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Non Lethal Training Weapons

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I know something like this is far from priorities but wouldn't it be great to have some kind of dummy gun? You can fire it, it make sounds and simulates the impact without hurting anyone. You could use it in training facilities built by your faction, mock battles and military drills in general. Maybe even for play like paintball if players are creative enough. 

 

What do you guys think about a training gun in general? I'd like to hear everyone's reasoning for why it's good/bad/whatever. 

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As extra gadget maybe way way way later - why not.

 

Don't know why it would be more than cosmetic though, because hitting is emulated and depends solely on chances (skills, range, gun modifier, ammo modifier, etc. ) so there is no need for training in the sense of "We must train how to use those guns properly because we have no clue how to shoot".

 

so yeah, maybe not at release :P

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Maybe, for player characters who've never fired a gun before, this will give them say, like 5 skill points towards being a soldier/gunner/etc. Something to get them jumpstarted on their way. They've simply gotta train with the fake one. Would give it more purpose, certainly.

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Maybe, for player characters who've never fired a gun before, this will give them say, like 5 skill points towards being a soldier/gunner/etc. Something to get them jumpstarted on their way.

Lol. nope. The 4 starting "races" of DU take care of the jumpstrating on a specific path. Alphas are the "race" that is combat oriented while the Emporium is the "Race" geared towards trading ( go figure? :P ).. Skillpoint rewards is what EVE shot in the head with a shotgun, cause it made the game grindy on levelling. The only real difference is on attribute allocation in a skillt-trainign system like DU's, where training is passive, but learning the game's mechanics is what the real expertise shows.

 

You can teach a person how and when to shoot at someone, what the benefit or rapid fire versus long-range weaponry is, how to fit their armor and - hopefully - guns in DU for being more effective at their role, but training them with "hold this gun, get SPs" won't teach them anything.

 

I learned how to play EVE by being taken by the hand and then thrust into a roaming fleet on day 3 in the game. Same deal goes for DU. Get newbros, give them guns and armor they can use, teach them what each module of the armor does and what the benefits of tanking an armor is versus making it a galss cannon and then take them out for live combat.

 

Their armors will cost you almost nothing (similar to starting ships for EVE) but the real value is on the newbro being taught HOW to play the game by PLAYING the game, not pretending to be in boot camp or being treated like a toddler with rewards for doing a simple thing like "hold a gun".

 

Just saying.

 

As an example, when I started EVE, I wanted to play a sniper class - sniper meaning engaging a target at distances they can't even lock-on to me, let alone shoot me. But I had zero clue. Then, a person explained to me what sensor boosters are, what scripts for boosters are, what tracking computers were and their scripts associated (specialised buffs, not actual scripts) and what kind of weapons should I fit on my ship to make it fire as well as WHAT ship I should use for my low Skillpoints.

 

Sensors in EVE, are like "Scopes" on a gun. They can be tuned for higher lock-on speeds with Scan Resolution, and Targeting Range scripts to well, exactly what it sounds, doubling the effect, while nullifying the other two effects. Tracking computers (pretty much the barrel type of a gun in conventional terms) had "tracking" and "optimal" range scripts, one makes the tracking computer turng the weapons faster to make the ship able to have a closer fight capability, while the other extended my damage ranges. There are also Supresssion Targeting systems that are no differnt than suppressors for a game like DU on a gun - doesn't allert the opponent of you locking them.

 

By the end of my "class" I knew how to fit the ship I wanted, as well as the difference between a carbide railgun, an acceleration scout cannon and a Gauss Gun was, as well as why certain ammo types were better for different jobs - oh yeah, one ammo may reach further, but also do less damage.

 

Then I went in Null-Sec with a seasoned group, was blown to bits and then I did the fitting of dirt-cheap ship all oever again. That way, I learned how to not die horribly :P

 

At no point the game told me "here, have 5000 SPs because you put on your own pampers! Good boy! ".

 

 

 

As for the OP's post, why have paintball battles, when you can have actual battles??

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Yeah i think everyone want actual battles for sure, i'm thinking of this as a way to simulate battle mainly for the sake of tactical movement of troops rather than the shooting itself.

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Yeah i think everyone want actual battles for sure, i'm thinking of this as a way to simulate battle mainly for the sake of tactical movement of troops rather than the shooting itself.

Oh, that?Simple, get them out on a field and have a good old NPSI battle (Not Purple? Shoot It), in essence, one alliance, two fleets, staging a fight with each other for fun or training purposes, Purple referring to a person who's part of your fleet, so, whoever isn't, just shoot them.

