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Emma Roid

Travel, Big ships & Blueprints

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I am really looking forward to the pre-alpha, but as an 8-year Eve Online veteran and almost 2 years of Space Engineers I have a few concerns/recommandations. I am curious how other people think about this, and if the devs said anything regarding these topics.

 

My concerns are: 

  • Travel should be slow
  • Large ships should be full of equipment
  • Blueprint use should be limited.

 

Let me explain :).

 

Travel

In Eve online you can go to the central trading hub (Jita) with a couple of carriers or jumpfreighters in less than an hour from anywhere in the 7500 systems. 

The introduction of cariers, jump freighters and jump beacon networks (over the years) killed off local trade hubs, and most of the deep space industry. Deep space / 0.0 is now mostly just used for (moon)mining and alliance wars. Trading is mostly limited to the center zone and the profit margins are so low most people do not bother. It also had the side-effect that empires got too big: it is so easy to have fast moving roving fleets cross the universe the empires got bigger and bigger. I miss the early years where you could set out with a group of friends, find yourself an empty solar-system and build yourselves a home. Those days are long gone in Eve-Online: you have to negotiate a rent from an empire, then mine your ass off paying that rent, or you sign up for endless grinding fleet service but never fight for your own home. (this is why I stopped with Eve-online a few years ago)

To avoid this, travel should be slow:

  • I think we should not have stargates in this game: that would make big empires too easy. People would just restrict their use to their own alliance to get a war advantage.
  • I think 12 hours flying or so to the next solar-system is fine to start with (was mentioned in one of the videos). Maybe you can introduce a warp drive so that travel to moons and panets within a solarsystem is a bit quicker, but to the next solar system should take hours (at least 1 or 2 hours I would say, enough so that it is a real expedition, not just a little hop and back).

This makes trade more viable, with better profit margins (you could even pay for getting your ship moved while you are offline?: dock it in a huge ship as in the Dune books for instance?)

As long as all the basic building components can be found in each solar system there is no need for fast travel. Slow travel will create many local economies instead of one big one, give room for real exploring, make trade and local industry viable. It will make the universe feel big. It will also mean that many people from two sides of the universe will never meet, but I see that as a plus, not a problem.

 

Big ships

In Space engineers, when you build a really big battleship, it is mostly empty space: the power plants, oxygen plants, etc. take very little space. For the rest its an endless repeat of engines and guns, but they slap on on the outside. Inside it is mostly empty space. I do not like that. This way there is no real reason to build a big battleship other than the look: a smaller one is just as strong, and easier to armor.

I would suggest that in DU the equipment should be BIG. And I would also suggest lots of supporting equipement.

For Instance: say a large shield generator can be made stronger with one or more capaciters to handle peak loads, and they need 1 or more cooling systems so it overloads slower, they all need to be linked to a control unit to configure these settings, but they need to physically close to work. Then add that when a shield generator overloads, it explodes (seems very reasonable). This forces you to armor the room on the inside. Follow up with making the shield area it covers a limited sized disk, not a sphere. The effect will be that if you want a battleship to be shielded, you need a series of armored rooms full of equipment.

Repeat this type of thing for large guns, engines, power supply, sensor arrays etc, and you get a naturally big ship. I think a large ship focused for battle should just have room for living quarters and a few small ship bays, but for the rest be full of equipment.

(I am speculating stuff like this fits with the game engine, and should not take much performance as the supporting equipment can just be calculated through as improved stats for the shield module).

A positive side effect is that large trading ships - that DO need lots of empty space - will always be more vulnerable than a battleship of the same size.

 

Blueprints

I like the blueprint idea to store and recreate your personal designs. But I think it is a bad idea to make mass production too easy (also an experiance from Eve online). In the end somebody will come up with an optimal design for a small scout, miner, fighter etc, and then everyone will just endlessly copy that design. I think we all want there to be lots of variations in ship design.

Standards might still happen, but I think we can fight to keep diversity by limiting the blueprint functionality. One way of doing this would be to make the use difficult (as in Space Engineers you see the blueprint in space, and then have to slowly welt it together from the inside out: very hard to do for large blueprints). You could also make it so that you can reproduce your blueprint, but only 1 reproduced ship of the blueprint can exists in DU: that way you limit it to personal use as a sort of 'save game', but not stimulate mass production. Wat would be the dead of ship variation is the buying and selling of blueprints, I hope we do not get that.

