Jump to content
bastanold

Nomadic Life in Dual Universe

Recommended Posts

I've long had an interest in nomadic life, have read a fair number of books on nomads throughout history and even stayed in Mongolia for a month in '93. The most interesting fact about Mongolia for me was that no one owns the land. People can rent a patch of land to pitch their ger(Mongolian felt tent) on if they live in a township, but outside of that no one owns property per se. Among the Mongolians that still follow their herds what they own is seasonal and has to do with rights to pasture and water. In winter this also applies to shelter where extra hay is stored for the herds.

 

Here on earth nomads basically follow their herds to pasturage dependent on season and geography. This results in cyclical patterns of movement as the pasture is depleted and the herds move on to other pasturage. Nomads may alter these routes when other locales prove ideal for an upcoming season, but by and large these patterns take on a proprietary nature for a group of nomads. The routes of pasturage were often the cause of wars between nomadic peoples as droughts altered the geography. 

 

The sedentary peoples were often viewed with contempt by nomads. For one, they ate 'grass' like the herds due to farming for their food. Then they took up so much of the land as to deny space to move. In fact, sedentary people put claim on the land itself. Sedentary people were like vast herds of humans, stuck in the same pasture year round. A nomad found this extremely disgusting, even distressing to conceive. It was inhuman to consider such a life of filth and misery.

 

Now, how would this be translated into Dual Universe? I can see space-faring nomads here primarily because of the voxel-creation process. In Dual Universe, if you think of it you may very well be able to build it. Even ISS Wandering Mountain is on to this idea with a mobile station of sorts. Space-faring nomads will need 'pasturage' that can likely be found in asteroid belts, rather than planets, for easy access. Planets will have their uses for resources but asteroid belts will be far more accessible and less compromising in terms of combat(and maybe the gravity well will be a concern too). Asteroid belts may also vary in terms of what sort of ores and resources can be harvested. Maybe gas giants can be 'skimmed' for compounds in volume by nomadic skimmerships.

 

With space-faring nomads there is no limit other than finding resources for whatever you need. You can go where you please without concern of a logistics tether. There are many ways to envision such a group. One can consider the mothership idea that ISS Wandering Mountain aspires to but a series of smaller clan-ships might provide more flexibility as well as more tactical and operational options.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A group of people can certainly try to live off of just a single ship, and indeed there are orgs that want to do that, like the Blue Moon. The issue is there will be other people that want those resources too. As you said, nomad tribes would sometimes fight with each other. You can bet that if a decently well armed ship trying to mine some resources stumbles across a less armed ship doing the same thing, there's going to be conflict.

 

Undoubtedly there will be people that will spend all their time on a ship, never settling on a base. Perhaps a Migrant Fleet or a lone little cruiser. Either way, it's a cool way to play, and it might work out well, but if you have all of your stuff with you and you go out on your own all the time, there's a good chance you'll find trouble.

 

It's a high risk/reward system... I'm sure some people wouldn't have it any other way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In my opinion, ATMLVE has said all relevant. I am also of the opinion, that it is an exciting playstyle. Nothing comes from nothing. In the end, you see what you have done. I think it is also a matter of time, when you get to the game. At the beginning, everything will still be under construction and the nomadic life will be a bit quieter. The later you get to it, the more difficult it could become. Especially when territories have formed as well as the characters with abilities. If you come later, I would be looking for an organization early to train the skill points before tackling a nomadic life.

 

The only thing I would add for nomadic life:

Each of your mistakes will be punished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This will all depend on whether or not certain infrastructure features will be station-only. In games like Space Engineers or Starmade, a player can live entirely out of a ship because you can build almost everything for any play style into a ship.

 

There are some serious limitations though, for example in Starmade, you only benefit from build protections for pvp purposes in your home sector, at your home base, and any ship docked to it also gets that protection. You can't actually protect an undocked ship, so for a nomadic lifestyle you would HAVE to set up a tiny station to dock your ship to, and claim whatever sector you are in to get home base protection.

 

Space engineers makes it possible to have a mothership style base with role-specific ships that can be unlocked for certain activities. I had toyed around for a while with a ship design like that, a large "jump ship" station with almost no propulsion, but with medium-sized miners and fighters attached. The mother ship could handle all of the actual industry tasks such as refining and assembling without a station.

