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In game rule enforcement/censorship. Good/Bad?


Zamarus

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5 minutes ago, Hades said:

Agree to disagree I suppose.  I think you need to read the rest of the thread though.

 

It doesn't matter what I find offensive, it matters what NQ will tolerate.  I can guarantee some things won't fly if you post them on the multimedia platform as per the last dev blog.  

 

Just as it doesn't matter what I find offensive, it doesn't matter what you think you have the right to do 

 

That's more a statement on the sad state of the world at the moment where the human right to freedom of speech is being attacked in some places... and out right violated in others.  This thread is about whether we think Censorship coming from the Devs separate from any player driven game system is good or bad.  I say it's bad. 

 

It will occur... it has to due to the sad state of the world... and the particularly restrictive laws where they are based... But that has no barring on the discussion at hand.

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I, for one, don't see an "end of the world".

 

If they have to forbid a bit of content you'd usually not see in such an environment anyway (most notably I can think of really heavy real-looking gore or mutilated bodies, then perhaps explicit sexual content and, as "dessert", maybe material related to obvious copyright infringement of protected works by certain companies and maybe, as tip of the iceberg, a swastika, I could not care less.

 

Some laws already forbid it, but given the covered content I really could care less if NQ is forced to forbid and, upon report, remove such material if it were to be displayed on screens in DU or in some other form.

 

The rest can stay as it is, or rather, be left in the hand of players alone.

 

Looking back at the OP, I wonder what an "offensive" symbol (or structure) is. Seems subjective - a lot. I think we should all be fine if we not go by subjective offensive definitions but by simply keeping things out that are forbidden by law in such cases where it might get NQ in trouble.

 

Most notable examples I can think of is again explicit sexual content, heavy gore (see above), maybe copyright infringement of real trademarks and so on and perhaps a Swastika in terms of displayed context. Could've been worse if you ask me.

 

Or are there any potential scenarios where we have to fear in-game censorship of some kind? I so far still fail to see problems - but it is an ongoing debate. One will always have to see how things change, and there could be many changes until or past release and depending on player interactions.

 

Thus, time will tell. I wouldn't go nuts over it however in an abstract debate, not until we perhaps have something more tangible or references in the current or future TOS that help us determine the stance of NQ.

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9 hours ago, Fitorion said:

 

That's more a statement on the sad state of the world at the moment where the human right to freedom of speech is being attacked in some places... and out right violated in others.  This thread is about whether we think Censorship coming from the Devs separate from any player driven game system is good or bad.  I say it's bad. 

 

It will occur... it has to due to the sad state of the world... and the particularly restrictive laws where they are based... But that has no barring on the discussion at hand.

Just because the world is "sad" and vile, doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare for it and or handle it when the time comes.  (if it comes)

 

If someone plasters beastiality or some other inane junk on a screen... I can imagine there will be consequences.  Yes, extreme case.  But your call for no censorship states that the screen should stay up.

 

To me, censorship is only important when we are talking about free speech and the ability to voice concerns in the real world.  Censorship is a problem in places like Venezuela, does it matter in a game?  No way.  Just enjoy the game, let NQ handle things how they see fit.

 

Matter of fact, NQ has clearly shown the ability to allow discussion on all aspects of the game without censorship... the most important component of free speech.  You can voice concerns about different aspects of the game, without retribution.

 

Just like you can't go outside with a sign plastered with adult material (at least in the US), you shouldn't be able to post a sign with such content in DU.

 

NQ isn't infringing on any of your rights if they decide to deal out disciplinary actions for inane or malicious content.  End of story.

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I can imagine a news article, it goes like so:

 

" Local Broflakes beat their chests over "censorship" for the fifth time in the row

Area man fears for his right to call strangers over the internet cuck and f*g, scroll down for more! "

 

No one is coming for your racist frog memes and imperialist (E)RP, calm down. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hades said:

Just because the world is "sad" and vile, doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare for it and or handle it when the time comes.  (if it comes)

 

If someone plasters beastiality or some other inane junk on a screen... I can imagine there will be consequences.  Yes, extreme case.  But your call for no censorship states that the screen should stay up.

