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Bitmouse

Construct Creator for Blueprint Design

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7 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Well yes, because again: DU doesn't aim for single players. Nor does DU aim for creative mode players. DU does aim for MMO players.

And introducing such a creative world (it rly doesn't matter that it gets deleted or smth) is just against everything DU wants to achieve

people aren't forced. People are informed that: 1) there will be safezones where you can build and do stuff unharmed and 2) everything outside will be PVP, except if PLAYERS do protect other members. So noone forces you here to build outside. Noone forces you to play DU. You get a game with certain mechanics (which are clearly promoted and which are clearly visible to anyone) - so no, you can't complain afterwards that there is no creative mode on some seperate server

 

edit:

and stop saying you don't want a seperate server for it when you have written that on multiple occasions

 

Well yes, because again: DU doesn't aim for single players. Nor does DU aim for creative mode players. DU does aim for MMO players.

And introducing such a creative world (it rly doesn't matter that it gets deleted or smth) is just against everything DU wants to achieve

 

I haven't seen any statement from NQ saying that it wants MMO players in lieu of creative mode players, or vice-versa. Having more players of any type will most likely increase the populace of the game/universe.

 

people aren't forced. People are informed that: 1) there will be safezones where you can build and do stuff unharmed and 2) everything outside will be PVP, except if PLAYERS do protect other members. So noone forces you here to build outside. Noone forces you to play DU. You get a game with certain mechanics (which are clearly promoted and which are clearly visible to anyone) - so no, you can't complain afterwards that there is no creative mode on some seperate server

 

I think you are confusing my intent here. I just want a tool created to help make creations. It has nothing to do with creating separate zones that are persistent.

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1 minute ago, Bitmouse said:

I stated specifically in previous posts that those creations would immediately be deleted after the player left the session. It is just for blueprint creation.

that doesn't really matter when people will only be there to create blueprints (perfectly safe! which introduces ANOTHER problem!) - this WILL split the player base as EVERYONE will use this to create blueprints without the fear of pirates

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4 minutes ago, Lethys said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what? it's not about instancing? I don't even know what you are suggesting here when I reread all your comments

I should be clear and change my verbiage.

 

I am for any form of construct creator. I was offering suggestions on how it could be done using existing technology. 

 

The main point is that you can create a construct, test it, and then save it in a file (Blueprint), which can then be spawned via some mechanism in game once the resources have been collected, most likely after a build time.

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

that doesn't really matter when people will only be there to create blueprints (perfectly safe! which introduces ANOTHER problem!) - this WILL split the player base as EVERYONE will use this to create blueprints without the fear of pirates

People are already going to figure out a way to create blueprints without the fear of pirates.

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9 minutes ago, Bitmouse said:

 

I haven't seen any statement from NQ saying that it wants MMO players in lieu of creative mode players, or vice-versa. Having more players of any type will most likely increase the populace of the game/universe.

Quote from https://www.dualthegame.com/

 

"

What is Dual Universe?

Dual Universe is a Continuous Single-Shard sandbox MMORPG taking place in a vast Sci-Fi universe, focusing on emergent gameplay with player-driven in-game economy, politics, trade and warfare. Players can freely modify the voxel-based universe by creating structures, spaceships or giant orbital stations, giving birth to empires and civilizations.

"

12 minutes ago, Bitmouse said:

I think you are confusing my intent here. I just want a tool created to help make creations. It has nothing to do with creating separate zones that are persistent.

And we already told you (several times) that NQ plans for this. INGAME. without the need for some seperate server

9 minutes ago, Bitmouse said:

People are already going to figure out a way to create blueprints without the fear of pirates.

Yes. And they should do it INGAME, not on some seperate server

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But again bitmouse if they find a way around pirates....it will be because the were clever in game....not out game of securing their constructiin /base/ persinnel/resources.

The game requires you to gather resources in order to build.....not build outside of the game and then "port in" your BP.....everything is done in game.

Dual Universe whilst there might be a separate section LATER if they decide its feasable without breaking the dynamics......empasis on considering ALL the implications of such a system before doing so. Whilst you may feel this is important....yes ..its important to you....but not necessarily others.

If however they decide to give you a separate section to build....you will stll be required to log in to the server...(security is important)....this means they have to devote extra people or take them away from existing things....causing issues in other areas or delays to existing things.

To be fair it is pretty pointless at this juncture. You may think its feasable and state how it is....however you do not know enough of whats happening in DU or behind the scenes to be able to judge what is feasable or not and neither do we..however they need to get the main part right before they look at other things.

So lets leave it at that and if they do come out with something....good for you. If not.....enjoy the game how it was meant to be played.

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5 hours ago, Lethys said:

Quote from https://www.dualthegame.com/

 

"

What is Dual Universe?

