Terminals/Computers

[Kytheum]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but so far from what I've seen and read you can program vessels but only the vessel and its functions. But what if there was a terminal you could place anywhere and program? Similar to Computercraft (Minecraft mod), Which allows you to interact with a Small virtual computer with a basic LUA os. This would be difficult for the Devs and if introduced it would most likely be after release.

 

There are many uses, one of the biggest uses I have and I will use for an Example is, the Empire is planning on a network to keep information on every player who joins the Empire. And it will be private until you register with the Military which will extend your file and add information about you such as what Squad you're in and where you are located. It will also carry a small history and criminal record. This system could be accessed from anywhere in the Empire by members above a certain rank. From there they can write and modify reports on players files. A small LUA system that runs like this can also help run other organisations and businesses as a way to log all shipments and expenses.

 

I see it being a real help to the Economy of the Game.  And there could possibly be a way to send signals wirelessly. You could have a Computer send a transmission on a Frequency, and if another Computer receiving on frequency is loaded it can read the signal and decrypt it if needed.  

This could also grow the diversity of Organisations as now you will have organisations that produce software for other Organisation use. 

 

What do you think? Is it Easily Exploitable? Is it asking for the Impossible?  Do I even know what I'm talking about? I'm interested.

[Anaximander]

Control Units = what hosts Lua scripts. You don't put scripts into a thruster, you put the scripts into a cockpit, AKA, a Control Unit. 

Guess now how mapping a spaceship's automated systems and maneuvers will be handled. If you thought "Lua scripted key-binds?" then you stand correct. That is as simple as making "computercraft-ish" OSs for Control Units in-game.

Guess what else can be coded in Lua. Interfaces. Yeah. And mini-games. Even a scoreboard can be implemented that way that is printed onto the screen.

Also, there's a place that keeps track of who joined the [insert organisation name here]. It's the community portal.

This is a screen - another version of a Control Unit.








Given time and persistence, a person can make amazing interfaces for screens and sell it to the highest bidder in-game, or even make a custom interface for people who want their ship to have a unique feel to it.


Cheers.

[Thokan]

As I understand the mechanic, all NQ has to do is create a "terminal" control unit and you got yourself computers for bases aswell - which sounds highly interesting.

[Kytheum]

Control Units = what hosts Lua scripts. You don't put scripts into a thruster, you put the scripts into a cockpit, AKA, a Control Unit. 

 

Guess now how mapping a spaceship's automated systems and maneuvers will be handled. If you thought "Lua scripted key-binds?" then you stand correct. That is as simple as making "computercraft-ish" OSs for Control Units in-game.

 

Guess what else can be coded in Lua. Interfaces. Yeah. And mini-games. Even a scoreboard can be implemented that way that is printed onto the screen.

 

Also, there's a place that keeps track of who joined the [insert organisation name here]. It's the community portal.

 

This is a screen - another version of a Control Unit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given time and persistence, a person can make amazing interfaces for screens and sell it to the highest bidder in-game, or even make a custom interface for people who want their ship to have a unique feel to it.

 

 

Cheers.

 

Thank you. 

[ATMLVE]

I'm searching for it now, can't find it at the moment, but in an interview of sorts JC of NovaQuark said that originally, scripts won't be something accessible through an interface in-game, but rather you'll have to edit it outside of game, then put the code in a specific folder within the games files. This is because creating an interface for the game takes effort and is unnecessary if it can be done without it, so it won't be focused on immediately.

 

So yes, that would be awesome. Especially if there were multiple types of terminals (something like that one Space Engineers mod, if you know what I'm talking about), even though they all have the same functionality. Would love to see this, but as far as official word, it won't come immediately.

 

EDIT: Here we go, this is from a DU Explorers interview on September 17th last year:

 

 

 it might be that you have to open a file on the side of the game that is a certain path on your computer so this will be very hard core, mod-like kind of way of handling the script.  This is almost certain because we already have it, but having the proper implementation of that in-game will take a bit of time.

[Hrafna]

I'm searching for it now, can't find it at the moment, but in an interview of sorts JC of NovaQuark said that originally, scripts won't be something accessible through an interface in-game, but rather you'll have to edit it outside of game, then put the code in a specific folder within the games files. This is because creating an interface for the game takes effort and is unnecessary if it can be done without it, so it won't be focused on immediately.

 

If that's what it means to play Dual Universe, then I'm already playing Dual Universe.