 

To me, censorship is only important when we are talking about free speech and the ability to voice concerns in the real world.  Censorship is a problem in places like Venezuela, does it matter in a game?  No way.  Just enjoy the game, let NQ handle things how they see fit.

 

Matter of fact, NQ has clearly shown the ability to allow discussion on all aspects of the game without censorship... the most important component of free speech.  You can voice concerns about different aspects of the game, without retribution.

 

Just like you can't go outside with a sign plastered with adult material (at least in the US), you shouldn't be able to post a sign with such content in DU.

 

NQ isn't infringing on any of your rights if they decide to deal out disciplinary actions for inane or malicious content.  End of story.

Yep this.

 

BTW, the whole "Freedom of speech" thing people always rally behind in stuff like this, doesn't even really apply to these situations. NQ and this game is a private entity meaning they can set whatever rules they want about how you use their service. Freedom of speech protects you from your government, authorities coming after you for expressing your opinions and protests of them. Private entity's can set whatever rules they want, within reason of course.

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2 hours ago, mrjacobean said:

For things that you think shouldn't be there that NQ is fine with, you can always place a bounty on it...

So true, but the integrity of the devs tells me there will be things they are not okay with... and will punish 

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8 hours ago, Hades said:

Just because the world is "sad" and vile, doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare for it and or handle it when the time comes.  (if it comes)

 

If someone plasters beastiality or some other inane junk on a screen... I can imagine there will be consequences.  Yes, extreme case.  But your call for no censorship states that the screen should stay up.

 

To me, censorship is only important when we are talking about free speech and the ability to voice concerns in the real world.  Censorship is a problem in places like Venezuela, does it matter in a game?  No way.  Just enjoy the game, let NQ handle things how they see fit.

 

Matter of fact, NQ has clearly shown the ability to allow discussion on all aspects of the game without censorship... the most important component of free speech.  You can voice concerns about different aspects of the game, without retribution.

 

Just like you can't go outside with a sign plastered with adult material (at least in the US), you shouldn't be able to post a sign with such content in DU.

 

NQ isn't infringing on any of your rights if they decide to deal out disciplinary actions for inane or malicious content.  End of story.

 

No my call is for the "gods" of the virtual world AKA the devs... to not get involved.  And for the people inhabiting that virtual world AKA Us players... to handle it ourselves.  Just like any society does in real life.

 

It would require giving the player base the tools to enforce rules ... up to and including the ability to remove a player from the game permanently. 

 

NQ will probably not be brave enough to do that... and the laws haven't caught up to fully support the hands off approach.  But the ultimate goal of simulation games is to fully go hands off and let the players interact.

 


 

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6 minutes ago, Fitorion said:

 

No my call is for the "gods" of the virtual world AKA the devs... to not get involved.  And for the people inhabiting that virtual world AKA Us players... to handle it ourselves.  Just like any society does in real life.

 

It would require giving the player base the tools to enforce rules ... up to and including the ability to remove a player from the game permanently. 

 

NQ will probably not be brave enough to do that... and the laws haven't caught up to fully support the hands off approach.  But the ultimate goal of simulation games is to fully go hands off and let the players interact.

Good luck getting that to work flawlessly.

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2 minutes ago, Hades said:

Good luck getting that to work flawlessly.

Who said it'd be flawless.  Freedom is messy.  It's also better than all alternatives.

 

Lets use your sign with adult material example... to demonstrate how I'm thinking of this situation.

I can in the USA make a sign... put adult material on it... and go outside or to any place I want.  There is nothing inherent to the reality we inhabit which would prevent me.  God does not come down and spite me before I can... He doesn't interfere with my arm muscles when making the sign.  No.  The thing which prevents me is my own moral code... but lets say I didn't have that.  Then the threat of punishment from the other inhabitants of this reality would prevent me... and if I had not fear of that... then nothing would prevent me... Until I was seen and the other inhabitants physically stopped me.  It should work exactly the same in game.  It won't because we aren't there yet tech wise, trust wise, or legally speaking... but that doesn't change the dream.

