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Jetpack alternatives and "safe-designing"


Shynras

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Hmm, maybe a Build Zone that you can set up that allows you to use unlimited jetpack within that zone? Outside of that zone, you can fly for a limited amount of time before the jetpack runs out and fills up again. Or you can use the resource consuming pack for infinite time outside of the zone. Choose one. 

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This is a quote from the wiki about jetpacks and building.

 

"Within a building zone, a special jetpack mode can be entered whereby the player has very precise control of their position. Their motion is exact (no drifting), and they can reach all parts of the construct."

 

A player has to place a core to use the building mode for a jetpack and they will be limited by the size of construct that could be built for that core.  I think that would generally make it impractical to use the building mode for anything but building.

 

An important thing to consider is that DU or any game can not make a player better at building than they actually are.  There are many other things were the player's character could do things the player would not be able to do, so limits need to be put in the game.  For example, a character could mine a whole planet at once or travel anywhere in the galaxy in an instant, but allowing that would make the game pointless.  Building does not need the same kind of artificial limits.

 

Building depends on how creative the player is, so I do not think there is any reason to make it more difficult.  To me, the satisfaction from building is seeing how well I can create something that is hopefully both beautiful and functional.  Making the process of building more tedious does not add to that satisfaction.

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Building depends on how creative the player is, so I do not think there is any reason to make it more difficult.  To me, the satisfaction from building is seeing how well I can create something that is hopefully both beautiful and functional.  Making the process of building more tedious does not add to that satisfaction.

 

-Since Du is not a modeling software but a game, the building aspect should be immersive as much as any other gameplay aspect in DU. 

-Having a godmode jetpack kills diversity and variety on building mechanics, and kills any hope for that to change in the future (because most players would hate a change like that after they got used to it)

-It kills diversity even for other gameplay aspects. To create a deathstar you'd just fly freely where you want with your jetpack vs huge effort by an org to set up scaffolding, that creates jobs and contracts (emergent gameplay), new gameplay possibilities and immersion

 

Again, it's not about nerfing the jetpack to make building tedious for everyone. You'll be able to train skills. If you think that a godmode jetpack is a priority for you, just research all the skills related to it, and those will improve it to reach godmode level. You're free to choose, so don't force everyone else to play a simplyfied game just because you're lazy

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-Since Du is not a modeling software but a game, the building aspect should be immersive as much as any other gameplay aspect in DU. 

-Having a godmode jetpack kills diversity and variety on building mechanics, and kills any hope for that to change in the future (because most players would hate a change like that after they got used to it)

-It kills diversity even for other gameplay aspects. To create a deathstar you'd just fly freely where you want with your jetpack vs huge effort by an org to set up scaffolding, that creates jobs and contracts (emergent gameplay), new gameplay possibilities and immersion

 

Again, it's not about nerfing the jetpack to make building tedious for everyone. You'll be able to train skills. If you think that a godmode jetpack is a priority for you, just research all the skills related to it, and those will improve it to reach godmode level. You're free to choose, so don't force everyone else to play a simplyfied game just because you're lazy

 

Building in this game is hardly simple... also a death star would be in space so it would make more sense to float around than use scaffolding.

 

I don't want it to be simple, i don't think adding a tedious babysit mechanic adds to game play in a meaningful way. Also when building ships and what not you will have to take into account aerodynamics, weight, fuel capacity, etc. There will also be scripting.

 

I would say the building is much more complex than minecraft level of simplicity, in mine craft its grab block place block.

 

Like I said before if you want to forgo using the jetpack and want to make scaffolding you can do that with the jetpack the way it is. If you think it's fun to play that way you can do it without affecting everyones gameplay.

 

This is the difference between the 2, with your way you force everyone else to play your way without giving us the option to play the way we like. where as with the jetpack the way it is you are still able to play in a restricted manner if that indeed how you'd like to play. Nothing is stopping you and your friends from building scaffolding for immersion purposes.

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This is the difference between the 2, with your way you force everyone else to play your way without giving us the option to play the way we like. where as with the jetpack the way it is you are still able to play in a restricted manner if that indeed how you'd like to play. Nothing is stopping you and your friends from building scaffolding for immersion purposes.

