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New PLEX System in EVE, and What DACs can learn from it.


Lord_Void

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a general observation of mine over the months on these forums. People want "NPC quests" and "NPC s with attitude", but they do not want players -

Honestly Twerk I think a lot of people are just "scared" having to interact with people to get things done. And I dont blame them, current MMO design has turned many people into anti social players.

 

A lot of the 3rd generation MMO players just dont know anything beyond the modern skinner box.

 

They also think that a game can be everything for everyone. But thats not how it works.

 

Those are some of my observations.

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They are and thats a good thing.

NQ and JC have a specific vision for this game and an "old skool" philosophy towards MMO design. But a lot of play styles are represented in DU. DU has a lot of different things for different people.

 

Just copy/pasting other MMO's hasn't worked the past 15 years and it wont work tomorrow.

 

I dont know about you but I am tired of playing the same games year after year where everything is the same but the scenery.

Yeah, it would be good for once if someone made something innovative for starters. Copying EVE's mentality is a good thing, because when EVE is injected into Minecraft, you get a game full of depth and varieties - as well as versatile gameplays.

 

EVE works as a game, because it has no predefined classes or roles - like minecraft. You can train to do anything, as long as you like the thing you train up to do. DU is going ham on that notion, by injecting "no NPC anything" in the game world. You want a police force to stop rampart PKing? Organise a police force. If you like being helpful and being dubbed "the good guy", this is your chance to do so and earn ACTUAL reputation, rather than grinding a Reputation Bar. You do not protect NPCs who - quite frankly - you would not even remember their names or backstories, you are protecting actual people who can talk to you and remember you for being that "one guy who helped me that one time when those raiders attacked".

 

And even better, if the devs don't add a "magical" Local Chat that is omniscient, we may actually have the role of Rangers emergning in the oform of people patrolling borders for intruders - instead of a generic archer trope from WoW-clones.

 

But I guess some people would rather grind for months to get a waifu NPC to tell them "onee-chan, good job, here's the Edgelord Blade of Doom +1000" instead of developing and building on actual relationships with other player characters and being social - no matter what kind of social they are good at.

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And even better, if the devs don't add a "magical" Local Chat that is omniscient,

I think we could go on for hours on "what's wrong" with this or that. Lucky for us JC is a smart man and NQ happened. :P

 

Not to drift too much but chat is a very interesting topic in DU. How would you define a region or a local chat within the DU server structure. The best I can come up with is a proximity based chat or some elements to broadcast channels...its fascinating.

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I think we could go on for hours on "what's wrong" with this or that. Lucky for us JC is a smart man and NQ happened. :P

 

Not to drift too much but chat is a very interesting topic in DU. How would you define a region or a local chat within the DU server structure. The best I can come up with is a proximity based chat or some elements to broadcast channels...its fascinating.

Well, let's hope they answer that question soon, or at least, whenever they work on that aspect of the game.

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Honestly Twerk I think a lot of people are just "scared" having to interact with people to get things done. And I dont blame them, current MMO design has turned many people into anti social players.

 

A lot of the 3rd generation MMO players just dont know anything beyond the modern skinner box.

 

They also think that a game can be everything for everyone. But thats not how it works.

 

Those are some of my observations.

 

Like twerk said, this is the problem with those "generic, bad gameplay copying, korean MMO" type of games we see nowadays for the 50th time.

People are so used to (IMHO) really bad game mechanics and grinding mechanisms plus the resulting, bad player attitude (get to lvl 20/100, find the uber sword of power, kill 3000000 boars, raid (omg that word) that boss 50 times, get this gear or we won't take you on the raid, you need to be THIS tall to come with us, talk to this NPC for a quest, ....). This all makes up for (sometimes) fun games but caters only to tight knit groups like friends or "elite" players but don't really have ANY depth. No NPC content creator (quest giver) can be as good as a player, nor can some kind of generic boss. But players all around the world are so used to this kind of setup that they forget what a real sandbox MMO should be like.

 

In-game depth, emergent gameplay, hilarious situations, villains/good guys, archenemies, dark pirate lords, huge empires, dictators, good fellas who go for bounties and much much more aspects of a sandbox MMO like DU will be generated from PLAYERS. No AI, no sophisticated program, no robot can come up with creative solutions to a problem like a human can.

 

I think the biggest problem such players have is their fear of trying something new, getting out their comfort zone and just accepting that this is an open world sandbox where no game mechanic outside the safe zone will protect your stuff - "I pay to play, so I want my stuff safe". They don't realize that you can do everything in DU and that players will come up with good and safe solutions for protecting their stuff. They fear a free for all slugfest with no rules, hardcore pvp outside those safe zones.

 

I want DU to be fun for everyone, for good guys as well as for bad guys. You can't be a good guy without the bad ones. And guess what: when DU turns out to be a free for all hellhole then I will be the good guy (hard to believe, eh?). I don't want the 51st iteration of WOW mechanics and I don't want EVE 2.0. NQ has an oppertunity here to make a great game - and their vision is really really promising

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Maybe I'm naive (I think thats the word) to believe DU wont be the traditional FFA.