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1 minute ago, Fitorion said:

Who said it's be flawless.  Freedom is messy.  It's also better than all alternatives.

 

Lets use your sign with adult material example... to demonstrate how I'm thinking of this situation.

I can in the USA make a sign... put adult material on it... and go outside or to any place I want.  There is nothing inherent to the reality we inhabit which would prevent me.  God does not come down and spite me before I can... He doesn't interfere with my arm muscles when making the sign.  No.  The thing which prevents me is my own moral code... but lets say I didn't have that.  Then the threat of punishment from the other inhabitants of this reality would prevent me... and if I had not fear of that... then nothing would prevent me... Until I was seen and the other inhabitants physically stopped me.  It should work exactly the same in game.  It won't because we aren't there yet tech wise, trust wise, or legally speeking... but that doesn't change the dream.

Yeah, that's where you're wrong.  A system dealing with out of game punishment needs to be flawless.  I didn't even read the rest, I'll be honest.

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1 minute ago, Hades said:

Yeah, that's where you're wrong.  A system dealing with out of game punishment needs to be flawless.  I didn't even read the rest, I'll be honest.

No one yet has invented a flawless court system yet we accept that.

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7 minutes ago, Fitorion said:

No one yet has invented a flawless court system yet we accept that.

Yeah, except this is a game.  And many games have had near flawless punishment systems for decades.

 

Also, your analogy is not on par.  One of the main reasons our court system can fail is that we aren't omniscient when it comes to everyone's actions.  Everything has to be proven, which can unfortunately lead to errors or just the plain inability to prosecute.  In dual universe, I imagine placing multimedia platforms will be linked to a specific player.

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4 minutes ago, Lord_Void said:

No system is every flawless, only more or less flawed than other systems.

And I can tell you now, players being the judge, jury, and executioner on all matters DU... is asinine and more flawed than any punishment system I have ever come across in a game.

 

And I've played games where the devs showed clear favoritism to different factions.

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3 minutes ago, Hades said:

And I can tell you now, players being the judge, jury, and executioner on all matters DU... is asinine and more flawed than any punishment system I have ever come across in a game.

 

And I've played games where the devs showed clear favoritism to different factions.

 

All I said was that no system is flawless. I said nothing promoting any system over another. 

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Just now, Lord_Void said:

 

All I said was that no system is flawless. I said nothing promoting any system over another. 

Didn't mean to make it sound like you did, was just trying to expand on it ;)

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4 minutes ago, Hades said:

And I can tell you now, players being the judge, jury, and executioner on all matters DU... is asinine and more flawed than any punishment system I have ever come across in a game.

 

And I've played games where the devs showed clear favoritism to different factions.

Your fellow IRL players are judge, jury, and executioner.  Judges are fellow humans.  The Jury is made up of humans.  The executioner is a human.  How is this any different?

 

Whether you are a follower or not you should at least be aware of Judeo-Christian beliefs...  The Jews being God's chosen people... how is that not the devs(God) playing favorites?

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7 minutes ago, Fitorion said:

Your fellow IRL players are judge, jury, and executioner.  Judges are fellow humans.  The Jury is made up of humans.  The executioner is a human.  How is this any different?

 

Whether you are a follower or not you should at least be aware of Judeo-Christian beliefs...  The Jews being God's chosen people... how is that not the devs(God) playing favorites?

What the crickey did I just read.  Are you telling me that the Jewish community rules the court system?  

 

Hate to break it to you, but many of the morals that correlate with the Judaic and Christian religions and the US court system are also found in the Quran, and even the Zoroastrian texts.  The avevla?  Might be spelling it wrong.  And countless others of course 

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13 minutes ago, Hades said:

What the crickey did I just read.  Are you telling me that the Jewish community rules the court system?  

 

Hate to break it to you, but many of the morals that correlate with the Judaic and Christian religions are also found in the Quran, and even the Zoroastrian texts.  The avevla?  Might be spelling it wrong.

