SABOTAGE and ESPIONAGE

[GunDeva]

Hello I came across something interesting I thought I would share. This will be a great topic and possibly tactics used by some organizations. There will probably be some people new to MMO ( massive multimedia online ) games or games that use a player based economy ! When it comes to sabotage and espionage the best ways to counter these tactics is to understand them and then plan accordingly with you countermeasures. I will use  definitions to make it simple and straight to the point. I have played many types of games and with different organizations and thought this might help some people learn something new and plan a head for safety measures within you organizations. As Dual Universe becomes more popular you could have organizations with thousands of players! 

 

ESPIONAGE :

1.

the act or practice of spying.

2.

the use of spies by a government to discover the military and political secrets of other nations.

3.

the use of spies by a corporation or the like to acquire the plans, technical knowledge, etc., of a competitor

 

SABOTAGE : 

1.

any underhand interference with production, work, etc., in a plant, factory, etc., as by enemy agents during wartime or by employees during a trade dispute.

2.

any undermining of a cause.

verb (used with object), sabotaged, sabotaging.

3.

to injure or attack by sabotage

 

I played EVE for over a year and now I am kind of a on and off player over the years ! EVE is a good game and I am just using this as my example of SABOTAGE and ESPIONAGE inside a game . The simple lesson from this is they gave one person way too much power! Someone how was not the founder of the organization and then after a argument things went bad! 

 

As I said this should be a good discussion on how to prevent this from happening in Dual Universe and for people to think on tactics in a player based economy game ! So I will start with this as I listen to a little theme music :  Beastie Boys - sabotage     ?

[Astrophil]

Welcome to like 90% of the action here in Dual Universe. The meta-game that has developed (I say meta-game, I don't really consider it such) is one that is unprecedented in a game that has yet to be released. We've already witnessed the rise and fall of organizations, the fracturing of others, and continually more organizations are added to the roster every day. I would take a look at DUSleepers.fr , Cinderfall TV, GLSU's Q-Cast, and Kurock's State of Affairs on Outpost Zebra to see just some of the major action that's been happening. Other subjects to explore would be: Terran Union, The Eldritch Nation/Order, Unity League, Cinderfall Syndicate, Vanguard, to name a few. 

 

Happy sabotaging!

[TheBlender]

*Activates quiet blend* 

 

But in all seriousness I'm glad I've  worked in the Intel field, else I'd feel like I'm walking into a meta & espionage nightmare. 

 

I fully suspect that there will be a "great filter" for organisations because of this meta 

Edited September 25, 2017 by TheBlender
Corrected word

[Warden]

It's somewhat amusing or ironic but I suspect that each time a thread is created about this topic, it might rather make it worse. How so?

 

Even if your base intent is defense (against it), it will likely generally alert people to the topic. Adding grand stories from other games might probably amaze or encourage people further and those who already know about it... well, simply do. 

 

The gist of it - and my "Illuminati / Shadow Broker" friends from another realm (game) tend to agree with me on that - is that there is no defense against it. 

 

Let me rephrase that: There is no full safety measure that gives you 100% protection once you start publicly recruiting for your organization.

You can only try to lower the risks but it cannot be fully prevented. Someone does not even have to formally get into the group to do it and someone you consider trusted and who was trusted could become fed up and turn on you. 

 

If you break it down it kinda turns into the old "freedom vs. security" debate if you consider applying certain measures. 

 

In the end it's more about damage control, I think. 

 

I also doubt people will truly put all of their cards on the table here. The downside of publicly discussing all kinds of potential defensive measures might help some; but the "others in question" simply get tips on how to improve or what (mistakes) to avoid.

 

At the end of the day, "the game" will be part of this game due to how DU is set up. 

[blazemonger]

 

It is only a matter of time before someone pulling a stunt in EVE gets a RL backlash and may potentially get hurt. I really hope NQ will clearly set boundries as the latest EVE betrayal went way over the line IMO with serious and lasting damage done to so many players. The person who caused all this walks away without any sort of consequence or risk and in fact gets the protection of CCP. He also is allowed to stay on  the player representing council while proven to have been using this RL group to setup and manipulate in game events.

 

The guy should get a perma ban or at least be kicked off of the council. The "It's only a game" or "it's EVE, these things happen" do no apply here as far as I am concerned. I would be surprised to see him at EVE Vegas next week, even while I know he had the intention to attend.