 

People get to fight, money is spent, the market flourishes and people are not bored because they joined Yawn Federation, as even in an  NPSI battle, they still get to shoot stuff and be trained for different scenarios by veterans.

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Oh, that?Simple, get them out on a field and have a good old NPSI battle (Not Purple? Shoot It), in essence, one alliance, two fleets, staging a fight with each other for fun or training purposes, Purple referring to a person who's part of your fleet, so, whoever isn't, just shoot them.

 

People get to fight, money is spent, the market flourishes and people are not bored because they joined Yawn Federation, as even in an  NPSI battle, they still get to shoot stuff and be trained for different scenarios by veterans.

Well of course there are other ways to go about it but it wouldn't be the same experience. A lot of people love elaborate drills, i'm not an EVE player but i talk from ARMA 3 experience. I know here's a lot of people playing or has played ARMA before who are going to play DU. Planetside people as well, etc. When it comes to ground based combat since it's not necessarily in everyone's interest to a fight in space with a fleet, i was talking about guns for players on the ground not for their ships really.

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Well of course there are other ways to go about it but it wouldn't be the same experience. A lot of people love elaborate drills, i'm not an EVE player but i talk from ARMA 3 experience. I know here's a lot of people playing or has played ARMA before who are going to play DU. Planetside people as well, etc. When it comes to ground based combat since it's not necessarily in everyone's interest to a fight in space with a fleet, i was talking about guns for players on the ground not for their ships really.

Well, that's what I'm saying though, Ships in EVE, are more like Classes. You hop into a sniper ship, you are a sniper with role bonuses on the Ship / Class to boost your effectiveness. I just into a Logistics (healer) ship, I get bonuses on armor maintenance or Shield Boosting. Same will go for DU - although I hope it's far more modular, case in point, able to mix and match guns with their customisability to armors that had their won customisability and detail.

 

Giving a dirt-cheap ship to a newbro in EVE, would not be any differetn that giving a light armor to a newbro in DU not even the good light armors, like some spec-ops armors that can make you invisibile to Directional Scans, just an armor that gives a boost on shields or armor or something.

 

For all EVE claims to be a sci-fi space game, it's nothing more than a fantasy MMO with a Sci-Fi skin :P All the tropes exist there, but also, it has the added bonus of tactical thinking that only exists in Real-Time strategy. Cause that is exactly what Fleet Commanders do in EVE, they find a poor sap in the enemy fleet - the healers :P - and they say "yo, A-N-A-X (my EVE Toon's initials on his name), focus" and if I was trained well, I wil lbe already mvoing left and right to increase my dodge chance against shots - until the Stealth Bombers come and take me out of the fight, which requires our Webifiers (guys who slow down ships) to do their jobs, the moment the bombers enter firing range.

 

This kind of tactics, require NPSI training to pull off, especially on coordinating Alpha damage drops on targets. 

 

And DU can take it a mile further, by its first person combat and its active lock-on system, but some asepcts will still be there, mainly, the need for NPSI training platoons or groups, as in "today, Group A will be the boarding party, while Group B is the ship's crew", both sides have been given a guidebook for certain lingo so the commander doesn't have to explain long and complex plans, and both get to practise their knowledge.

 

Really, what I hope DU becomes, is the best part of EVE, that being, it's an MMO RTS for the military directors of an alliance, while it's capitalism simulator for traders and w/e the RP people want out of it, I don't know.

 

In any case, I am a simple man, I'll go Shotgun Training V, hopefully have a choke attachment for the shotgun, cause I like myself some close quarters, and until swords come in Shotguns are the closest of quarters I can get :P

 

Just saying, don't ask for training to be boring. It's not the real world. You can set up live firearms training scenarios. And if loot drops instead of beign destoryed - unlike in EVE, where gear being destroyed is due to ships exploding - you could salvage the dead guys' gear, while rewarding the ones who got most kills in the training with rewards.

 

Hey, it's a plam =shrug=

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Yeah, you got valid points but i think you misunderstand the training itself, for you it might sound boring to have non-lethal weapon drills with squads on the ground. Doesn't matter if its close to real life or fictional as heck. The reason i presented the idea is because there's a lot of people who love realistic troop tactics, commanding your guys to move around a set up training area to avoid enemy fire and rendezvous at a certain point. Returning fire and other stuff. Having this done by two generals against each-other as a mock battle scenario, etc. 

 

I understand that some would find this boring but there's those who wouldn't. You can always leave room for both ways of doing it to cover more of the player base. 

