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How to prevent basic "griefing"?


Morand

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Having a fully generated beautiful world is really cool.


I play Minecraft since many years, and I like to explore and see the different landscape auto-generated. But, as we have already seen in Minecraft, when players comes in and there is no restriction, this world will soon be ugly. And serious players will just hate to see this beautiful world griefed by other players.
For this reason, we see some basic rules on many Minecraft servers, like: "Flying trees are forbidden, so cut it entirely and replant it".
You know we will have the exact same problem in DU. At least in Minecraft trees can grow and grass can spread.


As we have seen in the pre-alpha player test video, the 1st thing everybody will test is : dig a hole in the ground and put a cube on the floor.
With 100 players it will very soon be ugly, but with 10000 players, will you even recognize a planet landscape or a garbage planet?

 

So, Novaquark, what is your plan against that mass griefing coming ?

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Griefing and ugly terrain are not the same things. Griefing involves intentionally harassing other players in a way that is inconsistent with the rules of the game or goes far beyond "standard play". Ugly terrain is just an aesthetic opinion. 

 

This has come up in a few other threads, which I will look for and then link here for you to look through. The general consensus has been that if certain players don't like the way things look or other players are doing things, it is up to them to try and do something about it. This is the nature of a sandbox game. 

 

Edit: Threads:

 

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Why are only people who enjoy beautiful things serious players?

 

DU is a sandbox with emergent gameplay.

What do you think EMERGENT means? 

If some players dig holes and you don't like that - get people together to fix that. YOU have to do that, not nq. That's emergent gameplay

 

And I agree with void. That's not griefing

Edited by Lethys
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Additionally, consider the scale of the planets. With well over a hundred thousand km^2 on some planets it would take people a long time to make the whole planet look bad. Plus groups can enforce building rules in their territory if they so choose. 

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Well, thanks for the links. It's a subject already discussed many times, and I didn't find it with the research.

If only I could delete this useless topic!

 

Maybe we use different words, but we was all talking about the same subject. There is no need to explain what I said.

 

Even if we didn't get any answer from NQ, it looks like the solution people agreed is to let players clean all the mess.

I'm not playing to clean someone else mess, so I disagree with that and I'm not sure it will work. But I assume only the alpha will give us the answer.

 

Please do not continue this useless discussion.

Thx again.

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Hi.

Griefing is the act of repeatedly ganking upon a person for the sole purpose of tasting their tears.

What you are asking is "NQ, I want no ugly planets. BAN ANYONE WHO DESIRES TO PLANT A VOXEL THAT I DON'T APPROVE OF."

So, yeah, good luck with that. If someone wants to build a giant dick outside your house just to troll you, it's their time they spent to do so. You don't want that to happen? Cool, build within a safezone. Oh, you are not the kind of person to live in a safezone? Build within a Territory Claim. Oh you are not having access to those? Cool, get in an organisation that has access to them and ensure no Washington Monuments are erected.

As simple as that. The players police the in-game landscape of unwanted structures. NQ is not the police here (unless the griefing becomes involved IRL, then it IS their job).

Cheers.

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12 hours ago, Lord_Void said:

Additionally, consider the scale of the planets. With well over a hundred thousand km^2 on some planets it would take people a long time to make the whole planet look bad. Plus groups can enforce building rules in their territory if they so choose. 

 

Yes, indeed. In a game where most people probably will play in/on/from claimed, protected territory, I don't think ugly planets will be a problem at all.

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Idk about you, but the beautiful environment isn't what brought me to this game.  Not sure why a serious player has to be for beautiful terrain.  As in the real world, I will strip the land for all it's worth and take to the skies!  :D

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Actually, now you mention "ugly terrain". I know what every multiplayer games with a building sandbox looks like at the start:

- ugly square huts

- drawings and sculptures of penises

- a big mixture of half finished, half arsed projects.