[wizardoftrash]

I honestly don't think this is going to be as much of an issue as it looks like it might.

 

For one, the game isn't really even up yet at all. It'll be months at least before we can transition into any kind of beta, which means only a slice of the player basis will be hands-on with the software, and there will be nothing really worth stealing until the full release unless there is a way to reverse-engineer a blueprint that can be saved in a wipe-proof way (for now we have an idea that your character will get to keep long-term construct data on anything you built, but unless its turned into a physical item, it cannot be stolen or copied). During that time period, people will really just be building and exploring, since there would be no way to accumulate wealth.

 

Once beta hits, there will be more actual gameplay in the mix, but no real way to accumulate wealth that'll matter in the full release. Wealth in the Beta will matter strictly insofar as it allows you more access to travel and material for testing designs, since designs are the only thing that will follow you to release. Having an org for the purpose of producing designs that can be used in the full release will be the most valid org for people looking forward, however orgs dedicated to pvp and raiding might get some play during beta as soon as weapons are implemented.

 

By the time we are through all this, the people who are talking up a storm on the forums and messing up each-others orgs on the community page (which might not even have any function at all in the full game, since an in-game system might replace it completely), they will probably lose interest.

 

I suspect most of them (and again by "them" i mean people who want to commit corperate espionage in a game) will lose interest when they find out that DU is really actually very different from eve. The player basis will be smaller, producing items and making money will be much much slower (as there will be limits on how much actual currency will be circulating because of the temporary nature of the merchant npc's). The largest orgs might not have enough org-specifically allocated resources to make this process worth it.

 

DU isn't EVE, the similarities are almost strictly that its a sub-based scifi with a sellable subscription item. The two games play so drastically differently that the target audiences will have much less overlap than you'd think.

[Warden]

The thing about this is that it is pretty much universal at its core however and then also broad. 

 

I would not solely or purely look at it from a materialistic standpoint (what you can steal or not). 

 

In short, there can be more to it and we will see our fair share of this in DU. The setting already encourages it. 

 

This will make or break organizations or alliances and should not be taken lightly overall. At the same time I don't want to be dramatic about it, but it is still not a minor factor.

[GunDeva]

18 hours ago, GunDeva said:

I am just using this as my example of SABOTAGE and ESPIONAGE inside a game

I know some people might get upset if you compare games so that's why when I wrote this. To tell the truth no one can say with 100% without a drought  that if someone in your organization had that much power and then had bad feeling about the organization or there leader might not try this or maybe they got greed and sold out.

 

My simple point is that you may not want to give one person in your organization that much power where they could destroy it in one day!

 

This may not effect smaller organization  if the creator handles most of the primary organization functions themselves seeing that the organization is small but that might be impossible and too much for someone leading a organization of thousands. Also  people with little game time because of you life responsibilities  might need others to manage functions inside your organization even if your group is small due to your time restraints.

 

BALANCE OF POWER : There or several ways anyone creating a organization can do this as they feel what will work for them and there organization. Personally here or a few I want to try and your ideas maybe different.

1. Members will be able to vote on important organizations discussions simply because personally I don't want to run a dictatorship and also let members know that there vote counts for something.

2. Set up a board of members like a round table and each member of the board will be in charge of a solar system and all organization functions within that system. They will be able to  set up a administration or assistance  team if they feel its too difficult to run alone.

3. Each member in charge of a solar system will receive a allotment based on the upkeep and projects being built in that system.

 

These or three things I want to try and if it doesn't work I guess I could always make changes  but I wanted  to go with a open commerce theme and give members as much freedom as possible and the ability to vote without being a great risk to the organization but nothing is 100% right.

 

 

 

[Lethys]

Well I hope we see such things in DU. Would be boring if people wouldn't need to pay attention to whom they give what right. 

 

And yes, it's a game. People who get mad about that in rl shouldn't really play imho, but that's another story. 

 

You can defend yourself pretty effectively against such things, you only need the proper setup and brain in order to do it.

 

I awoxed myself and it was thrilling and exciting. Weeks after the heist those guys needed help. And I came to fight by their side. We're killing each other on day x and rescue us on day y. That's eve and I hope for that on DU too

[wizardoftrash]

21 minutes ago, Lethys said:

You can defend yourself pretty effectively against such things, you only need the proper setup and brain in order to do it.

