Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Shockeray

Alioth Desolation

Recommended Posts

I am sure that we have all thought of this to a certain extent, but I am curious to hear it discussed openly between organizations.

Because of the fact that everyone is going to be spawning without resources at the arkship at least once (many of us uncountable times as we fail and die somewhere), there is obviously going to be very swiss-cheese-ish terrain around the arkship. Even if there is some kind of boundary on how close you can mine, it will just push the terrain destruction outward. Another thing that will exasperate this is if there are free trial accounts; these users are going to be much more likely to just mine out a section before a percentage get bored and leave.

Are there ways that we could combat this? Or maybe, is this even an "issue" that needs to be counteracted? Should we just leave the arkship terrain to be mined into oblivion or take steps to prevent random destruction of the nearby ecosystem? Lots of organizations are going to want to have a presence as close as possible to the arkship; are these shops going to be left on pillars of earth as the rest is mined away?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The arkzone itself won't contain much resources, so there's no issue there at all. IF they even allow mining there at all. 

 

Depending on how (and where) the resources around that zone are distributed, there will be holes all over the place. Even random holes where no resources were will be dug, just toenough annoy people.

 

To me it's simple: let players handle it and see where it goes. 

And no, automated algorithms to fill those spaces wouldn't be a good idea, for various reasons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This issue has been brought up several times in the past, and no one really has a solution they like yet. NQ has also failed to provide a concrete answer to the problem, so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Personally, I would favor some ability to fill in excavated terrain, so we can fix random holes people dig. They could also discourage mining around the Arkship by spawning all resources a ways away, or deep underground... But there's still going to be trolls who excavate giant trenches for kicks and giggles.

 

If I were to guess, I'd say they're waiting till alpha to see how players actually act regarding terrain excavation, and that will allow them to make an educated decision about how to handle it.

 

But whatever you do, don't mention a "player agreement" to deal with the problem, or you'll find at least a dozen people raging at you for *daring* to suggest they not act like total tools 100% of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. This has been brought up several times in the past but there really hasn't been any real ideas to solve it. I think really the only thing to do is wait and see how it is. I'm sure if things get bad people will fix it and if not then that's the sandbox for you.

 

As far as player agreements go, the reason people laugh when people suggest those is because barely any players will agree and there is no way to enforce those agreements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the only idea that really solves this dilemma, at least in part, is making the resources non existent near the arkship?

 

I had seen this topic brought up in reference to other discussions, but thought that we may make greater headway if it was discussed on its own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

easy solutions.
Lock the ark ship surrounding area from being modified

  •  create standing robotic prefab structures at time of launch that standing by generates passive resources. not a lot, just a small trickle with a limited amount per node, per account.
  • have the arkship ai create exploration missions that give resources. just a go to this beacon and get x credits, loot, or resource reward. (less rewarding than gathering outside the arkzone)
  • survey missions generated by the arkship ai, just the same as before. go to spot, survey the minerals, get rewarded by the arkship with an appropriate bounty. (less rewarding than outside)

Preserves the landscape, and gives various ways to get a grip on the game before moving beyond the shielded zone. More quests could be expanded upon, building your first blaster pistol with resources you earned from said missions. A short voxelmorph explanation in conjunction with modules, and what determines the numbers of modules per vessel, construct, or x.

 

 

Allowing player safe shielded areas to reserve certain rights inside their sphere.

  • restricting mineral rights to specific ranks or roles within their organisation.
  • enabling or disabling pvp, outside and separated from terraforming or extracting rights.

 

Lets groups dictate the theme, style, or landscape of their sphere. Perhaps you setup a safe zone on Alioth, and only let noobs come by and mine iron, or vice versa you restrict it to only specific ranks in your org.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Overall there is no easy solution, some of the suggested above are pretty good though.

What I could see being played out is that Alioth will eventually become in such a state of ruin until other planets are found and essentially become a mainstream to be played on, then there will be efforts by some of the "founding" orgs or players to rebuild Alioth to its former glory.

