The Intrinsic Value of Constructs and Reavers

[bastanold]

In Dual Universe, just about anything players use will have been designed and constructed by players. Aside from the Arkship and the odd ‘relic’ if it’s something players use, it’s also something players made from scratch. Literally. No magic box for placing materials in then pressing a button and Poof! a hovercraft sits before you. Making stuff in Dual Universe will take time, more than a few people, materials and a bit of focus on the tasks at hand. Not to mention the design work needed to figure what needs building and the best way to go about it. For new designs this may result in the development of prototypes for testing and refinement. It all results in significant effort  and thought for creating the items and equipment and structures we intend on using.

 

In time, and after experiencing sufficient loss, the things players go to lengths to create will take on a value beyond their utility. A person will think twice before doing away with an item, given what it took to bring the item into existence. This will only increase, likely exponentially, for larger structures like buildings, stations and large vehicles. The investment deepens as an organization grows and prospers through those creations.

 

That value will translate into wars as well. Organizations will seek to oust the owners of a given property rather than destroy it. Wars of ownership will be more prevalent than wars of destruction. Wars can even resolve with a treaty following a form of payment to the ousted owners in exchange for a transfer of ownership. The alternative would be complete destruction of said property, so cutting one's losses would likely take precedence. Only in the most prejudiced wars would annihilation be uniformly on the agenda.

 

That brings me to those players we have seen who only want to watch the world burn. This type of player will certainly get to do that in Dual Universe, a place where everything out there is built by players and therefore is vulnerable. I’m pretty sure they will be a minority, but of that percentage those players will have absolutely nothing to lose. Stations and ships will have their uses for them but only as a means to an ends. Once their usefulness is ended, these world burners will destroy it. Because of that they will be unlike the vast majority of players in Dual Universe who see the enduring value of what is made.

 

For the sake of this discussion I’ll call these world burners ‘Reavers,’ using Firefly terminology. I suspect if the Reavers in Dual Universe become too numerous that there will be wars against them and they’ll be pretty hard fought struggles. At stake will be literally everything out there not behind a perma-shield. That could actually become a historically significant event in Dual Universe. It could also turn cyclical. 

 

In any case it’s something to think about.

 

[LynkxDev]

 

 

A person will think twice before doing away with an item, given what it took to bring the item into existence.

Not really.. 

There will be blueprints, once you have done the 1st, the others will be automated one only need to provide the necessary mats. 

so many (me included) will buy mats, craft items and sell for living.

 

[bastanold]

It's not as simple as that, LynkxDev. There will be automation involved but it will still be an endeavor to manufacture:

 

http://dualuniverse.gamepedia.com/Builder_Guide

 

And we are still talking about anything capable of being destroyed. 

[mrjacobean]

I like the idea of calling them reavers, as it helps differentiate them from pirates (who are not reavers). Until someone comes up with a better name, Reavers is what I will call them.

[Robert_Brightstar]

I'm guessing if NQ ever reaches the Bounty System stretch goal, then this could probably help with the Reaver situation as bounties are put on their heads to kill them off.

[Hotwingz]

I'm guessing if NQ ever reaches the Bounty System stretch goal, then this could probably help with the Reaver situation as bounties are put on their heads to kill them off.

No, not really.

Such a person doesnt care about anything else but seeing the world burn. Having high bounties on their heads would only encourage them to burn more stuff.

 

Its a bit like the basic troll. They only do it for the lulz.

 

Best is to see them as a force of nature.

You can't conquer nature but you can learn to live with it.

[bastanold]

Agreed, Falstaf. Everyone who plays is immortal. Bounty will be a reputation achievement much like in EVE with certain pirates. 

[Caesares]

In general, I am curious to see how blueprints end up working. I think right now we have a rough idea, but not really a complete picture.

[Lethys]

The way I see it, we won't see massive capital ship fights often....if ever.

There are no orgs (even those Top5) right now who could build a huge ship within a reasonable time (despite the resource problem, manpower, blueprint, detailed plan of the whole thing, and so on). Maybe once the orgs get into thousands and after 1 to 2 years the first capital ships will emerge but I don't see them being deployed. The first ones will have a big, shiny mark on their head that says "PLEASE KILL ME, I'M THE FIRST"

As you said, those assets are a huge investment, take time to build and are prone to .... social failure. So let's take a closer look:

 

Investment:

The price for some capital may sound astronomical high in the first years, but could be pocketchange in the future. The first Titan in EVE was build 2 years after launch and for many years there weren't many around. Nowadays they get thrown into every major fight.