As I expect some wipes in the alpha and beta phases of the game the blueprint is a great help, but personally I hope that it is dropped when the game is out for real. Losing a ship should hurt, and not just for the materials: it should take time and effort to create a new one. 

This will limit piracy, because it makes piracy more time-consuming and harder to make profitable, and it will limit war: nobody is going to trow their hard-build ships away because an alliance leader has a temper tantrum. War will come when a group of people feel it is a just cause.

 

Ok, so far the 3 topics running through my mind lately. How do others feel on these topics? Is this all old news and already sorted? 

 

 

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I can't say whether this is old news or already sorted--I'm following DU but I'm not on the forums too much.

 

Great topics though. Here are a few of my thoughts on the subjects--

 

Travel

I like the idea of travel being slow, but I wouldn't expect NQ to implement a 12 hour travel time between solar systems. I could imagine it taking 3-5 hours between systems, but that's a complete guess. Obviously, this will be dependent on the speed your traveling, which is likely to rely on the type of tech/ship you are flying. 

 

Regarding stargates--I understand your position on not wanting them in the game, but I don't think that's the answer. NQ needs to cater to the masses, and people want to be able to travel to different areas of the game without signing up for a 5 hour excursion. Nothing to fret over though--we are not likely to see these in games for at least many months upon release. Hell, I doubt NQ will even have the features designed/implemented upon release. It will take time for people to build the technology on Alioth, let alone travel to another system to link the two together. I'm hopeful that NQ will spend some time balances stargates when the time comes. I doubt they want them to only be dominated by a single org.

 

Big Ships

Couldn't have said it better. While there will need to be empty space to house cargo, they should certainly be filled with equipment. Having prerequisites for certain equipment, or safeguards against damage/malfunctions via installation of backup/complimentary equipment is a great idea to "fill" a space ship. That being said--they shouldn't be filled for the sake of being filled. Everything should have a reason, and the various pieces/types of equipment should be scaled/proportionate compared to the ship as a whole.

 

Blueprints

Sorry to burst your bubble, but don't expect blueprints to go anywhere. I understand your concerns regarding certain designs becoming the "go-to" for the planet, but that's merely one of the results of a crafting/manufacturing system them puts the control in the player's hands. Hell--if someone makes a "perfect ship", why shouldn't it be the go-to for the planet? That's a function of the player-made economy. There will always be people that will make their own ships, even if it's a minor variation from the norm. 

 

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Well, here are my thoughts on these subjects:

 

Travel

Bigger ships should and naturally are slower than smaller ships.  So if you are hauling something in a freighter, you are flying a carrier full of fighters, or you have a large war ship (maybe battleship size, but there is also capital ships and super-capital ships, and maybe even titans) which are so much bigger than a frigate, or even a small fighter craft.  These extremely large ships would turn slowly and not be as maneuverable as small fighter craft, so naturally they should be slower.  Having large ships like this are also meant to travel farther.  There is fuel in the game as it was discussed in development blogs and with this mechanic, smaller craft will not be able to hold as much fuel as larger vessels which would prevent them from flying from one end of the galaxy to the other in a couple of hours.  As they would either need to stay somewhat close to a carrier type ship for refueling (these fighters would be more of an escort as well for larger ships) and if they are not escorting some larger ship they may need to stop frequently on a planet or space station to refuel.  This will slow the over all travel time of smaller ships, but these smaller ships are also not carrying massive amount of resources and supplies needed to sustain any alliance in deep space, and hence the need for larger, much slower ships.  Overall I agree that travel should take some time, but you also have to realize that in Eve, you warp everywhere.  If there's just gates with no warp technology, it will take you a considerable amount of time to fly from a planet or station, to the gate, then to the next gate and then to the next.  Perhaps the overall warp speed should be slowed down to something that will not be 2-3 minuets of flight time, but more so of like 10-20 minuets to reach the gate from a station or planet, and maybe something like 30-40 from gate to gate travel.  This also depends on distances between objects as well.  It shouldn't take as long to fly from a planet to a gate if they are within a reasonable distance from each other, but if the planet is on the other side of the system from the gate, then obviously it will take much longer to get to that gate.  Which would also brings up if gates and or stations will be stationary objects or if they will have orbit around the central star like the planets.  If this is the case, it would vary the distance and therefore the travel time to get from a station or planet to the gate and also gate to gate travel would vary as they may pass close to each other in orbit.  I think having orbiting gates and stations like this would add and change travel quite considerably and would bring a whole new level of navigating and route plotting to the game.