 

For this to really work for Dual Universe, there needs to be a way to protect a ship from pvp while AFK, or you'll need to be dropping your ship off in safe zones while afk, and from what we've seen so far from the devs, it seems like getting into space PERIOD will take a while. I think having a nomad lifestyle will actually be easier late-game than it will be early game, as time goes on there will be more infrastructure in space that will allow for shelter, and there may even be an update in the future for space territory unit safe zones that can shield nomads. For now though, it seems like most of the early game play will be terrestrial and permanent structure focused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another idea for 'safe pasturage' with nomad orgs is if there are alien ruins in an asteroid field or in deep space that can activate into a safe zone bubble. That would definitely qualify as a 'pasturage' point. If there are other nomad groups it might even be rent-able should the owner be a nomad-friendly group. I think I'll put this in the idea forum too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main problem I see with the idea of recurring patterns of pasturage is that in real life, nomadic lifestyles are based on giving the area time to regenerate it's resources (like the grass and trees), but in DU the resources won't regenerate. So you could stay at an area for a while until you've mined most of the resources and move on, but when you come back that areas still going to be just depleted as it was when you left, so why come back at all? It seems to me that the real nomadic lifestyle in DU would be to just keep moving on and never returning to an area. Of course, since it is designed to be difficult to advance between systems that would mean you would either spend lot's of time travelling between systems or building stargates. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main problem I see with the idea of recurring patterns of pasturage is that in real life, nomadic lifestyles are based on giving the area time to regenerate it's resources (like the grass and trees), but in DU the resources won't regenerate. So you could stay at an area for a while until you've mined most of the resources and move on, but when you come back that areas still going to be just depleted as it was when you left, so why come back at all? It seems to me that the real nomadic lifestyle in DU would be to just keep moving on and never returning to an area. Of course, since it is designed to be difficult to advance between systems that would mean you would either spend lot's of time travelling between systems or building stargates. 

 

 

 

Now, how would this be translated into Dual Universe? I can see space-faring nomads here primarily because of the voxel-creation process. In Dual Universe, if you think of it you may very well be able to build it. Even ISS Wandering Mountain is on to this idea with a mobile station of sorts. Space-faring nomads will need 'pasturage' that can likely be found in asteroid belts, rather than planets, for easy access. Planets will have their uses for resources but asteroid belts will be far more accessible and less compromising in terms of combat(and maybe the gravity well will be a concern too). Asteroid belts may also vary in terms of what sort of ores and resources can be harvested. Maybe gas giants can be 'skimmed' for compounds in volume by nomadic skimmerships.
 

 

Just like Void and ATMLVE said, any Nomadic Org would need to be very well protected/guarded, and would need to keep moving in a forward direction. The issue with this is it would lose the title "Nomadic." You would just become a small organization that survives with a single ship. No matter what, your progression in the game, instead of a repeating circle, would be a continuous line away from Alioth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-When you log off your ship doesnt disappear

To protect it while you're offline, you need to set up a territory control unit.

To avoid people moving their claim continuosly, there'll probably be a price to pay when you place one that you can't recover when you remove he claim

 

If inventories will have mass, moving with you all your stuff would be costly both in terms of fuel consumption and in terms of ship's performances

 

It will be possible but very inefficient, probably realistically viable with a small ship only

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did remember hearing that JC was thinking of shield protection for objects that would be invulnerable for 24hrs regardless of the owner's presence. If a nomadic fleet was holding station in space and had those shields up they're fine at least for 24 hrs. Like anything else in the game inactivity will bite you in the long run. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did remember hearing that JC was thinking of shield protection for objects that would be invulnerable for 24hrs regardless of the owner's presence. If a nomadic fleet was holding station in space and had those shields up they're fine at least for 24 hrs. Like anything else in the game inactivity will bite you in the long run.

It's 48h for now and it's more like the reinforcement timer in eve. That shield needs fuel. As long as it has fuel, it protects. If attacked, it enters reinforce and after 48h you can kill it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see a problem with a nomadic fleet so long as it's centered around a mothership structure, essentially a mobile station. The problem comes with determining the properties of a 'mobile' station.

 

Conventional stations and other large territorial objects are usually attacked according to a set procedure to assure fairness for those owning said objects. It usually requires a timer once the territorial object has received a requisite amount of damage. The territorial object remains in stasis(and invulnerable) for set amount of time then returns to vulnerable status and the territorial object is allowed to repair, or be repaired. That way owners of the object are given the time needed to reinforce their territorial object from attack with whatever assets they can bring to bear. The attackers wait until the timer runs out and show up to finish what they started, but with the presence of a proper defensive force to protect the territorial object.

 

A mothership as mobile station would be awkward with this procedure. For one, the station can move. If it can move, then how does the timer work and do you even want a timer going if the attacking fleet is entirely manageable? One answer to this is to add one other condition should the requisite amount of damage be incurred on the mobile station: disable propulsion. Now, one could say the mothership was attacked heavily enough that not only were shields critically damaged, the engines were also brought offline. Makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a few questions if I were to live a nomadic/hermit life.

 

Space travel - I build a spaceship.....is it only fast enough to move between planetary systems or can they travel to another star system and is there a top speed?  I keep hearing the word Stargate and wonder is this the only way we can move to a star system?  Are there no warp drives or something we can acquire/develop later on?