 

That's something that you'll have to get used to for the first three months until the area control units go up. When sectors get claimed, the owners are likely going to clean house. I foresee that after a year a city is constructed around the Ark ship, sectors with buildings with connecting streets and lushious parks perhaps to seperate districts. HOWEVER! This will only exist if corps and orgs are dedicated at making this work.

 

Outside the Safe Zone there's likely a lot of litter. Destroyed hoverships, ruins of fortresses or bases, more half arsed/finished projects. It creates a perfect area for bandits and pirates to hide and ambush your ass. This will be in any direction outside the dome for perhaps a KM before you reach untouched flora and founa. You might encounter a sector here or there belonging to a large corp that can hold it's ground against griefers or have their forward base of opperations there. Large shipyard, research stations, militairy outposts or mineral factories. You're likely to be held by patrols making sure you're not a corp-spy or griefer.

 

From there on, your out. You are at the corner of the map with the dragons and clouds. The unfilled areas on the map.

 

There's also a different type of griefing which I fear the most in the Safe Zone. You can't demolish each other's creations, so you know what, I build a box around your base and will ask you to hand over all your resources or the lock-code to your storage before I demolish my box.

 

Also, there's a thing I learned from World of Warcraft when it comes to griefing. I've rigorously tested this on many servers because the phenomenon was quite baffeling. There's a LOT more grieving on PVE servers than there's on PVP servers. Realise that DU will be one big PVP server. For some reason I've noticed that people on PVP servers have the freedom to slaughter your low level arse right there on the spot. But they risk this danger themselves as much as you do. Most of them are busy with their own thing that they, for the most part, ignore your presence. They are, however, very alert. This, because they know the danger is there. The awareness that it creates also causes players from both sides to, sometimes, chip in and help each other with dangerous mobs.

 

This detail is in stark contrast to the PVE realm, where you more likely expect friendlier players to populate the server. If you wonder around, flagged as PVP, you are garaunteed to be ganked 7/10 times. 1/10 times the player of opposing faction will scope out the situation and considers the risks before deciding not to. And this is in a setting where the possibility to grief each other is lowest.

 

Novaquark will cut it's own fingers if they try to stear and guide too much in a sandbox in what can and can't. Obviously it's their game and they can do with whatever they damn well please, but limiting potential based on the assumption it might hinder others will result in what I've previously mentioned. Trust the community to solve these issues amongst themselves. I'm confident with a community such as this, we're ingenuitive enough to ostracize the bad apples and providing peace to less pvp capable players. You can bet 10 to 1 that orgs and corps know how toxic it can be for their growth having grievers around, so they'll be sure to flush them out root and stern.

 

Jesus, I need to learn to type simpler answers...

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29 minutes ago, Omfgreenhair said:

Actually, now you mention "ugly terrain". I know what every multiplayer games with a building sandbox looks like at the start:

- ugly square huts

- drawings and sculptures of penises

- a big mixture of half finished, half arsed projects.

 

 

I like to picture above as the Stone age of every multiplayer sandbox game with creation elements.

 

Also, very well articulated and thorough written post.

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10 hours ago, Elildar said:

I'm not playing to clean someone else mess, so I disagree with that and I'm not sure it will work. But I assume only the alpha will give us the answer.

 

I'm still baffled by this. 

Nq can ban certain symbols and I understand why they do this.

But ugly terrain? Why should they invest time and money to do that? Who gets to decide which terrain is ugly? 9'876'098 people might not like my holes I dug around my base. But I do.... So what? Should they look into thousands of reports and delete stuff the majority finds ugly?

 

I don't get it

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9 minutes ago, Zamarus said:

I like to picture above as the Stone age of every multiplayer sandbox game with creation elements.

 

It has been long known that there are certain questions players must answer when they start playing a game. The first is usually "Can I stand in fire?". It seems the second is "Can I breed with rocks?" :P

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11 hours ago, Elildar said:

I'm not playing to clean someone else mess, so I disagree with that and I'm not sure it will work. But I assume only the alpha will give us the answer.

 

You won't, but someone else can or might be supposed to, which is perfectly fine.

 

It might not be your preference, but it is not wrong either.