 

Big Ships

My previous part about travel is linked to this topic as well.  In order for these larger ships to travel at a decent pace, they will need a lot of thrusters which would burn up a lot of fuel, so there would need to be considerable amount of space being taken up by fuel tanks.  You had mentioned you played Space Engineers.  There is hydrogen fuel in that game, so if all you had were thrusters which used hydrogen fuel (no ion thrusters), then you would use up a lot of interior space for the hydrogen fuel tanks so you can make it from one planet to the next without running out of fuel.  I feel the same would be quite applicable to these larger ships.  You are going to need space for these large or even extra large fuel tanks, and these large or extra large thrusters (I'm not sure how big they plan to make these things).  You will also need a decant amount of these items to move these large battleships and capital ships which will also take up quite a bit of room I would imagine.  Plus you have the interior components as well such as the shields, engine/core, and all the other equipment mentioned before.  Hallways are also not going to be small.  The size of the doors and hallways I saw from the dev video where they were assembling the ship on the asteroid was not super tiny, and it didn't look like there was a whole lot of hallway space they were actually putting in.  I would say that ship might be considered frigate size, but that would also depend on the size to class ratio being used.  I feel as though a good ship design would have the adequate amount of equipment and hallways (empty space), but also take into consideration that the equipment needs to be separated and therefore would need the adequate amount of surrounding protection and space it needs.  Designing a ship based on looks with no real purpose is going to have a lot of this empty space because it's more for looks and not function where as a ship designed around function would take some design skills to look good, and adding that next level of out-of-game skill level some players will not have thus increasing the market value of these well designed functional ships.

 

Blueprints

As with before, this topic flows from the last as these well designed functional ships will be the most sought after prize by other players.  Other players will want to buy the ship so the owner would need a blueprint of the original to make more.  I do not think blueprints should be sold on the market though, or purchasing a blueprint from the market is obviously (and I hope it is obvious) not going to be the best you could build on your own.  After spending a considerable amount of time designing and building a well designed functional ship, I would not even consider selling my blueprint to someone else because they wouldn't understand the value of it, and if I did put the blueprint on the market, the price I would sell it for would seam astronomical to someone else because they would not understand the value behind it unless they were a designer/builder in which case, they would have their own design and not want to sell their blueprint.  Companies do this in the real world.  They do not sell their designs to other companies, they sell the products made by these designs and keep the designs secret within the company.  Hence why there are Non-Disclosure Agreements companies make you sign and agree to saying that you will not go selling or giving out company secrets.  To sell a blueprint you made on the open market really isn't good business, and in fact is probably the worst thing you could do for yourself, because instead of making money off of that blueprint by manufacturing these ships for other players, you just handed them the prints to make as many of them as they want.  If an alliance has a well designed and functional ship, then of course they are going to make loads of money because (assuming they have the man-power to pull in resources, build these ships) then they would sell them on the market for profit.  Again, going back to the business plan which the alliance may have set up already before the game even launches.

 

Conclusion

In conclusion, these are just some of the thoughts racing through my head after reading this, and I hope this has, at least, made others think deeper into how they want to play the game.  I know I often think of these things and how I plan on playing the game.  Overall, good topic, and I hope we hear more feedback on these topics.

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Cool, have a like!

 

Travel

Regarding stargates: there probably won't be stargates on release. We'll have our system and... was it 12 planets plus moons or celestial bodies including moons? This is from memory and I'm not sure. As I understood it there might be stargates in a later addon, when players have put a crazy amount of time into exploration and expansion. Maybe at that time a stargate will be more like a gate connecting two different worlds? Maybe an option to make room for new players to experience again, what old players experienced when dropping with the Arkship?

 

But I want to stress that this is just wildfire guessing. I think, given the starting planets, there will be so much space to build and discover that your concerns regarding such progressions might not really apply in the end. Planets alone might be so far apart that your main concern is to pack enough fuel.