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Yeah, you got valid points but i think you misunderstand the training itself, for you it might sound boring to have non-lethal weapon drills with squads on the ground. Doesn't matter if its close to real life or fictional as heck. The reason i presented the idea is because there's a lot of people who love realistic troop tactics, commanding your guys to move around a set up training area to avoid enemy fire and rendezvous at a certain point. Returning fire and other stuff. Having this done by two generals against each-other as a mock battle scenario, etc. 

 

I understand that some would find this boring but there's those who wouldn't. You can always leave room for both ways of doing it to cover more of the player base. 

Wel then, it wouldn't be any issue for NQ to have that in-game.Maybe a combination of "drill armor" and "drill guns" , that if you get "Hit" certain times your toon goes down as it died, but you recover after a while and become immune to the "drill guns".

 

 

That would take care of all your stuff I guess if it was implemented. But still, a mock battle would not do anything differently than actual NPSI training fleets. You would still show people a map let's say on monday, and select promising squad leaders, then issue a doc file with actual orders and lingo and on a saturday at 7:00 PM Server-Time (GMT) you set up the battle and people get to practise what they were told to study.

 

Squad leaders then are evaluated because their team performed better than someone else's - case in point, they got more people out ofthe battle alive and players are assigned and offered gear to train into a specific role they performed better, like medical or engineering ,or explosives. You can have training guns, but you can't have training grenades or rocket launchers with the intend of killing another player :P

 

And it also has the benefit of teaching newbros that dying is part of the game and they should become numb to it. I blew up 10 times in EVE before I became numb to it. Some others, just still rage when they die. That creates a healthy organisation as well, it can lead to a healthy alliance, being chill when losing assets.

 

Just saying, if you have mock battles, people will get the idea that "dying makes me noob" which is not the case.

 

 

P.S. : 

 

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I get the feeling you have a vastly different perspective, for example the main purpose of this thing wouldn't be to put total newbies into it but rather exercise already formed military, dying wouldn't be presented as something only "a noob does". But rather help with finding ways to pull off a strat and/or tactic with maximized speed and minimal loss. And yet again it doesn't fit to look at mock battles from the perspective of a fleet since i've presented it as between ground troops, infantry if you may. 

 

There are many different ways to use this, not everything is covered by your scenario. Also you don't need training armor or grenades really, a creative commander can make good use of simple means like a fake rifle. I don't disagree with you on everything but i think you are underestimating peoples creativity and enthusiasm when it comes to developing ground forces.

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I get the feeling you have a vastly different perspective, for example the main purpose of this thing wouldn't be to put total newbies into it but rather exercise already formed military, dying wouldn't be presented as something only "a noob does". But rather help with finding ways to pull off a strat and/or tactic with maximized speed and minimal loss. And yet again it doesn't fit to look at mock battles from the perspective of a fleet since i've presented it as between ground troops, infantry if you may.

 

There are many different ways to use this, not everything is covered by your scenario. Also you don't need training armor or grenades really, a creative commander can make good use of simple means like a fake rifle. I don't disagree with you on everything but i think you are underestimating peoples creativity and enthusiasm when it comes to developing ground forces.

So you don't need those guns for training hitting youryour opponent, cause that's plain useless, but you want it because of tactics? Sorry but that doesn't make sense (as twerk already pointed out) because

 

- In such trainings you decide on strategy (no use for a paint gun)

- you want to know what kind of weapons (sniper, assault, minimum, whatever) does how much damage to what kind of armor (none, light, heavy, power, whatever)

- you want to know how many guys you need to take out a certain opponent reliably

 

Still, I don't see the need except as cosmetic and perhaps some tournament.

And no, I don't feel like the devs should implement some kind of virtual dmg that paint gun does in order for them to be useful. There are more pressing issues

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So you don't need those guns for training hitting youryour opponent, cause that's plain useless, but you want it because of tactics? Sorry but that doesn't make sense (as twerk already pointed out) because

 

- In such trainings you decide on strategy (no use for a paint gun)

- you want to know what kind of weapons (sniper, assault, minimum, whatever) does how much damage to what kind of armor (none, light, heavy, power, whatever)

- you want to know how many guys you need to take out a certain opponent reliably

 

Still, I don't see the need except as cosmetic and perhaps some tournament.

And no, I don't feel like the devs should implement some kind of virtual dmg that paint gun does in order for them to be useful. There are more pressing issues

Well of course you can make exercises without guns, something i intend to do in game to the extent possible. The reason for the guns were to give the impression of being fired at through sound and visuals but not doing damage, it ups the simulation.