 

Defense against aggressors - a ship should have shields, and if the "owner" of the ship is offline and the ship is attacked, then the shields would kick in and last 24 hrs (assuming it has enough power to maintain the shields) and go down after 24hrs UNLESS the owner logs back in, which would then reset the timer when the player logs offline again.  Eventually the shields can be overcome or player runs out of resources/power to maintain the shields but I think it would suffice to keep the ship safe from a couple of stray troublemakers while the player is offline.

 

Food supply - is this a non issue?

 

Death - ok, so I have my ship, I'm flying away minding my own business and BOOM...i get attacked and die.  Do I respawn on my ship if I have a RN on it?  What if the ship is destroyed with the RN and I'm like 4 star systems away....where do I respawn, back at the Arkship?  That doesn't make much sense.  My conciousness is traveling back several light years back to the start?

 

Just some of my thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a few questions if I were to live a nomadic/hermit life.

 

Space travel - I build a spaceship.....is it only fast enough to move between planetary systems or can they travel to another star system and is there a top speed?  I keep hearing the word Stargate and wonder is this the only way we can move to a star system?  Are there no warp drives or something we can acquire/develop later on?

 

Defense against aggressors - a ship should have shields, and if the "owner" of the ship is offline and the ship is attacked, then the shields would kick in and last 24 hrs (assuming it has enough power to maintain the shields) and go down after 24hrs UNLESS the owner logs back in, which would then reset the timer when the player logs offline again.  Eventually the shields can be overcome or player runs out of resources/power to maintain the shields but I think it would suffice to keep the ship safe from a couple of stray troublemakers while the player is offline.

 

Food supply - is this a non issue?

 

Death - ok, so I have my ship, I'm flying away minding my own business and BOOM...i get attacked and die.  Do I respawn on my ship if I have a RN on it?  What if the ship is destroyed with the RN and I'm like 4 star systems away....where do I respawn, back at the Arkship?  That doesn't make much sense.  My conciousness is traveling back several light years back to the start?

 

Just some of my thoughts.

You get a choice of respawning on your Corp / Personal RN, or the Arkship's - public - RN.

 

Warp is not "125213651261 AUs per milisecond" . Takes time. The word is it would take a week to a month to get to another star system at max warp. They speak of stargates that act like quantum wormholes betwen star systems and a probe system - the probes travel at the speed of warp, so again, a month to a week for them to land, enabling for a jump to them. Witohut warp, planet to planet travel will takes , again, days or a week. But with warp it can become a tens of minutes worth of a process - you know, so piracy can be a thing as well. The game has a unique tech behind that makes the vastness of space actual p unlike EVE, which is a collage of instances per server-system.

 

Food is not certain, or any "fuel for the player". Only word is players use calories to power their nanoformer, any and all claims after thatt are assumptions. Calories, require food or a source of "fuel" to build on them.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You get a choice of respawning on your Corp / Personal RN, or the Arkship's - public - RN.

 

Warp is not "125213651261 AUs per milisecond" . Takes time. The word is it would take a week to a month to get to another star system at max warp. They speak of stargates that act like quantum wormholes betwen star systems and a probe system - the probes travel at the speed of warp, so again, a month to a week for them to land, enabling for a jump to them. Witohut warp, planet to planet travel will takes , again, days or a week. But with warp it can become a tens of minutes worth of a process - you know, so piracy can be a thing as well. The game has a unique tech behind that makes the vastness of space actual p unlike EVE, which is a collage of instances per server-system.

 

Food is not certain, or any "fuel for the player". Only word is players use calories to power their nanoformer, any and all claims after thatt are assumptions. Calories, require food or a source of "fuel" to build on them.

 

Ok, a couple of follow up questions.

 

So we'll get a personal RN when we start the game or is it something we have to build; also is there a limit to how many we can have?  Same question for Corp RN.

 

It seems that stargates may become campsites for pirates and such.  Does a stargate belong to the player/corp who placed it there; can they build defenses to protect the general area around the stargate?

 

Beware of cannibalism for fuel/food (not  a question)   :blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, a couple of follow up questions.

 

So we'll get a personal RN when we start the game or is it something we have to build; also is there a limit to how many we can have? Same question for Corp RN.

 

It seems that stargates may become campsites for pirates and such. Does a stargate belong to the player/corp who placed it there; can they build defenses to protect the general area around the stargate?

 

Beware of cannibalism for fuel/food (not a question) :blink:

You start with two RN nodes (see the devblog about that): one permanent at the ark ship and one in your inventory to place anywhere. They are VERY costly to make but you can have more than those two.