500 Billion Quanta may seem a huge number in the first 5 years but when markets develop and more people join DU this could be the average earning of a smart trader per month. So investment may only be an argument at the first glance.

 

Building time:

To me this is the major factor why we possibly won't see many capital fights. You need time to build a capital in eve too (~2 months) but that's an automated process: dump in materials, get the blueprints, start building, wait 2 months, done. In DU you actually have to build that ship YOURSELF. The major problems I see here are:

- You need a foolproof, rock solid, easy to build design. Otherwise your welding crews will be confused and won't properly build that thing

- Possible need for real plans of those ships (created in acad) and people who really know how to oversee such a construction

- VERY good management of the crews working on that ship. One guy can ruin the work of a week

- If not built in a safezone, you'd need protection 24/7

If those things aren't done properly, that ship will never lift off the ground and you burned your money, your people and your reputation.

 

Social Failure:

Once you have built the ship you need a crew to man it. Lots of crewmembers (I talk about 50+ people here). Besides the problem of timezones, training in different fields of operation on that ship (softskills player wise!), multiple crews because of timezones and every other social problem that arises when dealing with such numbers on ONE ship (communication, ranks, duties,...) you have one huge problem: spies. One member of your crew that was carefully selected could be pissed, be a mole, could have taken money or whatever or simply hate you because you're a bad captain and could decide to kill the core unit of that vessel....Or send word to enemies about the location. Or deactivate the shields in a critical situation. You get the idea.

 

The problem with the first huge constructs is fame. Fame for killing it, one way or the other.

The problem with all following huge constructs is building time, social failures and maybe the meta of DU

 

Everything above can be said too about stations, bases and buildings and heavily depend on game mechanics (shields, timers, ...).

 

post script:

I'm one of those reavers, sometimes. I'm used to making money with an alt and just not caring about anything else then fun with my main. There will be loopholes to put that money in a safe place so there is nothing someone can do to me.

But I'm no evil man - I'm a content creator for myself and everyone else. I make sure your life in DU is hilarious, dangerous and full of excitement (maybe I attack you. Maybe I don't. Depends on shits and giggles ).

[Hotwingz]

post script:

I'm one of those reavers, sometimes. I'm used to making money with an alt and just not caring about anything else then fun with my main. There will be loopholes to put that money in a safe place so there is nothing someone can do to me.

But I'm no evil man - I'm a content creator for myself and everyone else. I make sure your life in DU is hilarious, dangerous and full of excitement (maybe I attack you. Maybe I don't. Depends on shits and giggles ).

Good stuff.

I'm the worst in PvP combat. If I win its because you lagged out.

But we absolutely need players like Lethys.

It makes for a fun game and it keeps the economy going.

[Begogian]

 

Investment:

The price for some capital may sound astronomical high in the first years, but could be pocketchange in the future. The first Titan in EVE was build 2 years after launch and for many years there weren't many around. Nowadays they get thrown into every major fight.

500 Billion Quanta may seem a huge number in the first 5 years but when markets develop and more people join DU this could be the average earning of a smart trader per month. So investment may only be an argument at the first glance.

 

It will be crazy in a few years to look back and realize how much we spend for stupid little items when in 5 years we will be farting 500 Billion Quanta (theoretically, we don't know the costs and prices yet). For the Org that ends up building the first Capital ship, it will probably be in a well developed zone they have control of and will have protection 24/7 if the org is big enough. There are a few small orgs who are dedicating their time to only building themselves Capital ships but we shall see how it plays out in the future. JC did say that building a large ship like in the trailers could take weeks to months.

[Lethys]

Good stuff.

I'm the worst in PvP combat. If I win its because you lagged out.

But we absolutely need players like Lethys.

It makes for a fun game and it keeps the economy going.

 

It doesn't matter if you're good at it or not - it only depends on if you are committed. I won't watch and do nothing while DU dies a slow and inevitable death of boredom, dead economy and risk-averse players who only whine about mechanics but don't use them properly in the first place.

Wars, squabbles, arch enemies and "hate" are a major driving force for a game. The only problem with this is that many many people don't get the whole point of it and start taking it seriously and personally. Those people don't have the right mindset for a mmo imho, because it's not about killing each other and bragging rights (well, to some extent...) but about content for the community as a whole. People whine and cry about "bad pirates killing me all the time" because they don't get what DU is about in the first place. It's a sandbox mmo and you simply can't do stuff all alone. That said, it's perfectly fine if he wants to be secure and just build - that's why there are safe zones - but it's about risk vs reward - so he won't get to see the good stuff like rare resources and at some point he HAS to venture outside to get them. So he needs a group to do so and from there the gameplay emerges in a beautiful spiral up in the sky. If that player doesn't want to adapt to the gameplay and starts whining about stuff then he clearly didn't got the idea of a sandbox.