But I really think DU will be less hostile. DU wont be a 1 trick pony and that will be reflected in player behaviour, I think.

 

We are in for a fascinating ride.

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Maybe I'm naive (I think thats the word) to believe DU wont be the traditional FFA.

But I really think DU will be less hostile. DU wont be a 1 trick pony and that will be reflected in player behaviour, I think.

 

We are in for a fascinating ride.

Nah, you ain't naive. It won't be an FFA, because that's where organisations and alliances come into play.  DU is indded, not a one trick pony. Being a PvP game, doesn't mean you have to shoot people. Bartering can be PvP, so does a shootout.

 

And when the trading starts, economic schemes will be the "top-tier" Economic PVP. Competition comes in many a flavor.

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I want DU to be fun for everyone, for good guys as well as for bad guys. You can't be a good guy without the bad ones. And guess what: when DU turns out to be a free for all hellhole then I will be the good guy (hard to believe, eh?)...

 

You speak of bringing balance to the forces. I can support this.

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WOW this place progress, 

Hey THX to all ppl that answer my posts, there was so much that i can't quote everthing.. 

Its very interesting how things works on EVE, i only know EVE from outside, Probably DU will not be externally the same but seems most of mechanics will be similar. I'm curious on how this will work in-game.

About the Non existence of NPCs, I like the Idea, also never ask for NPC or quests, (i don't want npcs at all) 
they become more unnecessary since the skills will not be attached to exp points or quests.  
Will be interesting to see how lost the ppl will be at beginning.

For my play style as more ppl as better. so no npc selling stuff is good for makers business.
I only like to have alien fauna, or maybe some aggressive monsters to give us some emotion wile explore planets and asteroids..

Some NPC helpers to give the players the "tutorial" would be interesting to.
 

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Hi everyone! 

 

So we had an internal discussion on this topic in the team.

 

Here are the main points:

 

1) We still think that the DAC as a Monthly Subscription Token remains the easiest form to understand for new players about its use and primary goal (enabling players who can't afford a monthly subcription to be able to play the game by remaining reasonably active in-game).

 

2) As the merge of such currencies makes PLEXes a virtual item accessible from anywhere, and as we had already a lengthy discussion on the forum several months ago about the same topic for DACs, we saw this side effect as a negative point. So, in the case we would go for a more divisible currency, we will think of the possibility while keeping the following constraint: once the currency token is dropped into the game from the external inventory (being called "Vault" or "Account's Redeeming System"), it will be tagged if it is returned to the external inventory. It will then be only droppable to the last location it was redeemed in-game (just like the PLEXes work in EVE Online at the moment).

 

3) The move from merging PLEX and Aurum currencies makes sense as it simplifies the whole system: one currency for both the monthly subscription model and the in-game cosmetic cash shop. However, as it's not even confirmed that there will be a cosmetic shop (still currently being discussed) in Dual Universe, this positive point doesn't apply to our context at the moment. If at some point, a cosmetic cash shop is integrated to the game, it's possible that the DAC will be converted in a more divisible currency, to avoid deploying several currencies for the same purpose.

 

4) Going for more divisible DACs will require extra development time that could delay the official game release, and that's another negative point.

 

So, in a nutshell, it's not planned to do any changes regarding the DACs at the moment.

We stick to the plan with DACs being usable as monthly subscrition tokens.

If something isn't clear or if you have questions, just let us know!

 

@Lynkx:

- We are aware that the PLEX system is not perfect, but in our opinion (the Novaquark team) the best compromise we can find.

We have in the team players who have played many MMORPGs: EVE Online, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter, Archeage, Elder Scrolls Online, Elite Dangerous, Wildstar, etc. So we aren't just looking to the EVE Online model while ignoring completely what has been done elsewhere. It's just that the EVE Online model seems to be the most balanced one so far (even if it has flaws). 

- A minimal alien fauna is planned for the official release (and will probably grow in diversity afterwards)

- Having a few NPC helpers visible in-game for the tutorial is something considered, but we can't promise anything on that topic right now (we have also some ideas for tutorials without involving visible NPCs in the game world).

- On a last note, please avoid to reply to other community members in an ironical/provocative way (this doesn't add anything to the discussion)

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

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Thanks Nyzaltar for the clarification. I like your ideas and reasoning, especially the second point (vault, dropping to last location). All of you at nq truly have the best for every playstyle in mind.

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Hi everyone! 
So we had an internal discussion on this topic in the team.

THX NQ-Nyzaltar, for your answer, its great to know the NQ team are around taking in consideration what the community thinks! 

 

 We have in the team players who have played many MMORPGs: EVE Online, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter, Archeage, Elder Scrolls Online, Elite Dangerous, Wildstar, etc. So we aren't just looking to the EVE Online model while ignoring completely what has been done elsewhere.

