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Automated Weapons Systems

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I'd heard automated weapons systems will be a thing in future though I've heard it will be very limited to base defense and almost unpractical and i really want to get a better picture or rather have a better understanding on how that works. Because the worry i have that i feel automated weapons is really the only way to counter it. That worry being. Say you build up a base in a PVP zone you have ships and so on right? your there for some good ol PVP. Then you log off. And then some random guy who happens to be online at that point with his little fighter comes and wrecks everything will little to no opposition due to the owners of this base are offline.

Even as a way to prevent people from Spying on you while your not around or when a large battle group attacks when only a hand full are around. 

I get that we don't want automated turrets to be the way to go for any engagement and we want People fighting people ideally but i feel that automated defenses should have at least some potency against people and small ships at the very least. Something that can at least deal with small numbers or small things. But i'd like to hear others thoughts

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I'm guessing that's what the intention is, to make it difficult for solo players to just go wrecking people's stuff while they are offline. But you will still need shield to be able to protect your stuff from large groups.

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22 minutes ago, Haunty said:

I'm guessing that's what the intention is, to make it difficult for solo players to just go wrecking people's stuff while they are offline. But you will still need shield to be able to protect your stuff from large groups.

 Not only that but with organizations being large and small most wanting to be their own faction controlling territories it can also act as a defense that doesn't necessarily win a battle but holds the enemy at bay for reinforcements if these factions end up controlling large areas. - true Shielding or stronger shielding can work the same method but as the attacker whats more fun? Attacking a shield or attacking something that can shoot back?

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I am all for automatic defenses for various readons. Giving advantages to defenders and bases. Allowing territory controll.

 

DU can also take inspiration from other games with years of experience. For example EVE online. One way of defending of structures are vulnerability windows dependent on structure size. Idea is that the structure is invulnerable except for defined time intervals. Like this the owner of the structure has to choose a time when they are vulnerable but at times they like. Avoiding the situation that the owners base will be taken just because everyone was offline. As the station gets bigger also the vulnerability window does.

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I think the Dev's are on the right track with having bases with some automation  defenses where ships will have to be manned at each weapons system. Most people have touched on good reasons why the Dev's probably did that and I agree but automated ships I don't like the idea because there or too many ways people can exploit the system and griefers would love that! One person controlling dozens of gun/cannons should never happen and will kill the game for most people! Not too mention its a sandbox mmo and not a one person shooter , so if you need more crew to man the weapons and other system you cold always hire a crew which could be fun and add to the game economy as one of many jobs to fill and get paid for.

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The way eve did it with citadels (only vulnerable in a certain time window at certain times) is just plain boring and bad. 

1) because then your shield of the territory tile is nearly unconquerable. You clearly choose that timeframe to be in your high time, so there may be thousands of your org online thus making it very hard to attack it

2) you have a nearly indestructible base of operations nearby and when you're killed you can just come back again. You could just escalate the whole thing forever

 

A shield with a timer of let's say max 48h (and the attacker doesn't know how long this will be until he attacks) creates a better dynamic. Orgs will set it to their hightimes too, true, but you could aattack it midweek or at a time when you know (Intel!) There aren't as many ppl online as on weekends for example.

 

 

Automated defenses should only be able to defend against solo or small gangs, but never against an invading force. Combine this with shields and you are pretty safe, at least for 48h

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The biggest issue with automated weapons systems, is that the dev's in one of their videos said they wont work unless you are near your base. If you are too far away, on another planet, or worse, offline, your automated defenses will not work to defend you in any way shape or form. Leaving your base completely defenseless when you are offline.

The exact quote was that "the scripting runs player side not server side, and as such scripted defenses only work when you are close enough for them to work." Sure, this is great for guilds, as all you need is one player inside the base or near it for it to defend itself, otherwise for smaller groups or solo players, they are completely vulnerable. This needs to be fixed. Any defenses need to be set while offline. Defenses shouldn't be permanent in the sense of they can run out of ammo, or in case of shields, run out of power. This would make raiding more dynamic and also help solo players and smaller groups. But those defenses have to run 24/7 to be fair. I could just imagine spending a lot of time to build a base in a pvp zone because I like pvp, but then the enemy having an unfair advantage as they just wait until I am offline to attack when my defenses are, defenseless....