 

Here's a simple aspect: Reality and taking the trash away. You might not like or do it, but someone will - and it kinda seems to work, doesn't it?

 

---

 

I also understand you called for an end to the discussion, or at least signalled that from your end: I'm aware of that, I'm simply underlining the point or my view for others who might be (still) reading or posting.

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20 hours ago, Omfgreenhair said:

Outside the Safe Zone there's likely a lot of litter. Destroyed hoverships, ruins of fortresses or bases, more half arsed/finished projects. It creates a perfect area for bandits and pirates to hide and ambush your ass. This will be in any direction outside the dome for perhaps a KM before you reach untouched flora and founa.

We call this place... The Badlands

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21 hours ago, mrjacobean said:

We call this place... The Badlands

 

I think it's kind of badass that there are going to be areas that are just utterly wrecked.

 

My experience with games like this is that there will be utter devastation at first as every player digs up the area around the safe zone to get started and bootstrap the economy. After a couple of weeks, there will emerge some sort of group either a specific org or a loose alliance that will start to manage the land usage of "ark city" even before anyone gets a TU. New players are a valuable commodity, I see the ark city zone emerging as a recruitment hub for the major org's. These players will be very keen to present an air of professionalism so they will probably go around and tear down any low effort builds as it reflects badly and generally make the starting zone a nice area.

 

That said, immediately out of sight (over the relatively close horizon) I imagine there will be a belt of abandoned and devastated structures as those "solo players" who either didn't want to get recruited or just want to feel out the game solo set up their first structures. This will be prime griefing turf for bandits predating on newbies.

Really it comes down to how much people care about their views of the scenery, which in my experiences is a lot. Expect wars to get started over people obstructing others peoples vistas!

 

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Same like EVE, make high security zones that extend around the safe zones in a declining manner. Have "free space" after that which is basically lawless. This might be an unpopular suggestion, but even organisations should be able to have some automated security access around high density regions. So if any one suddenly gets ganged up from pirates the local authority, aka the organisation who controls that space, emits their own version of the "high security" zone.

 

High security should be compromised if the organisation loses some criteria that disrupts the organisation, rendering the in game security system inert. This might cause some emergent gameplay where large amounts of smuggling and piracy can occur whenever there is a war or conquering of an empire in any region of colonized space which reflects on reality in a way. Just look at all the people smuggling caused by the Syrian migration crisis. 

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On 7/30/2017 at 3:54 PM, Omfgreenhair said:

Actually, now you mention "ugly terrain". I know what every multiplayer games with a building sandbox looks like at the start:

- ugly square huts

- drawings and sculptures of penises

- a big mixture of half finished, half arsed projects.

 

That's something that you'll have to get used to for the first three months until the area control units go up. When sectors get claimed, the owners are likely going to clean house. I foresee that after a year a city is constructed around the Ark ship, sectors with buildings with connecting streets and lushious parks perhaps to seperate districts. HOWEVER! This will only exist if corps and orgs are dedicated at making this work.

 

Outside the Safe Zone there's likely a lot of litter. Destroyed hoverships, ruins of fortresses or bases, more half arsed/finished projects. It creates a perfect area for bandits and pirates to hide and ambush your ass. This will be in any direction outside the dome for perhaps a KM before you reach untouched flora and founa. You might encounter a sector here or there belonging to a large corp that can hold it's ground against griefers or have their forward base of opperations there. Large shipyard, research stations, militairy outposts or mineral factories. You're likely to be held by patrols making sure you're not a corp-spy or griefer.

 

From there on, your out. You are at the corner of the map with the dragons and clouds. The unfilled areas on the map.

 

There's also a different type of griefing which I fear the most in the Safe Zone. You can't demolish each other's creations, so you know what, I build a box around your base and will ask you to hand over all your resources or the lock-code to your storage before I demolish my box.