Pretty much this. Apart from someone stealing the Legate's actual login credentials (which would be a ban-worthy offense), the only real way for an org to lose something of tremendous value is for the legate to actually surrender the goods, or for claimed tiles to be physically attacked (TU destroyed, and construct cores tunneled-to and destroyed).

 

If someone is running a democratic org, then I guess the org could get Trumped (where someone tricks people into voting for them, and then actively erodes the org from the top). A military org could suffer from a coup (where a higher-up commander sabotages a tile, destroying a TU and core from within permission'ed areas).

 

But really the smart way to go is to be the single legate with permission on the structures guarding TU's, and guarding key structure cores, and distribute permissions to other facilities accordingly. Split up treasuries, and divy-up the rights to use those treasuries across several trusted members. Maybe even only play with people you know IRL, or elect only people you know IRL to high positions.There are plenty of mostly low-risk ways to avoid some of this stuff.

 

 

I do think though that there is plenty of room for major thefts and security breeches due to cyber warfare in-game. I'm talking character-based hacking and stealth skills, hacking implements, EMP weapons, ID scramblers (to behave anonymously) and ID spoofers (so that you can act with permissions from another specific player). If these implements are in the game, then the org-infiltration espionage and corporate espionage is not necessary for large heists.

[TheBlender]

2 hours ago, wizardoftrash said:

If someone is running a democratic org, then I guess the org could get Trumped (where someone tricks people into voting for them, and then actively erodes the org from the top).

[Warden]

If said org has no notable or effective safeguards, them that is bad luck or natural selection I suppose. 

 

The theoretical disadvantage is that through maneuvering, enemies can essentially vote themselves into office or get there somehow.

 

In reality there are more safeguards than online where you can't look into people's heads. Not like you can into reality, but there is more (personal) distance to everything. Some things are easier to do. 

 

This is where founder-led orgs "might" be slightly safer, as those will hardly sabotage themselves, not counting potential personal incompetence of course. Those cases also exist, I see plenty of it in the SC community. 

 

But that is just an opinion that assumes very basic cases. In the end, it can work or go wrong either way. And at the end of the day, nothing offers 100% safety. 

 

Besides perhaps not recruiting publicly at all or only letting in very close online friends you have known for years across games or only those you know in person. That, in turn, doesn't allow for much competitive growth however, in most cases. 

 

All a risk vs. reward thing. 

[blazemonger]

Infiltrating an org, then stealing the loot chest or the expensive ships is one thing, selling the entire hanger to the enemy including all personal belongings of any member in the hanger is something else.

 

The last sellout and betrayal by The Judge (because he did not like the way the CEO choose to lead the alliance) is just way over the line and should see strong action from the game developer to clearly set the boundary of what does or does not go.

 

The story of one guy infiltrating a group in EVE who like to fly _very_ expensive ships available in very limited numbers (and share them between each other in the group) only to steal one of the ships once he got his hands on it was top notch and deserved a special medal for outstanding game play IMO.. Another example was a player infiltrating a corp in EVE, then while on mining deployment he lit a cyno to warp in his actual buddies who wiped out the (expensive) mining fleet.

[Lethys]

3 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Infiltrating an org, then stealing the loot chest or the expensive ships is one thing, selling the entire hanger to the enemy including all personal belongings of any member in the hanger is something else.

 

The last sellout and betrayal by The Judge (because he did not like the way the CEO choose to lead the alliance) is just way over the line and should see strong action from the game developer to clearly set the boundary of what does or does not go.

 

The story of one guy infiltrating a group in EVE who like to fly _very_ expensive ships available in very limited numbers (and share them between each other in the group) only to steal one of the ships once he got his hands on it was top notch and deserved a special medal for outstanding game play IMO.. Another example was a player infiltrating a corp in EVE, then while on mining deployment he lit a cyno to warp in his actual buddies who wiped out the (expensive) mining fleet.

I disagree.

 

Risk vs. Reward. It's way easier in EVE to do stuff like that because the RDMS there is shit. But even if it's done in DU, then the CEO is to blame because he didn't put enough thought into safety and how to prevent awoxing.