 

And well since you said "there are more pressing issues" look at the original posts first sentence where i open with acknowledging how far from a priority it would be.

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Well of course you can make exercises without guns, something i intend to do in game to the extent possible. The reason for the guns were to give the impression of being fired at through sound and visuals but not doing damage, it ups the simulation.

 

And well since you said "there are more pressing issues" look at the original posts first sentence where i open with acknowledging how far from a priority it would be.

That was merely a statement for the implementation of virtual dmg, not the gun itself.

 

For tactics you'd want actual guns that do dmg because of said reasons. Or none at all, because you'd only train situational behavior, who has to go where, who runs right/left, how you communicate in a proper manner and so on

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That was merely a statement for the implementation of virtual dmg, not the gun itself.

 

For tactics you'd want actual guns that do dmg because of said reasons. Or none at all, because you'd only train situational behavior, who has to go where, who runs right/left, how you communicate in a proper manner and so on

Yes, the idea was for the guns to increase the flavour of it (player experience), not to have a big pratical use. Which is why i had the opening sentence being what it is.

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I know something like this is far from priorities but wouldn't it be great to have some kind of dummy gun? You can fire it, it make sounds and simulates the impact without hurting anyone. You could use it in training facilities built by your faction, mock battles and military drills in general. Maybe even for play like paintball if players are creative enough. 

 

What do you guys think about a training gun in general? I'd like to hear everyone's reasoning for why it's good/bad/whatever. 

 

This is an interesting idea. I could see it maybe being some sort of cosmetic item way down the line, like Lethys said. The only thing that I would point out is that it seems a bit redundant. When you think about it, all the guns in DU are already dummy guns, as in they don't actually hurt anyone in real life, and "death" within the game just means a quick respawn. Wouldn't it make sense to just do training and paintball (excellent idea by the way) with live targets and guns? You could have every one who is participating only carry what they need and then slap down a respawn node right next to the area. So even if they "die" within the game, there are no real consequences, real or virtual.

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This is an interesting idea. I could see it maybe being some sort of cosmetic item way down the line, like Lethys said. The only thing that I would point out is that it seems a bit redundant. When you think about it, all the guns in DU are already dummy guns, as in they don't actually hurt anyone in real life, and "death" within the game just means a quick respawn. Wouldn't it make sense to just do training and paintball (excellent idea by the way) with live targets and guns? You could have every one who is participating only carry what they need and then slap down a respawn node right next to the area. So even if they "die" within the game, there are no real consequences, real or virtual.

Yeah a lot of the reasons why i wanted non lethal is because the drawbacks would be too large with them, but working around that with respawn nodes might be a good fix. As for they dont hurt anyone in real life anyways, i mean thats pretty obvious and not the point. But the rest were good points.

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Yeah a lot of the reasons why i wanted non lethal is because the drawbacks would be too large with them, but working around that with respawn nodes might be a good fix. As for they dont hurt anyone in real life anyways, i mean thats pretty obvious and not the point. But the rest were good points.

 

Yeah I know that's pretty obvious. My point was that non-lethal weapons are used in real life because the consequences of death are extreme, whereas in DU the consequences are basically zero, so from a functional perspective dummy guns are kind of pointless. Unless you are talking about something like a taser, which would be a good addition as it would allow you to incapacitate people without killing them, so as to hold them hostage or negotiate with them or just make them watch as you destroy their ship. 

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Yeah I know that's pretty obvious. My point was that non-lethal weapons are used in real life because the consequences of death are extreme, whereas in DU the consequences are basically zero, so from a functional perspective dummy guns are kind of pointless. Unless you are talking about something like a taser, which would be a good addition as it would allow you to incapacitate people without killing them, so as to hold them hostage or negotiate with them or just make them watch as you destroy their ship. 

Good explenation of the real life reference, i was considering the incapacitate option but it could be abuse to disable enemies in real battles then and would have to be a weapon meant for that use aswell.

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....whereas in DU the consequences are basically zero....

 

I have been off the forums for a while, (work, and training for work,) but I know that consequences of dying was a topic a few months ago. I don't know if NQ ever weighed in on the subject, but it was suggested that there be a penalty of some kind for dying, possibly even losing skill points.

 

If they do implement something like that, I would say the consequences of dying would more than justify the development of simulation weapons.

 

Besides, I happen to agree with the OP, it would be cool to have the option of organizing non-lethal matches for strategy training.

 

Plus, what if you want to train in multiple biomes / terrains? It would be really expensive to place a spawn point at every location you want to practice in.

 

Overall, it wouldn't hurt those who don't want it, so why not give people the option?

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