Alioth alone holds some +50k tiles to control.  Given that there is no automated mining it'll be a long time at even double the community count to wither away our precious starting planet.

All in all, I would like to preserve Alioth for as long as possible, lest it becomes some trash Minecraft server....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given the points that have been mentioned so far, it does seem like the problem might be self-solving. Orgs and individuals will of course be buying up the tiles closest to the Arkship, and if they simply stop people from mining, the problem should be minimal. Then, if we get a tool for re-filling holes, people will naturally smooth out the surface so they can build on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, yamamushi said:

I'm not so sure it's an issue that really needs to be dealt with from NQ's perspective. If we want it to look nice, we should buy up the territories around the Arkship and preserve it.

 

 

 I agree. Their job is to make it fun to play nor dictate aesthetics to us 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Lord_Void said:

 I agree. Their job is to make it fun to play nor dictate aesthetics to us 

 

On the surface, I absolutely agree. I don't like excessive rules more than anyone else. 

 

However, we need to accept that a lot of people are not going to want to play a game that's ugly. Looks matter to them, and a starting planet that's one giant strip mine will drive a lot of them away. This is a huge problem in a game like DU that depends on relatively high player counts to be enjoyable. 

 

Now, you could say HTFU and troll everyone who suggests that maybe we need to accept certain things we don't like for the health of the game, like the average EVE player... Or we can avoid the fate of the now dying EVE and plan for long term success from the beginning. That means keeping *some* of the starting zones relatively good looking, because first impressions are important.

 

That being said, we should be able to do whatever we want everywhere else, but it couldn't hurt to do something to preserve the land immediately around the Arkship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Vorengard said:

[...]
Looks matter to them, and a starting planet that's one giant strip mine will drive a lot of them away. This is a huge problem in a game like DU that depends on relatively high player counts to be enjoyable. 
[...]

 

I actually disagree on this point. In a game that is about themes as mining, industry, and eventually war. I think that it would almost feel natural for the entire ecosystem around the arkship to be completely decimated; almost having a dystopian industrial look to it. If you want pretty then you have to travel our far enough that you reach untouched locations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't get me wrong, of course there are those people, but they aren't "most gamers" by any stretch of the imagination. There are far more people who will appreciate spending their first several in-game hours in a place that isn't a total wreck, than those that enjoy being stuck in the visual equivalent of a totally trashed Minecraft server. Overall, I don't see a downside to making a small slice of the starting zone not a nightmare.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's sufficient if they don't allow mining in the arkzone itself.

 

but as shockerey, I'm against that too. It's a game. And should feel like people are busy and working 24/7. So to me it would make sense that the arkzone is mined out, heavily industrialized and busy as hell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New players themselves will probably be considered a resource, too. So more than likely there's going to be some landing pad area near the arkship supported by many orgs. There will be at least some effort to make it look nice enough or at least make the opportunities offered look nice enough for new players to stick around.

 

I'm curious to see what kind of mineral distribution there will be. It's possible that strip mines/large scale excavations will be far and few in between due to large veins of minerals being very uncommon. It's possible the majority of excavation won't even be visible above ground due to veins deep below the surface requiring only a small entrance/exit to access. There's too much unknown at this point.

 

And as others have said, there will be some people who care enough to actively repair the environment. If new players don't like the look of it, they can enlist with one of many orgs, hop on their ship, and fly away to play somewhere prettier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lethys said:

it's sufficient if they don't allow mining in the arkzone itself.

 

but as shockerey, I'm against that too. It's a game. And should feel like people are busy and working 24/7. So to me it would make sense that the arkzone is mined out, heavily industrialized and busy as hell

 

I also would prefer the Starting Zone not being mined out like a cheese. But Building should be allowed, since it only makes sense that there would be a City.

But this City is the first impression new Players get from the Game. So it should be somewhat nice. Maybe the Devs should allow free Building there but with low Moderation on what is allowed and what not (like some Building in Form of a Raised mittle Finger or a d*ck or whatever).