 

Yes they will most likely be camped and we have to assume that the org who built the gate has rdms on that gate (to prevent certain people from using it, maybe tax the gate,...). So yes, they will build defenses there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, a couple of follow up questions.

 

So we'll get a personal RN when we start the game or is it something we have to build; also is there a limit to how many we can have?  Same question for Corp RN.

 

It seems that stargates may become campsites for pirates and such.  Does a stargate belong to the player/corp who placed it there; can they build defenses to protect the general area around the stargate?

 

Beware of cannibalism for fuel/food (not  a question)   :blink:

Stargates, like anything in the game, are organisation goals. So, they will be taxed and kept protected -by people who actually have the manpower to pull it off. But hey, low-sec exists everywhere, and who knows, maybe FTL will be possible without stargates for certain ships, i.e. BSG Jump Drives (hopefully). Otherwise wrs wil lbe impossible or a complete, one-sided gatecamp if people have to "hack" gates. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You start with two RN nodes (see the devblog about that): one permanent at the ark ship and one in your inventory to place anywhere. They are VERY costly to make but you can have more than those two.

 

Yes they will most likely be camped and we have to assume that the org who built the gate has rdms on that gate (to prevent certain people from using it, maybe tax the gate,...). So yes, they will build defenses there.

 

You would have to protect your stargates because you could definitely camp stargates and attack ships as they pass through. The big thing will probably be that stargates are expensive and very hard to build so only big orgs will own them for the most part. With big orgs owning the stargates, they will be defended and secured fairly well if the org has the man power. You can also send fighters through first to secure the other side, then send your transport ships or cargo ships through after.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a crazy idea, a ship with a stargate inside....

 

I'm not entirely sure what we would use it for at the moment but someone will figure out a use for it. Perhaps as some kind of mobile forward base to deploy assets.

 

Perhaps a nomad or colony fleet leapfrogging its way to rich fertile planets without any competition getting in the way. I dont know but someone will know what to do with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a crazy idea, a ship with a stargate inside....

 

I'm not entirely sure what we would use it for at the moment but someone will figure out a use for it. Perhaps as some kind of mobile forward base to deploy assets.

 

Perhaps a nomad or colony fleet leapfrogging its way to rich fertile planets without any competition getting in the way. I dont know but someone will know what to do with it.

The idea is not any different than a Titan's Jump Portal Generator from EVE Online. A ship with a stargate on it - albeit there are some gimmicks involved that may or may not apply in DU.

 

The real question is if Stargates can be moved at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The real question is if Stargates can be moved at all.

That is indeed the question.

Beyond technical reasons I see no real gameplay reason why not. If its a static core just build it ontop of a dynamic core. *shrug*

 

Would be cool though. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it's even possible I would build two connected ones to invade other planets fast from a safe point in space - and many other things I have in mind but won't share with you :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is indeed the question.

Beyond technical reasons I see no real gameplay reason why not. If its a static core just build it ontop of a dynamic core. *shrug*

 

Would be cool though. :P

That sounds like dividing-by-zero-esque to me. I'd perfer Dynamic Cores having a "switch" that can turn them from Dynamic to Static, thus "anchoring" them (or rendering them impossible to be moved).

 

And although it sounds smart, it's actually a terrible idea what I just suggested. Case in point, I put a starfighter on your carrier and then switch it to static. Another divide-by-zero-esque situation emrges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That sounds like dividing-by-zero-esque to me. I'd perfer Dynamic Cores having a "switch" that can turn them from Dynamic to Static, thus "anchoring" them (or rendering them impossible to be moved).

 

And although it sounds smart, it's actually a terrible idea what I just suggested. Case in point, I put a starfighter on your carrier and then switch it to static. Another divide-by-zero-esque situation emrges.

 

That's a good point ... offensive anchoring ...

 

I'm not sure how they'd solve that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a good point ... offensive anchoring ...

 

I'm not sure how they'd solve that.

I'm a bit confused, when you land on another ship arent you anchored already?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a bit confused, when you land on another ship arent you anchored already?

No. You just have certain coordinates in regards to the construct's Core Unit.

 

Anchorign refers to EVE's "anchoring" where something remains immobile and cannot be moved (like a player owned starbase or a Citadel).

 

Static Core Units are - as the name implies - Static.

 

Which is the inherit problem with what I mentioend aBove. I guess it remains to be seen.

 

One possible solution is to have stargates only be possible to attach to a Static Core Construct. akthiugh, let's be honest, nothing prevents a Titan class ship from building a Stargate by having a Factory Unit strapped on it and enough containers to sotre all the necessary materials and parts to build a Stargate, bridging the fleet behind them to a new system. And let's be honest, such a fit means you hav e bridged an insane amount of people inside a star system and you now control the flow of the battle by attacking the enemy's Stargate, and shutting it down.

 

But then again Titans are 18km long ships, so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×