 

Also, there's a thing I learned from World of Warcraft when it comes to griefing. I've rigorously tested this on many servers because the phenomenon was quite baffeling. There's a LOT more grieving on PVE servers than there's on PVP servers. Realise that DU will be one big PVP server. For some reason I've noticed that people on PVP servers have the freedom to slaughter your low level arse right there on the spot. But they risk this danger themselves as much as you do. Most of them are busy with their own thing that they, for the most part, ignore your presence. They are, however, very alert. This, because they know the danger is there. The awareness that it creates also causes players from both sides to, sometimes, chip in and help each other with dangerous mobs.

 

This detail is in stark contrast to the PVE realm, where you more likely expect friendlier players to populate the server. If you wonder around, flagged as PVP, you are garaunteed to be ganked 7/10 times. 1/10 times the player of opposing faction will scope out the situation and considers the risks before deciding not to. And this is in a setting where the possibility to grief each other is lowest.

 

Novaquark will cut it's own fingers if they try to stear and guide too much in a sandbox in what can and can't. Obviously it's their game and they can do with whatever they damn well please, but limiting potential based on the assumption it might hinder others will result in what I've previously mentioned. Trust the community to solve these issues amongst themselves. I'm confident with a community such as this, we're ingenuitive enough to ostracize the bad apples and providing peace to less pvp capable players. You can bet 10 to 1 that orgs and corps know how toxic it can be for their growth having grievers around, so they'll be sure to flush them out root and stern.

 

Jesus, I need to learn to type simpler answers...

Fantastic post.  I loved the part about pvp servers and pve servers, and I've found the same thing you have.  Very few people have this opinion though!  In PvP there can be consequences, in PvE you can troll someone and block another player from some content without repercussion.  

 

Another thing to mention is that DU has no incentive for mindlessly killing new spawn. You don't gain exp, you don't gain some type of reputation style system, you don't gain anything. You do risk a negative community reputation and perhaps there will be an organization that will "hunt" down these players.

 

Why would an organization do this?  Because it would be profitable, and they might get a good tingly feeling idk, but I'd do it for the profit.  In order to be a skilled griefer you will need a good ship and good personal combat gear.  Alternatively, if we get the bounty system... that's another profit maker.

 

I know this is a little bit off topic, as it isn't about destruction of terrain but the more traditional sense of briefing... but, long story short:

 

Can you be a griefer in DU?  Yes.  Will it be a problem?  I don't think so.

 

edit:

Briefing should be griefing.  I am not talking about the exchange of information to an audience unfortunately.

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7 hours ago, Hades said:

Fantastic post.  I loved the part about pvp servers and pve servers, and I've found the same thing you have.  Very few people have this opinion though!  In PvP there can be consequences, in PvE you can troll someone and block another player from some content without repercussion.  

 

Another thing to mention is that DU has no incentive for mindlessly killing new spawn. You don't gain exp, you don't gain some type of reputation style system, you don't gain anything. You do risk a negative community reputation and perhaps there will be an organization that will "hunt" down these players.

 

Why would an organization do this?  Because it would be profitable, and they might get a good tingly feeling idk, but I'd do it for the profit.  In order to be a skilled griefer you will need a good ship and good personal combat gear.  Alternatively, if we get the bounty system... that's another profit maker.

 

I know this is a little bit off topic, as it isn't about destruction of terrain but the more traditional sense of briefing... but, long story short:

 

Can you be a griefer in DU?  Yes.  Will it be a problem?  I don't think so.

 

edit:

Briefing should be griefing.  I am not talking about the exchange of information to an audience unfortunately.

 

In the Wild West, we exchange informations with bullets.

 

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  • 4 years later...

I have never seen servers with such a large number of players. I have always chosen a server with a criterion of about 60 players, and it seems that this is the maximum. And here you are talking about such a number of players on the server? I think that there is no point in making such servers yet, because the computer will not withstand such loads, and the server will constantly turn off. Of course, for the project administration, including for the creator, the more players, the better because a large amount of money will be invested in the project. Well, this is just my opinion, it may not coincide with yours, good luck to everyone :)

________________________________________________

minecraft.buzz

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