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In real life, 1 person could theoratically control  1000s of guns at 1 time thanks to them being all hooked up to 1 i/o panel.  Will it be practical? No.  I think the best way to handle ship turrets is to have 1 person be able to point a set of turrets only in 1 direction, and things like heat management, power outages, etc have to be delt with. So, as the numberof guns increase, the person's job gets harder. This isnt WWII with all the bomber turrets controled by people manually.

 

I also wanted to bring up CIWS/AGEIS weapons system for shooting down projectile fire. Obviously, the job will be simple(shoot down whatever comes close), but is easier said then done. And since weapons fire (usually) don't have armour on them, low-power lasers that cant damage hull will be used.

 

 

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On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 6:03 PM, namco said:

The biggest issue with automated weapons systems, is that the dev's in one of their videos said they wont work unless you are near your base. If you are too far away, on another planet, or worse, offline, your automated defenses will not work to defend you in any way shape or form. Leaving your base completely defenseless when you are offline.

The exact quote was that "the scripting runs player side not server side, and as such scripted defenses only work when you are close enough for them to work." Sure, this is great for guilds, as all you need is one player inside the base or near it for it to defend itself, otherwise for smaller groups or solo players, they are completely vulnerable. This needs to be fixed. Any defenses need to be set while offline. Defenses shouldn't be permanent in the sense of they can run out of ammo, or in case of shields, run out of power. This would make raiding more dynamic and also help solo players and smaller groups. But those defenses have to run 24/7 to be fair. I could just imagine spending a lot of time to build a base in a pvp zone because I like pvp, but then the enemy having an unfair advantage as they just wait until I am offline to attack when my defenses are, defenseless....

perhaps the game will run like Black Desert Online, where there is a low impact afk mode? You would risk being killed easily but you could log out at a weapon terminal or a prefab made specifically for it. Sort of like mob spawning minecart machines in minecraft or afk training horses in black desert. 

 

I feel like automated offline defenses are going to be more fair than automated offline offensive. having a charged shield or a locked down mode. Perhaps before you log off you have to lower blast doors and recharge shields and deploy mines and whatnot. 

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On 24/10/2017 at 3:03 AM, namco said:

The biggest issue with automated weapons systems, is that the dev's in one of their videos said they wont work unless you are near your base. If you are too far away, on another planet, or worse, offline, your automated defenses will not work to defend you in any way shape or form. Leaving your base completely defenseless when you are offline.

The exact quote was that "the scripting runs player side not server side, and as such scripted defenses only work when you are close enough for them to work." Sure, this is great for guilds, as all you need is one player inside the base or near it for it to defend itself, otherwise for smaller groups or solo players, they are completely vulnerable. This needs to be fixed. Any defenses need to be set while offline. Defenses shouldn't be permanent in the sense of they can run out of ammo, or in case of shields, run out of power. This would make raiding more dynamic and also help solo players and smaller groups. But those defenses have to run 24/7 to be fair. I could just imagine spending a lot of time to build a base in a pvp zone because I like pvp, but then the enemy having an unfair advantage as they just wait until I am offline to attack when my defenses are, defenseless....

If automated defences only work while you are online AND close to them, they will basically be useless.

 

I'm quite sure they will not be trivially cheap to build, so why spend precious resources on something that will become a wonderful "target of opportunity" when you're offline ?

 

Why spend hours designing a complex trap system (detectors, force fields, logic elements, etc) if the whole thing becomes inert the moment you leave the area ?

 

On 24/10/2017 at 3:03 AM, namco said:

The exact quote was that "the scripting runs player side not server side, and as such scripted defenses only work when you are close enough for them to work."

If that is in fact true, then even orgs will not benefit from having a random player permanently present in their base, because the scripts will only run when the client that hosts them is online (i.e. scripts will only run when the specific player that created them is online and close to those scripted elements).

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8 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

If automated defences only work while you are online AND close to them, they will basically be useless.

 

I'm quite sure they will not be trivially cheap to build, so why spend precious resources on something that will become a wonderful "target of opportunity" when you're offline ?