 

I share your concerns regarding EVE-likeness - I didn't leave EVE because there were too few flowers, but because the game design itself favored certain economic and social developments I really didn't enjoy. I very much hope that DU will give just as much reason and chance to successfully play in a smaller, "family-clan-like" guild (or the often mentioned hermit on asteroid ME-772-6A in field G53-CTN ;)) as it does to organize in huge numbers.

 

If it ever gets crowded to a point where smaller groups can't really enjoy the game anymore, stargates might(!?) be the way out to let these people thrive in a new system full of possibilities. No idea - maybe the amount you can carry with you will be limited as you travel through a stargate? What's their diameter anyways? I'd say: don't fret - we shall c - waaay to go :)

 

Big ships

Kinda like that one! With exceptions: shield generators should not explode by overloading. Anyone designing such a device would incorporate appropriate countermeasures to power off the element before it becomes the nuke in your bathtub. Having a security device to be a major security risk feels wrong... let them fail and add a cool-down when they overcharge/overheat - that even adds a time window to destroy the generator and if that happens, yeah, boom, a bit, okay. Apart from that: there are better elements you could let explode and cause havoc - like fusion generators or fuel tanks perhaps?

 

Shield size and shield discs: means you'd need more development to go into disc orientation - or sacrifice design options by having players mount shield generators in a certain orientation. The idea is nice however and I think you can achieve it by having shield generators create a bubble that is just limited in size. You'd still need to place multiple of them - but the orientation doesn't matter, no need to set disc location. Downside: super-sized battlecruiser shields would look like grapes, so maybe shields could "merge" to one big surface and get holes when generators in a certain location overload/overheat. Are shields planned anyways? Idktbh, hehe.

 

Anyhow, I like to think of shield generators as "translucent copy of the ship" (or like hull polarization) with a scale factor of 1.05 or 1.1, so the shield is like an extrusion from the ships hull. Also feels like this could be simple to realize regarding development - not sure tho. To get full coverage of this extrusion (and have multiple generators+equipment), shield generators could have a limited area of effect to produce said "hull overlay". The outcome would be the same and solve your issue just as well... what do you think? Feels good?

 

<edit type="ps">

Regarding shield bubble size: could configure shield generators through LUA to create an elliptic bubble to better fit an area or increase the size while reducing the total strength. Freighters that don't want 20 shield generators could use a single one in the center and modulate the shield to be large, but a bit weak - then add an additional shield around the engines... etcpp... could go on forever with stuff like this. Only question is: "What possibilities or limits will there be?"

</edit>

 

Blueprints

Again, I agree with your concerns, but I don't see the blueprints being the source of afeared symptoms. First: people will want to build their own designs and fly them. Second: some affordable VW Käfer for the masses ain't too bad. Third: the real issue would be if every voxel adds a considerable amount of mass, so designers opt-out from design, in favor to crate flying cores with everything attached directly to the core first and thenceforth to the already added elements.

 

I sincerely hope we may use plastic (or something else that is almost irrelevant to structure and mass) that we can use to optimize the looks of our ships, after we've built the necessary supportive and rigid structure/backbone to hold and protect our elements. This way there might be the one layout/backbone that all use as reference to build a mass- and performance-optimized ship/plane/glider (for a certain task) - but on the outside there will be many different surface designs made in plastic, carbon, aluminum sheets. As cars drive on the road, all having wheels, windows, seats and catalysts nowadays - but there are uncountable forms, colors, sounds, sizes and designs too.

 

Let them blueprint and mass-produce. Once everyone got a VW Käfer, people will opt for their individual design - let alone to stick out of the mass - and then crash their old vehicle at the destruction derby. #edprotestgoat is gonna ram you anyways! (we definitely should do that... srsly)

 

We need freedom in design - the option to add vanity to our constructs, without compromising performance, integrity or mass. Then all will be good :)

 

By the way: nobody keeps you from err... "copying" a design by hand. Meaning to build something similar and blueprint it. But I really doubt that will be an issue, because I believe people want to diverse.

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Stargates: Stargates will take lots of resources to set up so expansion will likely be slos.

 

Big ships should br better then small ones since they can carry more fuel and therefore can accelerate for longer periods of time, allowing them to go faster.