 

This is in regard to all Save Zone Ark Ships. Since those are apparently non Destruction, non Kill Zones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If people don't like the look of things then they should go clean it up. I doubt there'll be much mining around the arkship due to resources being further away. Like was said, new players will be a huge resources so there will be a huge incentive for groups to maintain a nice presence around the arkships and ship people out to more interesting area. Plus NQ could add a sort of NPE in a "simulation" before they leave the ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lethys said:

 It's a game. 

 

Yes exactly. It's a game, and so people will not play it if it's not enjoyable. If people don't play, we don't have anyone to sell stuff to, or to shoot at, and then we might as well not play at all. I don't understand what's so difficult and unacceptable about putting in a couple minor restrictions that would vastly improve new player retention by making the game not look like crap.

 

As always, far too many people are entirely concerned with their personal preferences, and not what might make a better game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Inasyah said:

 

I also would prefer the Starting Zone not being mined out like a cheese. But Building should be allowed, since it only makes sense that there would be a City.

But this City is the first impression new Players get from the Game. So it should be somewhat nice. Maybe the Devs should allow free Building there but with low Moderation on what is allowed and what not (like some Building in Form of a Raised mittle Finger or a d*ck or whatever).

 

This is in regard to all Save Zone Ark Ships. Since those are apparently non Destruction, non Kill Zones.

 

10 hours ago, Vorengard said:

 

Yes exactly. It's a game, and so people will not play it if it's not enjoyable. If people don't play, we don't have anyone to sell stuff to, or to shoot at, and then we might as well not play at all. I don't understand what's so difficult and unacceptable about putting in a couple minor restrictions that would vastly improve new player retention by making the game not look like crap.

 

As always, far too many people are entirely concerned with their personal preferences, and not what might make a better game. 

 

And I don't understand why people only read half the posts:

11 hours ago, Lethys said:

it's sufficient if they don't allow mining in the arkzone itself.

 

So I really don't get why you think I'm only concerned with my personal preference.

And no, outside of the arkzone (which is 10km radius! - so noobs will see THAT zone FIRST) there shouldn't be any restrictions because there players should handle it, like many many ppl already said:

10 hours ago, Lord_Void said:

If people don't like the look of things then they should go clean it up.

 

I'm just not a fan of moderating everything in a sandbox - if you don't like something ingame, clean it up yourself. If you think some group is too dangerous or toxic, organize resistance. If you think some building is ugly, tear it down yourself.

Yes that all implies work and effort on your part, a sandbox isn't a theme park where things are handed to you for free - if you want to get something done, you have to do it yourself

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Lethys said:

[...]
I'm just not a fan of moderating everything in a sandbox - if you don't like something ingame, clean it up yourself. If you think some group is too dangerous or toxic, organize resistance. If you think some building is ugly, tear it down yourself.

Yes that all implies work and effort on your part, a sandbox isn't a theme park where things are handed to you for free - if you want to get something done, you have to do it yourself

I think I agree with you on this point; regulations from NQ don't seem to be the correct way to deal with this should it become an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Shockeray said:

I think I agree with you on this point; regulations from NQ don't seem to be the correct way to deal with this should it become an issue.

I believe that the Save Zone should be under some regulation from GMs since the Players can't change what is already done (It is a non Destruction non Kill Zone as far as I know).

So if a Player is first and builds something improper - no other Player can do something about it. This calls for GM Intervention to me.

But outside of that I agree - the less GM Interference the better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed something that was talked over many times. One of the most interesting aspect yet only tests will show the scale of the problem. 

My easy solution to the problem was:

 

Drop on the ground whatever you dig up. Only use valuable resources.
Forcing people to think twice about mining operations. If there is a hole there will be a hill. Moving tones of dirt/rock should have consequences.

That will help to slow down degradation of terrain.

 

If you are troll trying to dig massive holes around some nice place you will have to shift that material somewhere. Not make it magically disappear.

And that idea has nothing to do with compressing technology to pretend you can carry few tones in your pocket. Yeas you can store more in relatively small area, but when put back on the ground it should have the same volume as original. 