It's a game and we all want to have fun - so don't take it too serious. I can kill you on friday and help you defend your base on saturday - idgaf. If it's fun, why not.

[El_Nadie]

I don't want to sound redundant but it is again the wish of some people to play solo in a MMO. Of course there will be safe zones but if you want to make any kind of progress you must:

 

 - Interact with other players in terms of commerce to get the items outer the safe zone

 - Or Go take that ores/items by yourself, interacting with other in terms of piracy and other guys flying that area

 

After all behind each character there is a human being and despite those who only want to see the world burn as you stated before normally you can talk to them and then try to negotiate or even achieve some hate because it is not about killing each other at all. Thats the fun of MMO to most people (this and the excitment from risk-reward) and, in my opinion, the primary objective of this kind of game.

 

Short: It gonna be hard to play safe and solo in this kind of MMO and you already knows that when you join it.

 

Edit: As i re-read it probably my comment don't have too much sense at this post but is just a feeling i have the last days after reading some other post.

[mrjacobean]

 

I don't want to sound redundant but it is again the wish of some people to play solo in a MMO. Of course there will be safe zones but if you want to make any kind of progress you must:

 

 - Interact with other players in terms of commerce to get the items outer the safe zone

 - Or Go take that ores/items by yourself, interacting with other in terms of piracy and other guys flying that area

 

After all behind each character there is a human being and despite those who only want to see the world burn as you stated before normally you can talk to them and then try to negotiate or even achieve some hate because it is not about killing each other at all. Thats the fun of MMO to most people (this and the excitment from risk-reward) and, in my opinion, the primary objective of this kind of game.

 

Short: It gonna be hard to play safe and solo in this kind of MMO and you already knows that when you join it.

 

Edit: As i re-read it probably my comment don't have too much sense at this post but is just a feeling i have the last days after reading some other post.

 

Playing solo does not mean avoiding all human interaction. It just means you want to play by yourself. You would treat the other players as NPCs, get the materials you need from the market and make money by acepting player made contracts (deliver this, get us that, kill them). Sometimes you will have to take the bullet and hire a protection team when going through a nasty area of space or work off some debt by helping the navy take out some pirates, but it is very easy to play solo. Also, safety is overrated, you just need a plan B when all hell breaks loose. 

[bastanold]

Heh, I certainly don't think Reavers will be a bad thing for Dual Universe. That's some serious content by players for players. Given what's at stake, it'll have more impact than it does in EVE. That's saying something too. In DU if the Reavers get you the only thing you'll have left is what resurrects in an RN and whatever you stowed away behind an arkshield. It will be brutal at times ... and epic. DU is going to redefine the space MMO. Some days it'll be Space Engineer meets DayZ, other days Minecraft on solo. You'll never know what you're going to get on a given day.

 

It's going to redefine tears and what it means to be a pirate and reaver and on the flip side, an alliance and coalition. I suspect an  alliance/coalition in DU could see a lot more activity and develop a more 'benign' relationship between the wolves and the carebears given that everything out there will have to be built by players. Less of the warbands of EVE and more the Roman Legion with it's daily construction of a fort and consistent concern for fortification and structures.

[Hotwingz]

I guess the main thing to take away is;

Dont take it personal.

 

Thats not to say you have to take things too far. But we are all here to play DU. Some people create, other people destroy and a whole bunch of people are in the middle enjoying their own little story.

 

Safe is boring.

Just think about that time you got frustrated on that level and used cheat codes. The first 5 minutes its a lot of fun but then it all starts to feel pretty pointless.

 

I suspect DU wont be as "cruel" as EVE. Same rules apply though; dont use what you cant afford to loose.

[Begogian]

 

The only problem with this is that many many people don't get the whole point of it and start taking it seriously and personally. Those people don't have the right mindset for a mmo imho, because it's not about killing each other and bragging rights (well, to some extent...) but about content for the community as a whole. People whine and cry about "bad pirates killing me all the time" because they don't get what DU is about in the first place. It's a sandbox mmo and you simply can't do stuff all alone.