 

Why spend hours designing a complex trap system (detectors, force fields, logic elements, etc) if the whole thing becomes inert the moment you leave the area ?

 

If that is in fact true, then even orgs will not benefit from having a random player permanently present in their base, because the scripts will only run when the client that hosts them is online (i.e. scripts will only run when the specific player that created them is online and close to those scripted elements).

No, they said you can pass that script so another person so it works when you are offline, but your org mate is online.

 

They also talked somewhere about the possibility to run those scripts (basic base defense) server side.

 

The only real, 100% guaranteed defense will be the shield - you build turrets to defend your base once that timer runs out, not because you want to chase away people who happen to attack you.

 

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35 minutes ago, Lethys said:

No, they said you can pass that script so another person so it works when you are offline, but your org mate is online.

How ?

 

A script is just an arbitrary block of text until it is associated with a specific element. You can't just email somebody a script and expect it to work, the receiver will need to link that email text to a specific element.

 

Perhaps there could be a list of "operators" defined for each element, which will automatically copy the relevant scripts to their clients, without allowing them to actually program the element ?

 

Who will be the lucky 24 players in each org that have to spend an hour of their daily play time sitting in the base to keep the defences functioning ? :unsure:

 

35 minutes ago, Lethys said:

They also talked somewhere about the possibility to run those scripts (basic base defense) server side.

Frankly, I cannot see how this can be avoided.

Otherwise, automated base defences will only be practical for large orgs that can maintain an online presence 24/7...

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8 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

How ?

 

A script is just an arbitrary block of text until it is associated with a specific element. You can't just email somebody a script and expect it to work, the receiver will need to link that email text to a specific element.

 

Perhaps there could be a list of "operators" defined for each element, which will automatically copy the relevant scripts to their clients, without allowing them to actually program the element ?

 

Who will be the lucky 24 players in each org that have to spend an hour of their daily play time sitting in the base to keep the defences functioning ? :unsure:

 

Frankly, I cannot see how this can be avoided.

Otherwise, automated base defences will only be practical for large orgs that can maintain an online presence 24/7...

No clue how, I'm just stating what nq posted. But I guess they somehow only pass the action (what theI script does) and nit the script itself iirc.

 

Automatic defenses shouldn't be too powerful, otherwise it would be unbalanced again. So even if they can't manage it somehow, they're still viable as I said and not useless as you suggested

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1 minute ago, NanoDot said:

How ?

 

A script is just an arbitrary block of text until it is associated with a specific element. You can't just email somebody a script and expect it to work, the receiver will need to link that email text to a specific element.

 

Perhaps there could be a list of "operators" defined for each element, which will automatically copy the relevant scripts to their clients, without allowing them to actually program the element ?

 

Who will be the lucky players that have to spend an hour of their daily play time sitting in the base to keep the defences functioning ? :unsure:

 

Frankly, I cannot see how this can be avoided.

Otherwise, automated base defences will only be practical for large orgs that can maintain an online presence 24/7...

You seem to think a simple AI takes a lot of processing power... The Devs have said they may add base defenses (base defenses != ship weapons), that can be automaed, i.e. not nmeeding palyers to manually target them. That kind of A.I. does not have to rely on things like pathfinding (it's immobile), itonly has to lock onto a tagrget and try to destroy its Core Unit. Nothing more, than less. Thus, this kind of "turret construct" if you will, can have a very simple logic assocaitd with it for actions.

"Is the target Red? Yes? Shoot it"

Or :

"Is the target Neutral? Yes? Does their ship got Guns? =Scanning Action= No? Don't shoot" (if that's your thing).

That's a very minor thing that can run o nthe servers. You set the parameters, the server simply follwos a very rudimentary logic flowchart. The "crazy"  AI you may think of, works by path-finding and checkpoints and has a lot of processing pwoer tied to it - which is why NQ d oesn't want their game to have PVE, too many compelx AIs ( for challenge and other Carebear crap) take away from processing power that could go towards serving actual players.

Also, scripts, like anything, can be easily stored server-side along with a construct's blueprint and be distributed when accessing the Control Units - PRocedural Generation works on many things, not just 3D enviroments.  The scripts RUN on your machine, they do not actually need to be stored on it, same way you can stream videos on yotube without having to save them on your machine.