Actually it's the exact opposite. My suggestion is to put different ways to build, balanced so that they're all viable: everyone can then choose to upgrade and improve the way they like building, like a jetpack, until making it godmode level. You instead, are suggesting to put only one overpowered way to build, so that everyone has to use that or they'll be underdogs forever. 

Actually if you're a builder, it's in your best interest to have this kind of system, because it let's you specialize and get an advantage over people that never built, since it's likely they'd not train a jetpack skill if their only job is to mine or fight. With your suggestion, anyone will be able to build freely as a veteran builder, removing the progression experience.

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Actually it's the exact opposite. My suggestion is to put different ways to build, balanced so that they're all viable: everyone can then choose to upgrade and improve the way they like building, like a jetpack, until making it godmode level. You instead, are suggesting to put only one overpowered way to build, so that everyone has to use that or they'll be underdogs forever. 

Actually if you're a builder, it's in your best interest to have this kind of system, because it let's you specialize and get an advantage over people that never built, since it's likely they'd not train a jetpack skill if their only job is to mine or fight. With your suggestion, anyone will be able to build freely as a veteran builder, removing the progression experience.

 I Misunderstood you, basically you're saying what we have now should be an unlock. I'd actually be fine with that as long as its not a huge grind.

 

I think having it be an unlock is a fair compromise.

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How about having a multiplier of the building zone? So, at the beginning, you can only godmode around 1/5th the radius of the buildzone for example, but you can train skills to increase that multiplier.

 

I think its already like that, the build zone is based on the cube you start with if i remember right.

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Hmm, maybe a Build Zone that you can set up that allows you to use unlimited jetpack within that zone? Outside of that zone, you can fly for a limited amount of time before the jetpack runs out and fills up again. Or you can use the resource consuming pack for infinite time outside of the zone. Choose one. 

 

Like a ranged charger that is attached to the construct/CU

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Like a ranged charger that is attached to the construct/CU

 

I think that is sort of the plan, is it not? They mentioned having the ability to use the jetpack in a sort of "special builder mode" while building.

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I my opinion building/designing should be complete free and with out restrictions. You should not have to fight your tools to make them work.

There should also be plenty of options like 3 axis mirroring and copy/paste/replace.

 

I agree that you should not have to fight your tools, but I'm a little iffy on the "free and without restrictions" bit. I think the actual building tools should be easy to use, but if they try to oversimplify the building process, I'm not sure it'll end well. I like the idea of people building scaffolding in order to get around on and build a big ship, and therefore needing to build "shipyards" that have been designed with large ship building in mind. I like the idea of large shipbuilding being a challenging activity (not a needlessly hard activity, but there should be some challenge). I do like the idea that Shynras mentioned earlier: people should need to specialize in order to get very good at it.

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I think this topic is kinda get mixed. Seems to be 2 issues.

1) how difficult should it be to place voxels/elements and shape/smooth them(building)

2) will those voxels fly(design)

 

Personally i think the placing of voxels/elements should be very simple and made very easy to do, almost without restriction in build zones. The design should be where the gameplay can be felt and enjoyed. With the amount of control over voxels, shaping them/smoothing them it would be very annoying to have this functionality be restricted.

 

Empyrion had an interesting solution to this problem. you had a drone of sorts that could fly, access your inventory and place blocks making those hard to reach spots where your want to add voxels or shape voxels much easier.

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I agree that you should not have to fight your tools, but I'm a little iffy on the "free and without restrictions" bit. I think the actual building tools should be easy to use, but if they try to oversimplify the building process, I'm not sure it'll end well. I like the idea of people building scaffolding in order to get around on and build a big ship, and therefore needing to build "shipyards" that have been designed with large ship building in mind. I like the idea of large shipbuilding being a challenging activity (not a needlessly hard activity, but there should be some challenge). I do like the idea that Shynras mentioned earlier: people should need to specialize in order to get very good at it.