 

I hope stuff like this is rarely seen. If people see an MMO like this and come on to play solo, then complain when someone kills them because they ventured into new areas and died, then they don't need to be playing DU. DU is going to be about community building, playing with others, and creating something amazing. If you expect to come online for the first time and announce you want to be peaceful and don't want to fight but then get in the way or disrupt a big org, don't expect them to just be cool with it and move on, some may depending on the situation, but it is that mindset of "Oh, if i say I wanna be peaceful then they have to listen to me and never attack me because that's not how I want to play."

[Hotwingz]

.DU is going to be about community building, playing with others, and creating something amazing

That is what DU is going to be for a lot of people.

But DU is going to be a lot of different things to a lot of different people. 

That doesn't mean these people don't have the right to play DU in their own way. Even if we don't agree with it. 

In my opinion, NQ is providing us with a canvas, its up to all of us to decide how we choose to use it.

 

If a player accepts the basic idea and vision behind DU, being part of the community, paying their sub.

They should be free to play how ever they want within the rules of the game.

Even a solo player contributes in his or her's own way. Bringing life to the game.

 

Although coming on to the forums and demanding Freebuild servers, raids and what not is perhaps not  the smartest thing to do.

[Begogian]

That is what DU is going to be for a lot of people.

But DU is going to be a lot of different things to a lot of different people. 

That doesn't mean these people don't have the right to play DU in their own way. Even if we don't agree with it. 

In my opinion, NQ is providing us with a canvas, its up to all of us to decide how we choose to use it.

 

If a player accepts the basic idea and vision behind DU, being part of the community, paying their sub.

They should be free to play how ever they want within the rules of the game.

Even a solo player contributes in his or her's own way. Bringing life to the game.

 

Although coming on to the forums and demanding Freebuild servers, raids and what not is perhaps not  the smartest thing to do.

 

Oh no, sorry, I didn't mean this is how everyone should play. My bad. I was talking more about the majority but for sure there will be many different play styles for each person. I was just saying I hope people don't come into the game and expect to be shown complete mercy because they claim that is their play style and they don't want to be part of wars even if they are in the middle of them

[Hotwingz]

Oh no, sorry, I didn't mean this is how everyone should play. My bad. I was talking more about the majority but for sure there will be many different play styles for each person. I was just saying I hope people don't come into the game and expect to be shown complete mercy because they claim that is their play style and they don't want to be part of wars even if they are in the middle of them

 

Oh yea man, I totally agree with that.

 

Not to bring up dead cows but during the kickstarter we had a lot of threads screaming to make this game f2p....

There are some lines that just cant be crossed if you know what I mean. 

 

I hear ya.

[Hades]

I really do support this idea of Reavers, as it's something that gets a really bad wrap in most games.  People usually call such a playstyle griefing, when it really isn't.  Or at least, isn't as serious as some griefing.  When I think of griefing, I think of someone going out of their way to single out a single person for no arbitrary reason than to ruin their gameplay.  For example, killing someone as soon as they spawn over and over and over.

[MasteredRed]

I know I'm a little late to this post, but there is some inherit value that shouldn't be overlooked here. Let me start with my own additions to the posts you made.

 

Reavers should definitely become a name for such "world burners" in Dual Universe. There is no doubt about that in my mind.

 

Alright. So the discussion on these matters are correct. I can confirm that with my knowledge, as I'm sure other people can as well. There is inherit value to constructs and property that has built upon in DU. The fact that people can be so insistent on destruction as the way a city falls siege is wrong. In truth though, the destruction of a city would be quite a problem for both the owner, and the person who wishes to conqueror such piece of value.

 

So let us get over to debate about this. When you are looking to consider the cost of building something in DU, you have to take into consideration the cost of the materials, labor, shipping, and even maintenance of the structure over time. The level of detail that is simulated within this game of the real world economics and the value that is taken into consideration overtime is unprecedented. In order to ensure that these constructs do not go unused or their value lost, people will have to think strategically about a coo, social engineering, military conquest, and so forth. You can consider the actions that must be made to be highly calculated.

 

Onto what difficulties are given when these things come about, it does appear that we can theorize that DU will rely heavily on the player workforce. If the workforce dies down, than expansion will start to slow. Eventually, we might have expansion of our constructs stop completely. When that is the case, we might have to prioritize the downscale of operations and carefully choose what to defend and protect. These things may take years, but it is simulated accurately.

 

As well, the finances between what resources cost and what they are charged for mining, extraction, and shipping is a difference that should be made. No real connection. Just wanted to point that out for some people.