the peaceful maintenance of a planet or even solar system.

 

The possibilities are huge. All said and done, everyone will be part of helping to shape the civilization of Dual Universe. I personally would love to see organization's working together for the betterment of all.

[nietoperek]

Ekumen from Le Guin Hainish Cycle, anybody?

 

Or you want create another Foundation like in Asimov's books?

[Anaximander]

I'm gonna have to keep an eye on you, arn't I?

You are dangerous.

I may, or may not, fashion myself as a man of lucrative opportunities. I mean, accidents happen every now and then. Mistaken identification of a planet or a city. You dig? 

[Thor Wotansen]

I'm all for Alioth and the starting system planets being neutral and largely superweapon free, but if my organization expends the infrastructure and effort to find a new system and builds a stargate that gets us there, why should we not harvest that system as we see fit?  Silverlight Industries certainly has interests in expanding it's reach and if we discover a system rich in minerals and other resources I'm sure we will defend it and control who gets access.  If this means we have to make a superweapon to do so we will.  War is harsh, but the market is truly unforgiving.  Remember that the most dangerous war is waged with economics, not weapons.

[Darius Sanguna]

The problems with "civilians" in this game is that they are the economical and industrial power behind the faction that you're fighting and in this city can also be military industrial facilities. And in DU we haven't the moralic problem of "killing" other because it isn't permanent, Which basically means why shouldn't i target the cities of my enemy?

 

Of course bombardements of cities just because you are bored or just for fun, is questionable and should be prohibited.

 

Regarding infrastructure, in a war of course you want to destroy the enemy infrastructure to slow him down or render him completely helpless and don't begin with "public" yes many of it will be publically usable, but it still belongs to someone and this someone could use it without restrictions for military purposes, if its your enemy you want to destroy it.

 

And what is in the case that someone has build a space elevator for the "public" (No one is so nice and is just building something for everyone, so it must have some kind of use for the builder) on my planet without asking me? Why shouldn't i be allowed to level it?

 

I agree with the other points but the last point, as i've mentioned, isn't feasible for the pact.

[Halo381]

However, and I think many will agree here, Alioth should be enshrined as a neutral world for all to enjoy, a world for embassies and bazaars where everyone can feel safe. This pact could be expanded for that.

 

You'll never be able to enforce that, especially at the beginning. Everyone is going out to make a name for themselves, they won't spend much time trying to protect others too.

[Vyz Ejstu]

"Vulture Corp really is interested in maintaining order. I would second the idea, but I share the same apprehensions as the people above. A giant police force would be an Utopian dream or a totalitarian disaster. Who are the people going to be in charge of this massive force? Who are the people that are going to replace them? How well can the top positions be secured from spies of multiple alliances and organisations? Will politics, favours and blackmail hinder its operations? I want some form of order in this Dual Universe, even if chaos means fun. A little order won't hurt anyone much. However, I don't want another kind of ****ed Nat**** scenario where the officiating body is financed, run and hampered by its largest sponsors and powerful members. Do you have any set plan in mind to handle most of these challenges? If you do, I'll be interested in learning more.

 

As for Alioth and/or its systems being neutral territory:

 

You'll never be able to enforce that, especially at the beginning. Everyone is going out to make a name for themselves, they won't spend much time trying to protect others too.

 

 

That's the best answer so far. People will mess up and cause wars. That's why there are alliances. If any small organisation is afraid of being bullied, join a large alliance , wait for a few weeks/months after launch before you start playing, or find another way to secure yourself. In the long run, a group of alliances, may enforce a "No Fire" kind of zone in Alioth or its system, but for the first few weeks and months, it might be macabre for some people."

[Warden]

If the game will allow it, a lot will be possible.

 

I see a lot of talk about specifics and the hardships. A lot of questions about detail. And these are vital and to be considered.

 

But in the end, one has to try and see how it goes. If people want some order or stability, they have to create it out of a potential chaos. In the end I believe you can create such a zone or policed area, no matter the name or who runs it. I also like to think some kind of Alioth police force (or at least one for some kind of main city there) is possible. You can try to create a dedicated organization or group for it when the time is right and if there is ideally a notable city made by players for all.

 

Alternatively you have some alliance try to manage some kind of loose police force. Can be part of emergent gameplay, so it's possible. How easy or hard in turn? Depends. But not impossible. If you want it done, tackle it. There will be enough volunteers at least.

[GalloInfligo]

The problem with this pact, is the same problem we have with our Geneva Convention, rules of war.  there are always loopholes, and countries that will break the rules.  Take the Vietnam war, and the rules on treating POW's  who enforced those rules??? no one!  so you would have the same problem here if a very powerful Organization breaks this rule, a lot of smaller ones not at war with them, will not want to risk their assets to help punish them.

 

I think its a great idea, but I don't think it will work.

[Kiklix]

Excellent idea FHG_Steve! You have the full support of COPS. I for one do not want to see a barren wasteland everywhere I go.  Even if it's a longshot it's worth a try. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke

[KingofPR]

You would need a fleet from day one to Influence Alioth and the universe later,For me it's almost impossible for something like this if you don't have a army with you to do anything like this.I see more of an anarchy in the first days of this game like in the story the revs gave us.