 

In my eyes scaffolding add nothing to the process other then taking time and being in the way :) there will be plenty problem making ships ranging from basic sizing and alignment to problem setting up internal systems.

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In my eyes scaffolding add nothing to the process other then taking time and being in the way :) there will be plenty problem making ships ranging from basic sizing and alignment to problem setting up internal systems.

 

You are probably right :)

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I don't really see the need for a special scaffolding block either, when you can just use dirt blocks or whatever. Maybe an ablity to remove all scaffolding via the core? IC2 for minecraft had a scaffolding block that could be easliy broken(all scaffolding blocks connected to the one that you mined got destroyed) and you could climb on that. I don't know about climbing mechanics in DU, but I don't think you should be able to climb vertical surfaces without tools or ladders on them.   

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I don't really see the need for a special scaffolding block either, when you can just use dirt blocks or whatever. Maybe an ablity to remove all scaffolding via the core? IC2 for minecraft had a scaffolding block that could be easliy broken(all scaffolding blocks connected to the one that you mined got destroyed) and you could climb on that. I don't know about climbing mechanics in DU, but I don't think you should be able to climb vertical surfaces without tools or ladders on them.   

 

I wasn't referring to any sort of special scaffolding block. I meant that people would need to build walkways and stairs around the outside of the ship in order to access certain parts of it during construction. I mainly meant for very large ships (like capital ships). Though I think that Shynras was right, designing a ship will be challenging enough that we don't need the added difficulty of trying to figure out how to move around it. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/30/2017 at 5:14 AM, Kuritho said:

Oxygen levels tho (if Oxygen will be implemented)

 

 

Anyways, I think a Construction Ship (like you see in Space Engineers with the welders and Build-Mode for ships) would be extremely fun.

Possibly a Piston-Platform as well? It'd really make the game feel... industrial. And that's good.

 

"Engage warp drive!"

"Warp drive engaged sir and.... uhh... there appears to be the remnants of some organic matter attached to the ship by a cable. Not even sure how much of it is left after being pulled into light speed without inertia stabilisers...."

"I guess we better have a look... Disengage warp drive!"

"Disengaging sir! Aaaaaaandd... whatever that was is now a very fine misty splatter across the rear section of the hull. I'm afraid our microscopic sensors can no longer pick up on what composition that organic matter used to be."

 

EDIT

On topic itself, yeah I fully support the "building your constructs in an open world setting" as you propose. But at the same time, I can also understand that not everyone wants to be in a PvP environment 24/7 in such games - and having that open world exist in a "safe area" is something that I can only see benefiting the game. And no, I don't see people building massive star destroying dreadnoughts and battleships in these "safe areas" over a week long progress, as it makes a whole load more sense to do this under the protection of those players' own corporation and alliance claimed territories - where they don't need to fly the required resources from to build the said construct, and fly the built construct back to - which makes such safe areas arguably more "dangerous" when it comes to constructs of that power and that size. 

 

Now for the idea itself - I propose simply separating the "building and blueprint" aspect of the game, and "testing simulator" aspect of building. The later will allow you to create a construct, and see how it performs "on paper" - ie. have all the variables calculated etc. You could still make a blueprint out of that "on paper" concept - but bear with me, as this brings me to the next point. The "building + blueprint" would become a separate mechanic, whereby a blueprint would be a final uneditable... well "blueprint" of the construct. So if you want to change something on the construct after you built it, you have to now make a new blueprint after the editing / changing the construct. Now what if the blueprints cost more money to create, after every time the construct has been made from one and edited after the fact? You can still edit things off blue prints, you can still make constructs in concept and print a blueprint straight away, but it becomes significantly more financially viable to make a concept, make sure it works on paper, then build a construct, field test it, do all the necessary alterations that you want, then print a blueprint of your creation. It may still be financially viable for you to have two or three blueprints of two or three versions of your ship that you have modified over time - but at some point, it again becomes financially viable to simply build a new ship from scratch rather than editing the construct and making a blueprint of it (for insurance or recreation), meaning you strip your old ship for the material, remake it etc. 

