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Debate 9: Tech Tree Thoughts


Wilks Checkov

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When I heard that DU will have smth like EVE like skill learning system, actually I was disappointed a little bit, because for me it's a bit strange that giving such variety of options for creation, driving economy, creating so much value on community NQ will still limit people by a generic skill system. 

Probably you won't like the idea, but game without skills in terms of  DU makes much more sense. Because in this case you really can rely only on your hands, your head and people that surround you. In other words if you are a space octopus that can handle manual operation of huge complex thing - what's the reason of limiting your power. Or if you want and can buy some nice ship, why do you need to wait for 1 year to learn skills for it. I know that this may sound stupid, but I can expand my thoughts to explain how it may look like. 

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2 minutes ago, Miamato said:

When I heard that DU will have smth like EVE like skill learning system, actually I was disappointed a little bit, because for me it's a bit strange that giving such variety of options for creation, driving economy, creating so much value on community NQ will still limit people by a generic skill system. 

Probably you won't like the idea, but game without skills in terms of  DU makes much more sense. Because in this case you really can rely only on your hands, your head and people that surround you. In other words if you are a space octopus that can handle manual operation of huge complex thing - what's the reason of limiting your power. Or if you want and can buy some nice ship, why do you need to wait for 1 year to learn skills for it. I know that this may sound stupid, but I can expand my thoughts to explain how it may look like. 

We signed up because this was also an MMORPG. Skill progression prevents people from leaping over hurdles and aquiring a lot of potentially very destructive power very early, and it also limits people's ability to use alts as a weapon.

 

For example, with no skill system to act as a limiter, and my main character had tons of bounties on him making it unsafe to fly in most areas... I could just make an ORG, set all my possesions to "share with ORG" and invite no-one to the org but my alt. Log on as my alt and tada! I've still got all my stuff, but none of my bounties or bad rep. See the problem?

 

Plus skill systems do more than just serve as limiters, they augment. My scanning would not be directly tied to what equipment I was using if my *skill* in scanning improved it. This allows there to be some micro-variation in ore-types and polymers without making more types of equipment or refineries to accommodate for those micro-variations.

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36 minutes ago, wizardoftrash said:

For example, with no skill system to act as a limiter, and my main character had tons of bounties on him making it unsafe to fly in most areas... I could just make an ORG, set all my possesions to "share with ORG" and invite no-one to the org but my alt. Log on as my alt and tada! I've still got all my stuff, but none of my bounties or bad rep. See the problem?

 

This may be easily handled by bounding reputation to account rather then character. On the one hand it may seem unfair, but it adds more personality to the game, as no matter which character you use - you should think twice about your decisions. You still will be able to create one more account, but again there would be a price for it. 

44 minutes ago, wizardoftrash said:

Plus skill systems do more than just serve as limiters, they augment.

Actually I don't mind kind of augmenting skills if they provide slight difference, but they should not limit people in what they can do. Actually this limits would be caused by economic and resource factors. The main reason why I think so, is that skill system is not bad itself, but it leads to some bad practice like account sharing for example. Or if you want to be able to try and progress in some areas you need either spend insane amount of time just for character training or create an army of alts. Both options are not much fun. 

If we speak about benefits,  let's say if you are mining.  you will have spend 20% more time without any skills, but you still are able to get what you want. Or if you are scanning, you should be either pretty good to scan without skills or just need a bit more time, but still able to do that. In other words if you are not in gold rush then you probably won't be able to make perfect profits without skills but still you would be able to supply yourself with all you need just with a bit more effort. 

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2 minutes ago, Miamato said:

This may be easily handled by bounding reputation to account rather then character. On the one hand it may seem unfair, but it adds more personality to the game, as no matter which character you use - you should think twice about your decisions. You still will be able to create one more account, but again there would be a price for it. 

Actually I don't mind kind of augmenting skills if they provide slight difference, but they should not limit people in what they can do. Actually this limits would be caused by economic and resource factors. The main reason why I think so, is that skill system is not bad itself, but it leads to some bad practice like account sharing for example. Or if you want to be able to try and progress in some areas you need either spend insane amount of time just for character training or create an army of alts. Both options are not much fun. 

If we speak about benefits,  let's say if you are mining.  you will have spend 20% more time without any skills, but you still are able to get what you want. Or if you are scanning, you should be either pretty good to scan without skills or just need a bit more time, but still able to do that. In other words if you are not in gold rush then you probably won't be able to make perfect profits without skills but still you would be able to supply yourself with all you need just with a bit more effort. 

First of all, account-sharing is against the rules. that should discourage account sharing.