 

Thats nice to know, is always a good thing have different opinions and experience.

 

 

A minimal alien fauna is planned for the official release (and will probably grow in diversity afterwards)

Nice news, it will make the immersion more interesting 

 

Having a few NPC helpers visible in-game for the tutorial is something considered, but we can't promise anything on that topic right now (we have also some ideas for tutorials without involving visible NPCs in the game world).

 

Maybe you could create a "simulator", like the interior of a ship,  A place where player can enter and a holographic character guide him trough the basics information. (Or maybe some sort of star trek holodeck

 

 On a last note, please avoid to reply to other community members in an ironical/provocative way (this doesn't add anything to the discussion)

 

OK, sorry for that, i don't use to be impolite, but i use to deal with humans with the same level of respect they came to me.

 

 

 

Best Regards

 

- Lynkx

=^.^=

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Thanks for the reply Nyzaltar!

 

It sounds like you all have a good plan for how this will work, and I'm glad you are sticking to it. I hope that this thread provided some good feedback about player thoughts on DACs with regards to the EVE changes. It sounds like it has helped reinforce your position, which is good in my opinion.

 

Thank you for your time and keep up the good work

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Love the informed/detailed response Nyzaltar!

 

However, I do have a question... could someone elaborate on the second point?  I don't play EVE, and when I did it wasn't very in depth.  

 

Cosmetics:
If you guys do go down the cosmetic route (it may end up being necessary if DACs don't cut it)... please... please don't ruin the immersion of the game.  So many games have killed their atmosphere by implementing cosmetics that just don't fit with the theme of the game.

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Love the informed/detailed response Nyzaltar!

 

However, I do have a question... could someone elaborate on the second point? I don't play EVE, and when I did it wasn't very in depth.

 

Cosmetics:

If you guys do go down the cosmetic route (it may end up being necessary if DACs don't cut it)... please... please don't ruin the immersion of the game. So many games have killed their atmosphere by implementing cosmetics that just don't fit with the theme of the game.

Can't multiquote on phone (yeah, too lazy too :D) but what it says is:

 

If they implement divisible DACs (weekly, daily tokens to trade for gametime) then you'd have to buy those with your rl-money. They are then sent to a vault, like an external inventory only you can access via your login, and stay there. You can redeem them everywhere you want and use them (in the safe zone for example, to be...Well...safe). But you can also transfer them back to that vault but then this specific DAC is marked with the location and once you want to redeem that dac, you can only do so at the same location you were, when you transformed it back. This prevents people from buying DACs from other players for in-game money, transferring them to the vault, getting to a new location and selling themof for in-game money again. Usually such items are VERY valuable and you can make a lot of money with it. So shipping them for nothing (and perfectly safe!) Is a bad idea. Plus it adds a little danger to the whole DAC thing because you have to know in advance if you want to use it or sell it. And where you want to do this

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I liked the old PLEX system in EVE. It allowed people with RL money to make up for the lose of game time due to working to make that money. Then, those with fewer funds but more time on their hands could purchase these PLEX with currency earned in-game. I bought PLEX from time to time in addition to paying a subscription for those times I really wanted a ship or other equipment but hadn't put in the time to accrue in-game currency. Knowing that doing so was insuring someone who played the game a lot was able to keep on playing was a nice incentive too. Very win-win.

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Can't multiquote on phone (yeah, too lazy too :D) but what it says is:

 

If they implement divisible DACs (weekly, daily tokens to trade for gametime) then you'd have to buy those with your rl-money. They are then sent to a vault, like an external inventory only you can access via your login, and stay there. You can redeem them everywhere you want and use them (in the safe zone for example, to be...Well...safe). But you can also transfer them back to that vault but then this specific DAC is marked with the location and once you want to redeem that dac, you can only do so at the same location you were, when you transformed it back. This prevents people from buying DACs from other players for in-game money, transferring them to the vault, getting to a new location and selling themof for in-game money again. Usually such items are VERY valuable and you can make a lot of money with it. So shipping them for nothing (and perfectly safe!) Is a bad idea. Plus it adds a little danger to the whole DAC thing because you have to know in advance if you want to use it or sell it. And where you want to do this

 

Ah, I see!  Definitely makes a lot of sense.  Thanks

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  • 4 weeks later...

My opinion is to keep the DAC system as proposed on release, trial how it works, and see if changes need to be made. NQ is incredible at following and listening to the community so if DACs cause issues I am confident that they will resolve it promptly with the players best interests in mind.

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My opinion is to keep the DAC system as proposed on release, trial how it works, and see if changes need to be made. NQ is incredible at following and listening to the community so if DACs cause issues I am confident that they will resolve it promptly with the players best interests in mind.

Thing is, people in EVE are generally outraged on the new PLEX system. It's a confusing mess. If you check my early comments on this thread, you'll see why :P

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  • 3 weeks later...

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