 

Destroying terrain on large scale, or degrading it that way will take time. But still, possibility to repair it is there. 

Otherwise any planet sooner or later will start looking like an apple core. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

orginal[

Machen wir es doch wie früher, jeder Spieler steckt sein Gebiet ab und darf nur in seinem oder in einem freien Gebiet außerhalb der Schutzzone graben/ernten.

Die maximale größe des Geländes, die ein Spieler im Schutzgebiet beanspruchen kann, sollte auf ein Hexfeld beschränkt sein.

Organisationen können nur durch ihrer Mitglieder, und deren Übereignung, Gebiete besetzen (war wohl auch so von DU beschrieben).

Dazu müßen die Mitglieder ihr Gebiete der Organisation übereignen, aber verlieren dadurch die Möglichkeit ein neues Gebiet im Schutzbereich zu besetzen.

 

Es wird sicher Streit über den Besitz von Gebieten geben, aber hierzu können einfache Regelen aufgestellt werde.

zum Beispiel:

 Organisationen können Gebiete, die in oder an ihrem zusammenhängendem Gebiet ihrer Mitglieder liegen mit einem gleichgroßen Gebiet am Rand ihres Gebiets tauschen.
 Nur Organisation die ein größeres zusammenhängedes Gebiet besitzen, als das Sie beanspruchen, haben die Möglichkeit an Spieler oder Organisationen diese Forderung zu stellen.

 Außerdem muß das geforderte Gebiet an diese große Gebiet angrenzen oder es umschliessen.

 

 Verlässt ein Mitglied, welches sein Gebiet übereignet hat, die Organisation, verliert die Organisation am Rand des Teritoriums Gebiet (wo bestimmen die Chefs), in der Größe die

 das Mitglied eingebracht hat. Der Spieler hat nun die Möglichkeit ein neues Gebiet innhalb des Schutzgebiets zu beanspruchen.

 

 Wird ein Spieler oder Organisation zwangsversetzt haben diese die Möglichkeit sich ein Gebiet ihrer ursprüglich Größe am Rand (Gebiet der übernehmemden Organisation) der

 übernehmemden Organisation auszusuchen und es werden alle Dinge von dem ursprünglichen Gebieten getauscht (Entwickler) beziehungsweise entschädigt.

 

Damit sollte eine interesante Dynamik im Spiel entstehen.

Die Größe des Schutzgebietes kann von den Entwicklern angepast werden.

]orginal

 

google-englisch[

Let us do it as before, each player will be deprived of his territory and may only dig or harvest in his or her free area outside the protection zone.
The maximum size of the terrain that a player can claim in the protected area should be limited to a hex field.
Organizations can occupy areas only by their members, and their appropriation (was probably also described by DU).
To this end the members have to surrender their areas of the organization, but lose the possibility to occupy a new area in the protection area.

There will certainly be a dispute over the ownership of territories, but simple rules can be laid down for this.

for example:
 
Organizations may exchange areas located in or within their related area of their members with a region of equal size at the edge of their territory. Only an organization that has a
 larger related area than you claim has the ability to make this demand to players or organizations.
 
In addition, the required area must be adjacent to or encircle this large area.

 
If a member who has passed his territory leaves the organization, the organization loses at the edge of the territory territory (where the bosses), in size the
The Member has
 introduced. The player has now the possibility to claim a new area within the protected area.
 
 If a player or organization has forcibly displaced this the possibility of becoming an area of their original size on the edge (territory of the adopting organization) of the
 
Organization and all things are exchanged from the original territories (developer) or compensated.

This should create an interesting dynamic in the game.
The size of the protected area can be adapted by the developers.

]google-englisch

 

nfG Die Waldfee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is already a system planned for the safezone - paying taxes. 

 

Why should a player give up his tile? There is no reason to give it to another org (which is bigger in your example)

 

Why do you think there will be different tile sizes within the arkzone? Those will exist, but most likely outside (pentagons)

 

Plus your...."idea"... doesn't solve any of the problems at hand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...