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8 hours ago, vertex said:

 

Anyhow, I like to think of shield generators as "translucent copy of the ship" (or like hull polarization) with a scale factor of 1.05 or 1.1, so the shield is like an extrusion from the ships hull. Also feels like this could be simple to realize regarding development - not sure tho. To get full coverage of this extrusion (and have multiple generators+equipment), shield generators could have a limited area of effect to produce said "hull overlay". The outcome would be the same and solve your issue just as well... what do you think? Feels good?

 

 

I like the scalefactor Idea, and it is easy to combine with the limited size idea: just make the shield generators produce a 'layer' on the outside of the ship (form factor 1.05 or 1.1 sounds good to me), but with a limited range. So you need multiple rooms with shield generators and supporting equipment if you want to shield a big ship.

 

I still think overloaded shield generators should explode, but I do not mean nuke-size. Just enough to destroy equipment in the surrounding area: so if you want a robust ship, you need strong bulkheads and some armor on the inside. Also, the shield generator is just an example: there should be lots of supporting equipment in all areas. (and imagine how cool it looks on the outside if you overload a shield: explosion blowing out, the battleship still in good fighting shape, but with a vulnerable hole in the side. Rolling the ship can help compensate)

In the end all of this is just an excuse to make a big battleship not just a big hollow shape that only looks good on the outside.

I want to walk through the maintenance tunnels and be amazed about room after room of weapon support bays, defense turret support installations, control rooms, backup power facilities, shield rooms, damage control centers etc.

It will also make building a big ship HARD. It should not just be a race about who can grind the most resources, but also a design challenge. I like a design challange :)

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4 hours ago, Emma Roid said:

I like the scalefactor Idea, and it is easy to combine with the limited size idea: just make the shield generators produce a 'layer' on the outside of the ship (form factor 1.05 or 1.1 sounds good to me), but with a limited range. So you need multiple rooms with shield generators and supporting equipment if you want to shield a big ship.

 

Yep, exactly :) I imagine the first officer announcing "Enemy at 4 - lost our primary starboard shield - turn 120 to port - ready banks and welcome charlie at 7." (lol)

 

Could you go into detail about what you consider an "overcharged/overloaded" shield generator, please? It sounds as if one would have the option to "not overload" it and be safe from such explosions? I might agree to the option of boosting the shields with the downside that failure implies extra damage - but as long as a shield generator operates within default parameters, it should not cause an additional risk for reasons: 1. it negates the very idea of having a shield in the first place and 2. you'd be better off just filling the room with one layer of armor over the other, because a: armor doesn't explode, b: still provides protection and c: would probably be way cheaper anyways.

 

Building armor on the inside of your ship may be a good idea in case you sustain heavy damage on the outer layer (shield corridors) but that armor should be like a drivers' capsule (safety cage?) - not a container for dangerous equipment that you just installed to protect yourself. Exploding security measures are like holding a gun to your head announcing "You can't shoot me, because I'll shoot me first!" ... :lol:

 

If, through tactical reasoning, you decide to overcharge a shield because you being at 10% shield and your enemy down to 15% hull, you could finish him without taking damage if your shield holds an additional 10%... fine. But other than that (at least to me) it really doesn't make sense. I'd rather introduce shield balancers to distribute load between different generators at the cost of (again) added weight and an overall tactical disatvantage to weaken your entire shield compared to just an area of it that you could turn away from the enemy once it breaks. Balancing loads between shields could even become a player role.

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Would build armor make the ship heavier, and therefore slower? Also, on a giant ship I noticed that you need like 5 pilots and the rest of the people are manning turrets. I found also, if you have an extremely large ship, it could act as an aircraft carrier, storage, or energy storage. In DU there seems to be no problem with Cast quantities of space within a ship. Comment on @0something0: bigger ships will also have mass, which means the will take a longer time to accelerate. This means travel may actually take longer. 

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Here is my opinion as well:

 

Travel:

12 hours traveltime would be a lot of dead time. I heard there are people in EVE who like to suck look 8 hours a day on a asteroid, but I dont think it would be fun.

The only way to avoid being bored are multi acc as it happens in EVE.