Dual Universe is a Continuous Single-Shard sandbox MMORPG taking place in a vast Sci-Fi universe, focusing on emergent gameplay with player-driven in-game economy, politics, trade and warfare. Players can freely modify the voxel-based universe by creating structures, spaceships or giant orbital stations, giving birth to empires and civilizations.

"

And we already told you (several times) that NQ plans for this. INGAME. without the need for some seperate server

Yes. And they should do it INGAME, not on some seperate server

Again, I already told you that doing it on a separate server is not necessary.

 

Also, the use of the term MMORPG does not preclude the use of other player-types that may play more than one game type.

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5 hours ago, Alethion said:

But again bitmouse if they find a way around pirates....it will be because the were clever in game....not out game of securing their constructiin /base/ persinnel/resources.

The game requires you to gather resources in order to build.....not build outside of the game and then "port in" your BP.....everything is done in game.

Dual Universe whilst there might be a separate section LATER if they decide its feasable without breaking the dynamics......empasis on considering ALL the implications of such a system before doing so. Whilst you may feel this is important....yes ..its important to you....but not necessarily others.

If however they decide to give you a separate section to build....you will stll be required to log in to the server...(security is important)....this means they have to devote extra people or take them away from existing things....causing issues in other areas or delays to existing things.

To be fair it is pretty pointless at this juncture. You may think its feasable and state how it is....however you do not know enough of whats happening in DU or behind the scenes to be able to judge what is feasable or not and neither do we..however they need to get the main part right before they look at other things.

So lets leave it at that and if they do come out with something....good for you. If not.....enjoy the game how it was meant to be played.

I think what I have mentioned could be a part of how the game is meant to be played. Again, I should iterate that BP's don't simply let you spawn in whatever you want. You still have to mine the resources, then use whatever in game mechanic is used to build and spawn the item (which can vary a lot, including possibilities that would be vulnerable to pirates if built in a pvp open zone). The only game dynamic this would break would be to not require players to utilize resources to test design iteration and to not require players to use the base interface and dynamics at to design. Depending on how the interface and dynamics are implemented such as the inclusion of build drones and the cost of jetpack fuels, this could be a huge ease-of-use perk for design, simply a nice addition for peace of mind/ability to focus while building, or completely unnecessary. If the in game build system allows you to easily move around your builds in 360 degrees with the capacity to hover and orient at any point and to destroy/reconstruct at no cost then I see no need for this sort of Construct Creator. However, if this isn't the case then the argument for it as an ease of use element is compelling.

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Sigh this topic is over, i will paste this.

 

This Statement from NQ directly should effectively END the......Debate (for lack of a better word)

 

In conclusion:

Yes, having a creative mode inside the game, just for designing purpose (without giving any free resources in the "real" in-game universe) is something we are considering.

However, this is a huge feature to develop, and while we would like to add it to the game, there is a high chance it won't be implemented before the official game release. If it's implemented at some point, it will be probably after, in an expansion.

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

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I don't know if it's been mentioned, but my favorite argument against creative mode is that it makes ship building harder. If you want a good ship, you have to pay for it, or work for it. It makes the entire ship economy more interesting, deeper, and profitable for those that are good at building ships. If anyone could easily design a ship to perfection, there would be no need for good ship builders, except for unimaginative replicas like x-wings or the Enterprise. Without depth, to building, the ship market becomes worthless. 

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Well, I did not read the whole thread just got an idea what you are talking about.

 

I do not want to have a creative mode, this is totally counterproductive.

 

DU is on big universe, on one server and every action taken by any member of the universe should affect the whole system (butterfly effect). Testing out new blueprints must be an economical risk and it must be time consuming. Engineering can't be free because it would not help to rise an economy system. To have a vital and stable economy is an essential point for the success of DU.

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1 hour ago, Lethys said:

Because of several reasons we alreday discussed here. In lenght

I believe that the ideas of making it on the same server, but distant from the main area, and deleted after use would solve all of those problems.

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1 hour ago, Vellnn said:

I feel like creative mode would kind of spit on the spirit of the game being single shard : /

It should be looked at less as a mode and more as a tool. How do we design, test, and iterate constructs/blueprints in a way that is simple, intuitive, complete, and risk free.

 

It wouldn't take away from the game anymore than wordpad takes away from blogger or final cut pro takes away from youtube.

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1 hour ago, ATMLVE said:

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but my favorite argument against creative mode is that it makes ship building harder. If you want a good ship, you have to pay for it, or work for it. It makes the entire ship economy more interesting, deeper, and profitable for those that are good at building ships. If anyone could easily design a ship to perfection, there would be no need for good ship builders, except for unimaginative replicas like x-wings or the Enterprise. Without depth, to building, the ship market becomes worthless. 

This is not true. A case in point is Empyrion. There are emergent best practices when building ships. These require a knowledge set and skill to implement. What's more is there will likely be classes of ships that utilize an existing meta. Designing to this will require depth of knowledge of pvp/industry.