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As always the devil is in the details...

 

Nyz's post simply says that NQ will be: 

Giving the ability to players to build some automated defense for their base

but then we also heard elsewhere that:

Quote

"scripted defenses only work when you are close enough for them to work"

This introduces an element of uncertainty regarding just how effective those base defences will be.

 

We'll only know the full extent of the implementation once NQ reveals its final scope.

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6 hours ago, Nebenfigur said:

automated defence doesn't have to be scripted defence.

I still see there or a lot of people that have probably never built booby-traps or mazes for you fortifications or played games where that is the object is to build a strong defense or trap your opponent !  There or a lot of games that have these features or there based around it ! Not going to do the work for you this time so you will have to do some research but all it really takes is a creative mind set and you don't need scripting to achieve it !

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Remember that many of DU's scripts will exist in the elements that NQ release, like cockpits, engines, doors logic elements etc. It may be as simple as adding a players name, or organisations name to the access list of a bases 'defense system logic element' that will activate the system. No need to transfer scripts via email as they would be either run on the server(s) or automatically run on players computer, who is on the base, without them having to know anything about it. Who knows, perhaps the player in such a system is able to manually target the guns improving their speed and accuracy thus both adding to the game play as well as allowing the guns to operate when nobody is actually on/near the base.

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46 minutes ago, 0something0 said:

just remember, in real life,  computers > humans(unless an unexpected situation pops up that the computer is not programmed to deal with). 

Not in DU. Automated systems are handicapped to provide game content for people.  its a game afterall  ;)

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I mean, I imagine humans will be doing most of the management stuff instead of the dirty work (this isnt WWII where bomber turrets had to be manuely controlled) but in the case of automated turrets, the management is already dealt with: hit defined targets.

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Automated base defences will have to provide a "credible" level of defence, otherwise they are useless.

 

A well-designed turret layout (with overlapping fields of fire, etc.) should make the base a "no-go area" for a single raider or two. Even a small group of attackers should have to proceed with some caution, bringing medics, spare ammo, heavy weapons, etc.

 

But that protection should also come with a price tag, be it ammo, power supply needs, high component costs, etc.

 

There's no "free lunch", but there should at least be some lunch...

 

Offline protection will be VERY important in DU, because raiding and robbery will be a very popular activity. It's the only way for pirates and bandits to earn their living, because in DU there are no NPC's to "farm" for easy credits.

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On 25/10/2017 at 2:58 PM, NanoDot said:

As always the devil is in the details...

 

Nyz's post simply says that NQ will be: 

but then we also heard elsewhere that:

This introduces an element of uncertainty regarding just how effective those base defences will be.

 

We'll only know the full extent of the implementation once NQ reveals its final scope.

You are still confusing scripts with rudimentary linear logic systems that take like 4Hz out of a processor on a server.

Step a ) Player sets up a list of "blue-friendly" and "red-hostile" allainces, and validates if "grey-neutral" is meant to be shot.
Step b ) Turrets access a three step logic of checking a palyer's status, then if the owner set up fire on sight the turrets fire on sight.

That kind of thing does not require tremendous amounts of computation on NQ's part, they only check the owner's list of "valid targets" and then the turret fires accordingls.

Scripts and rudimentary operator-like logic is not the same thing. NPC scripts require - usually - their own server to run on, cause NPCs have scripts for pathfinding. which are a whole lot of complicated and do require a lot of computation.

So yeah, I can see why NQ would want stationary things, like bases having autoamted defenses. You can have like 4000 Guns, they'd take no more  than 4 KHz out of the server node - which is nothing. Likewiwse, NQ can LIMIT the time of those automated defenses by linking it with an in-game mechgnaic - like degrading logic chips or something, there excuse is in the tech of it - so those automated defenses need in-game money to be sustaiend or i-game resources, or, hey, FUEL might be a good balance for their uptime.

Point is, we should not linger on semantics like this. Point is they CAN do automated defenses for  bases, they are not that difficult. They said "we may allow simple scripts to run on the server" on many occassions, this is what they meant, systems like 3 step logic.

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