 

Big ships:

I agree

 

Blueprints:

There will never be "the perfekt design". Every organisation would want to have there own unique design/scout/etc. and there are a lot of people who want to build there own ideas.

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On 10.10.2017 at 9:32 PM, 0something0 said:

@Primary Mind you, small ships just din't have the fuel to reach higher speeds.

I cant see your point. How fast do you think can those carts drive, how many fuels do they have?

Speed is not the point but distance

Kart.jpg

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Blueprints:

 

Designing Blueprints is a critical part in the economy. At one side it is not logically that a blueprint will be vanished once the item is crafted, on the other side we can argument that a copy of a BP is more licence to use the original BP x-times. The creator of the BP may use it unlimited but cannot copy the BP unlimited, the number of copy shall depend on his skills.

A stable economy need a lot of players and a lot of specialization. Is it too easy for everybody to build everything then no one has to trade. Building items should not be that easy too. Is the market flooded with to many items, then crafter cannot build them with profit, then miner can't sell their materials with profit and wars become to cheap because ships are too easy to get.

 

A simple way could be time: crafting needs time, the preparation of material needs time, etc. It should not get boring ofc, but there should be a difference between better and weaker tiers. Having better skills leads to better crafting results or higher item-quality or better crafting stations (fabrics?, programmable robots?) 

 

I have seen it in different MMOs that getting up a vital economy is the one of the hardest part for the developers. 

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Just in regards to travel, I am a huge fan of taking a longer time to travel to various locations. That being said I would feel the need to ask for some supporting systems that can be added, such as autopilot.

 

I think having faster ship engines is fine - you just have to put some severe limits on the fuel source. Imagine if you reverse scale the speed/consumption ratio. For instance if basic (lowest) engine take 1 unit of fuel : 1 AU of travel, the next faster version will take 3 units of fuel to travel 1.2 AU. Then you could also introduce much rarer fuel types in the future, that would help build the market even further.

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Stargates should consume energy to transport ships based on the distance traveled and the mass of the ship, so a huge corporation displacing their whole fleet would have to dish out some serious dough, while a small band of friends could still travel through the universe fairly fast and cheap.

 

Additionally to cost, there could be a queue system at stargates with different lanes, so that ships with smaller mass get processed faster than larger ships.

 

And lastly the construction of stargates could require rare resources that the devs can control the available amount of, so that only few stargates will ever be built and thus only connect a few main routes.

 

Another idea could be one-way jump beacons. You drop a beacon somewhere, and can later establish a wormhole to that point. This would mean that only returning would be fast (but maybe still costly, depending on the mass of the ship and the jump distance), but to head out into an unknown region of space for the first time would take a while. Could also introduce an interesting mechanic in that other players could try to find other people's jump beacons, and either destroy them or set up an ambush at that location.

 

Also you can't say absolutely that large ships can accelerate faster than small ships, or that they can reach higher speeds. The former only depends on the relation of their thruster output to ship mass and the latter on the relation between fuel carried and ship mass. It is hard to say if a larger ship would have a larger fuel tank compared to it's relative mass, because everything else also has to scale up (you need more gun mounts for defense, more mass dedicated to structural integrity, a larger shield generator, maybe even emergency pods and scout ships, etc.).

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@Oije

The kart is a wrong representation of the fuel consumption, mainly due to the lack of space fiction allowing you to maintain velocity without impulse and so dont have to worry about being able tonoush itslef. Besides, they have to refill every couple laps. 

 

@zagibu while a lot of subsystems scale by surface area, fuel scales up by volume, so due to the square cubed  law,  fuel increase much faster then most other subsystem mass.

 

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I concur about blueprints being limited runs, and also you should not be able to make a blueprint off something built from a blueprint.

 

Just because you can follow a blueprint to make something doesn't mean you can make a blueprint from something you built following one.

 

This will let Blueprint become commodities and establish Artisans for the economy.

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3 minutes ago, Archaegeo said:

I concur about blueprints being limited runs, and also you should not be able to make a blueprint off something built from a blueprint.

 

Just because you can follow a blueprint to make something doesn't mean you can make a blueprint from something you built following one.

 

This will let Blueprint become commodities and establish Artisans for the economy.

Dont be worry, NQ have confirm they will make the construct which make from a blueprint wont be able to create a blueprint.

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