 

More importantly though, one of the ways to encourage cooperative play and emergent societies is through specialization, which is strongest when there are activities that are literally impossible without a specialized character.

 

Now players will be able to do a bit of everything without any specialization, that's already been discussed. However what limiters will permit is professions. For example, right out of the gate we are both level 1 and can do base activities at a low level. We can both scan for a limited selection of resources (like Iron) and refine them. As a group, we would be at an advantage though if I trained in Scanning and you trained in Refining, since then I would be able to locate a wider range of elements, and you would be able to refine them into more advanced polimers. Suddenly a team of 2 is able to build tougher constructs than if 2 people each stayed more generalized. Sure both players in the group could each train in scanning AND refining, but a group that specializes is making more advanced polymers at an earlier stage of the game. A group of 6 or 7 would be able to optimally perform every task in building a construct going from 0 to complete product, and an individual player who is dabbling in each of those skills would be performing several tiers lower *in addition to* having 1/7th of the actual manpower.

 

And that's exactly it. By implementing a limitation-based skill system, you are encouraging cooperative play and specialization by rewarding groups where each member picks a job. This is sort of how civilizations are formed, and this style of play aligns with the game's slogan "Rebuilding Civilization Together"

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10 minutes ago, wizardoftrash said:

First of all, account-sharing is against the rules. that should discourage account sharing.

That is correct but in real world it's widely used and such accounts may be banned only in case of direct petitions against them or in case of some fraud or RMT. 

11 minutes ago, wizardoftrash said:

More importantly though, one of the ways to encourage cooperative play and emergent societies is through specialization, which is strongest when there are activities that are literally impossible without a specialized character.

I understand the purpose of it, and agree this is proved to be working. What I was thinking about is to make this specialization less dependent on ingame skill system but more on player personal skills. In other words if you are scanning for some ore - you should not just have a proper skill, but rather depending on ore rarity know theory how and where to find it, be successful at scanning minigame, etc. This will add more value for your actual game play knowledge and make people keep secrets inside their corporation about some special algorithms that work better to achieve some resources, design vehicles, etc. 

Anyway it's just one of options :) 

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9 hours ago, Hostage said:

I like skill dependent games because there is more realism. You can't be a master at everything without the dedicated time. I'm sorry but with games that have little to no skill progression they are horrible.

Yea its another version of GOD mode in a game with out even having to work for it and that would get boring fast but I also hate games that make you grind forever that also gets boring !

I  just hope they have good balance with customization and  the ability to pick and focus on your specialty with what ever skill system they decide to go with in the end ! 

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Moreover, and IMO, I would like to see some "Empire Tech Tree". I think it will be a good way to push players to cooperate in civilization-like society. As an exemple, depending the size of a society and its goal, it should be interesting too see some tech tree very long and elaborate for social and building skills, (including territorial skill maybe ?), a less expansive tree for pirate or mercenary organisation with less people and different goal, etc... As I say, it's just an idea without good exemple, but I think that people needs a common goal and then, a common progression. When a society evolve, everyone inside evolve too. 

Sorry for my poor english at least.

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On 9/25/2017 at 6:04 PM, KlatuSatori said:

I can't speak for OP, but it seems this topic was about tech and yet most people are talking mainly about skills - two completely different things.  Granted the same structures can be implemented for both, but different mechanisms can be used for their exploitation and discovery.

 

For example, it probably makes sense to have a deterministic, player driven approach to individual character skills development, ala Eve Online.  Technology advancement should be a lot more mysterious though, driven by an unknown combination discoveries, cooperation, random chance, dedicated research and more.

I think that they should be intrinsically linked. All skills we have as humans are linked to the technology involved such as farming is to a rake or a hoe, as there is a skill in crafting the rake or a hoe. Which is I'm trying to say that if you have three entities that represent this. You have the knowledge of the technology unlocked, the skill to craft it at higher and higher qualities, and the skill to use it with higher and higher levels of skill and bonuses. Build your tech tree off of that and the tech tree leads different webs of related professional skills and tech.

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On 27.9.2017 at 4:30 PM, Miamato said:

I understand the purpose of it, and agree this is proved to be working. What I was thinking about is to make this specialization less dependent on ingame skill system but more on player personal skills. In other words if you are scanning for some ore - you should not just have a proper skill, but rather depending on ore rarity know theory how and where to find it, be successful at scanning minigame, etc. This will add more value for your actual game play knowledge and make people keep secrets inside their corporation about some special algorithms that work better to achieve some resources, design vehicles, etc. 

Anyway it's just one of options :)

Seems there is already personal skill. 21:00-27:00

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