 

It will not be easy to design a ship to perfection.

 

This is just a tool.

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56 minutes ago, Oije said:

Well, I did not read the whole thread just got an idea what you are talking about.

 

I do not want to have a creative mode, this is totally counterproductive.

 

DU is on big universe, on one server and every action taken by any member of the universe should affect the whole system (butterfly effect). Testing out new blueprints must be an economical risk and it must be time consuming. Engineering can't be free because it would not help to rise an economy system. To have a vital and stable economy is an essential point for the success of DU.

Currently we have technologies that replaced previously laborious tasks. Take Word. It has replaced the need to write by hand, acquire ink and paper, and manually edit and retype/write papers. The economies adapted and profited from these changes while improving overall productivity.

 

I would much rather work on a document on my computer than with pad and paper.

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@Bitmouse I have an idea for you.

 

Create organisation that will focus on designing ships. Find far away galaxy, claim some territory, provide resources, money and safety for your members. They will essentially get nice facility to practice their skills. It will feel for them like they play creative mode :) 

 

Oh wait... isn't what this game is about?

 

So you see what you proposing here? Rob many organisations from this possibility because you want free facilities for that. It is, because this very thing comes with game play, stimulates economy, gives people things to do, game make sense. If you can't see how DU is different here? I seriously recommend you, to rethink if you really got the core idea of DU.

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Though i would thoroughly enjoy a single player creative mode until Alpha, ill have to disagree with your original statement. BUT, if there was such a thing, i think it should be very limited (small area to go around in) and no progress being transferred out of that mode. Otherwise the impact on the game would be too against what NQ has talked about wanting.

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2 hours ago, Bitmouse said:

This is not true. A case in point is Empyrion. There are emergent best practices when building ships. These require a knowledge set and skill to implement. What's more is there will likely be classes of ships that utilize an existing meta. Designing to this will require depth of knowledge of pvp/industry.

 

It will not be easy to design a ship to perfection.

 

This is just a tool.

Actually, it is fundamentally and inarguably true, by logic. Limiting users in their ability to make ships can only possibly make the process more complicated. The more tools you give to people to help them make ships, the easier the process becomes. Whether or not it is a good motive for not allowing players a free creative environment to design ships, that is up for debate. 

 

That it would make the process more difficult, and thus make there be fewer good ship builders, is not an opinion however, it is a fact. 

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2 hours ago, Bitmouse said:

I believe that the ideas of making it on the same server, but distant from the main area, and deleted after use would solve all of those problems.

No it wouldn't solve any problem:

- builders would have an unfair advantage on the market because they can just create any ship/blueprint with no reason for them to defend themselves

- players would still be split

- less interaction between players, as everyone who wants to build something won't be there

- less emergent gameplay because orgs and players don't need to come up with tactics to protect their builders

 

I'm all in for some kind of creative mode in-game as nq said they want to implement, but I want it to be balanced. And I want it to be useful, well thought out and emergent for everyone.

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4 minutes ago, Lethys said:

No it wouldn't solve any problem:

- builders would have an unfair advantage on the market because they can just create any ship/blueprint with no reason for them to defend themselves

- players would still be split

- less interaction between players, as everyone who wants to build something won't be there

- less emergent gameplay because orgs and players don't need to come up with tactics to protect their builders

 

I'm all in for some kind of creative mode in-game as nq said they want to implement, but I want it to be balanced. And I want it to be useful, well thought out and emergent for everyone.

Not to mention if creating a blueprint for a construct requires little to no actual material investment, then the market would be loaded with blueprints especially saturated with bad ones. This would devalue blueprints sharply, and therefor devalue R&D as an activity. Not a fan

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Quote

A Construct Creator would be a feature for the game. The capacity for designers to seamlessly build and test designs, with importable blueprints, would be an ease of use feature that would allow citizens to streamline their create, test, reiterate design cycle. This could be done in a way as to utilize technology that is already being developed for the game. 

I'm not sure I like this concept - the gameplay is supposed to be emergent and immersive based on player interaction.  If we can just go 'whomp' there's my starship from a blueprint we design offline, the emergent factor is removed - example:  if I am designing something at my base and a band of pirates comes by to shoot up the place, then I have to drop what I'm doing and defend my base and protect my resources and construct that I'm working on...  thats emergent gameplay.  If I can otherwise sit in a protected offline environ ALL the time and design design design its less likely I'm going to be IN WORLD because I'll be busy elsewhere... 

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I personally like the idea of some type of creative mode but I have to agree that this should take place with in the game server with all the other players and not on a different server . 

The easy solution for privacy is own a tile in the Safe Zone and then build a base or simple hanger that people cant see in and lock the permission so only you can enter it  .

You are still playing the game and being a productive member while maximizing your privacy, security and being able to build alone if that is what you prefer  .

Just Saying.    =)  

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