 

No.  How could you possibly have gotten that from my post?

 

So what?  that only reinforces my point.

 

You clearly aren't understanding. (maybe you should actually read the posts...) Real Life = Playing the game.  Your fellow Human = Your fellow player.  The creator of reality(your god of choice or pure chance I guess) = the devs. 

 

There is nothing inherent in reality that prevents heinous acts... only the responses of the fellow inhabitants of that reality punish it.  We have the option of ejecting someone from reality too...

 

Why can't the same be true of inhabitants of a virtual reality? 

 

(real reasons as I see them: the devs don't trust us with that much power and they open themselves up to too much liability but again these are beside the point.)

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48 minutes ago, Fitorion said:

 

No.  How could you possibly have gotten that from my post?

 

So what?  that only reinforces my point.

 

You clearly aren't understanding. (maybe you should actually read the posts...) Real Life = Playing the game.  Your fellow Human = Your fellow player.  The creator of reality(your god of choice or pure chance I guess) = the devs. 

 

There is nothing inherent in reality that prevents heinous acts... only the responses of the fellow inhabitants of that reality punish it.  We have the option of ejecting someone from reality too...

 

Why can't the same be true of inhabitants of a virtual reality? 

 

(real reasons as I see them: the devs don't trust us with that much power and they open themselves up to too much liability but again these are beside the point.)

If it doesn't work in real life, why implement it in a game.  And those points are most definitely not beside the point.

 

Anywho, done arguing with you.  But I wouldn't get your hopes up for the system you want.

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3 minutes ago, Hades said:

If it doesn't work in real life, why implement it in a game.  And those points are most definitely not beside the point.

Because you're trying to make a realistic simulation.

 

Point of thread:  Is Dev interference such as censorship good or bad?

 

Not the point of the thread:  Will Dev interference such as censorship happen?  We already know this answer.  It's yes.

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It would,  could, might be nice to solely have players as the makers and enforcers of rules but I simply either don't see it happen for very specific cases or only do so in soft, limited capabilities. 

 

Let us take the screen as example again: how do you intend to act on it? If you can't rip it off, shoot,  blow it up right then and there or disable it as it is not your territory it is in,  then what?

 

You can of course threaten in-game action, loss of reputation,  etc as would be the case in other scenarios. But it could go on indefinitely unless you can force them through soft measures or war. 

 

As it probably should be on average,  yes, but now we factor in the game rating as far is it can be applied to an online environment and then that certain laws might force NQ's hand in select cases.

 

In other words, it might be better if players were able to deal with that, but it's no big problem if NQ can or has to intervene in select cases either, I think. 

 

 

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Yeah gl with giving people in a game so much power. It'll only be abused and the game would be dead soon. People would ban players for shits and giggles.

 

To the other points: 

NQ made their decision and to me it's a good one.

I want this game to be known for gameplay, huge cities, fights and ships and not for swastikas and adult material.

Every extremist position (may it be left or right, free-speech fanatic or consorship-fanatic) is bad to me - we can't live in that wonderful dream to the fullest with such mindsets imho. 

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13 hours ago, Fitorion said:

 

No.  How could you possibly have gotten that from my post?

 

So what?  that only reinforces my point.

 

You clearly aren't understanding. (maybe you should actually read the posts...) Real Life = Playing the game.  Your fellow Human = Your fellow player.  The creator of reality(your god of choice or pure chance I guess) = the devs. 

 

There is nothing inherent in reality that prevents heinous acts... only the responses of the fellow inhabitants of that reality punish it.  We have the option of ejecting someone from reality too...

 

Why can't the same be true of inhabitants of a virtual reality? 

 

(real reasons as I see them: the devs don't trust us with that much power and they open themselves up to too much liability but again these are beside the point.)

That's not how it works with online games though of any kind. The Dev is more like the government then a god. They create a system of rules and policy and we the citizens err players have to follow those rules. A better analogy is a simple private business and its customers. They provide a service and we pay for and use that service and we can continue to do so as long as we follow their rules.

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