 

This also encourages players to run with good quality constructs that they don't feel they need to edit much (or at all), promoting good designers, encourages players who like to experiment to constantly be building in the physical world, and encourages players to re-build their ship now and again, rather than making a small fighter that they will fly for the next year, swapping out a "thing" here and there, while still retaining the freedom and ability of players to alter their constructs as they see fit as well as make them directly from blueprints avoiding the building stage altogether - providing their insurance will only reinstate the construct as per their 'old' blueprint (as an example) should they go kaboom. 

 

This does speculate on what the blueprints will actually do for the player too - I am assuming insurance payout will be based off them, but I may be wrong. Still, I feel this will combat a lot of the problems that you mentioned in your post regarding immersion. 

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On 5/29/2017 at 0:51 PM, Kuritho said:

Grappling Hooks in ANY game is fun.

Just imagine shooting one at an enemy ship and taking a free-ride.

I agree but only if done right. That being said do you want people spamming them like an arcade style in PvP sadly might be messy. Slow cool down etc makes them a lot less fun. That being said can be still a useful utility. 

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10 hours ago, KaneHart said:

I agree but only if done right. That being said do you want people spamming them like an arcade style in PvP sadly might be messy. Slow cool down etc makes them a lot less fun. That being said can be still a useful utility. 

Maybe making it take up your primary weapon's slot? So you could TECHNICALLY do it with a pistol, albeit poorly in PvP.

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11 hours ago, KaneHart said:

I agree but only if done right. That being said do you want people spamming them like an arcade style in PvP sadly might be messy. Slow cool down etc makes them a lot less fun. That being said can be still a useful utility. 

 

An arena battle that takes place in the sky could be very interesting to watch.

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On 5/29/2017 at 11:51 AM, Kuritho said:

Grappling Hooks in ANY game is fun.

Just imagine shooting one at an enemy ship and taking a free-ride.

 

On 6/2/2017 at 11:18 PM, 0something0 said:

I personally think RP is stupid in games as it largely relies on the honor system(which isn't very reliable in video games). Even more so in this situation since you are disadvantaging yourself on purpose.

 

Making jetpacks require resources makes people go out and get said resources, which is good for the DU community. It also means you can't just fly to the next planet over with the jetpacks. Also, i think the jetpack should be in-game for more then building. I think they should be used in all aspects of life from combat to exploration to transit.

 

On 6/3/2017 at 0:31 PM, Shynras said:

Since Du is not a modeling software but a game, the building aspect should be immersive as much as any other gameplay aspect in DU. 

-It kills diversity even for other gameplay aspects. To create a deathstar you'd just fly freely where you want with your jetpack vs huge effort by an org to set up scaffolding, that creates jobs and contracts (emergent gameplay), new gameplay possibilities and immersion

1

 

Basically, I'm going to build a fragile wood and metal construct around a device capable of annihilating planets? Seems kind of silly, especially when the aforementioned ship would be built in space as a previous poster said.

 

On 6/3/2017 at 2:17 PM, Shynras said:

Actually if you're a builder, it's in your best interest to have this kind of system, because it let's you specialize and get an advantage over people that never built, since it's likely they'd not train a jetpack skill if their only job is to mine or fight. With your suggestion, anyone will be able to build freely as a veteran builder, removing the progression experience.

1

 

Sorry, but any of us who haven't played other such games with various 3D builders, are at a quick disadvantage out of the gate compared to those that already have experience in such. Building is going to be so much more than swoosh, wish, wooooosh. There's gathering, planning, mapping etc. Also, builders progression experience, while I can see a place for that in some games, I can't exactly see that in this game.

 

What year is DU going to be set in? Come on now folks, it's the future. What's complex today is frivolous tomorrow. Having to build scaffolding in the 25 century is frivolous.

 

On 6/5/2017 at 1:57 AM, Kurosawa said:

You should not have to fight your tools to make them work.

 

 

That's about it, I actually have nothing more to say now... well, actually I do...

 

This entire debate, unlimited jetpack in a limited space vs manual scaffolding, will become entirely moot very quickly, for one very simple reason.

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