[Anaximander]

I'm searching for it now, can't find it at the moment, but in an interview of sorts JC of NovaQuark said that originally, scripts won't be something accessible through an interface in-game, but rather you'll have to edit it outside of game, then put the code in a specific folder within the games files. This is because creating an interface for the game takes effort and is unnecessary if it can be done without it, so it won't be focused on immediately.

 

So yes, that would be awesome. Especially if there were multiple types of terminals (something like that one Space Engineers mod, if you know what I'm talking about), even though they all have the same functionality. Would love to see this, but as far as official word, it won't come immediately.

 

EDIT: Here we go, this is from a DU Explorers interview on September 17th last year:

That is for the Alpha. That's how we'll be scripting in ALPHA, not the actual launched game afaik. And yeah, creating an interface for Lua scripting is putting the cart before the horse, when the devs haven't tested what should or shouldn't be enabled in the scripts for the game. Or, what consitutes OP if left unchecked in the scripts layout. All those things need to be nailed down before they make an interface for it.

[BliitzTheFox]

If you're going to make a database you'll want to put that on an external website. Not in game. You could likely use the API to get all the information you need. Trying to do that in game is going to make the transfer of information very difficult. What you'll need is something like CVA's KOS checker in eve.

[DaSchiz]

If you can control access to a terminal as in toons only rank so and so can access a particular terminal then I know you could have a terminal for each and only those with that tag can use it. 

 

So not one terminal that changes by who uses it (which would be cool) but one terminal per tagged access level each with its own permissions. I remember JC said before that terminals can be customized. 

[Violet]

What OP was asking about has basically been confirmed by JC

 

The one caveat that has been said is that the scripts execute in the client rather than the server. Now this might necessarily not be a problem but it means that each user that comes and interacts with a terminal will be seeing their own local instance of whatever script is controlling the terminal.

 

What is not clear is how we will be able to share and persist state. I hope they either allow some sort of "database/memory element" that you can retrieve/store data in that is the same for all users.

 

While allowing third party call to player own services on the internet would be cool, I think it would break the immersion and be too powerful a feature.

[ShadowLordAlpha]

What OP was asking about has basically been confirmed by JC

 

The one caveat that has been said is that the scripts execute in the client rather than the server. Now this might necessarily not be a problem but it means that each user that comes and interacts with a terminal will be seeing their own local instance of whatever script is controlling the terminal.

 

What is not clear is how we will be able to share and persist state. I hope they either allow some sort of "database/memory element" that you can retrieve/store data in that is the same for all users.

 

While allowing third party call to player own services on the internet would be cool, I think it would break the immersion and be too powerful a feature.

 

It can very easily store the program without running it so that each client will have the same program running if they need to use it themselves and it only has to get the graphical display for another person to see so that could be sent from one player to another if needed though it is an interesting challenge. the could also take the easy road and just have it run on each client and not sync them though it could cause problems for ships that have many moving parts that they control.

[Violet]

Yeah but being able to sync them so users see the same thing is kinda crucial for a lot of the use cases people have talked about

[Hrafna]

Client-side... I really wish that I had read that sooner. What a waste of my time.

[Lethys]

Client-side... I really wish that I had read that sooner. What a waste of my time.

Well yeah ofc, otherwise you could kill any server as a backup emergency exit from a battle

[yamamushi]

Client-side... I really wish that I had read that sooner. What a waste of my time.

 

Wouldn't it have been more valuable to propose a solution to the client-side script limitation than to just abandon ship completely 11 posts into your account? 

 

 

Since we're on the topic, it's worth discussing -why- scripts have to be executed on the client side as opposed to being uploaded to the server as well as limitations that causes. 

 

To get a better sense of why simply just uploading a script to the server and expecting it to run wouldn't work in DU, one only needs to watch the server technology video:

 

 

 

With all of the dynamic clustering going on, it's not a simple matter of just running a script on a single cluster at a time, as player density shrinking the area sizes per-cluster would mean ultimately having to figure out a way to synchronize the execution of scripts across the dynamic clusters. 

 

Alternatively one could imagine a whole other server resource running externally from the cluster that does all of the script execution and makes calls to the cluster with the output. However, now we're talking about adding a whole other step to the client input process, adding precious latency. 

 

Regardless of the approaches, that still doesn't resolve issues like infinite loops bottlenecking server-side performance, which goes into a whole other topic of trying to also add in a static analyzer to the process. 

 

 

I think the process of just having the server stream scripts with version checksums to clients when needed for any particular task would be much easier and provides more performance value overall. Whenever a user with the proper permissions accesses a terminal or device or whatever (something that sends an event to a DPU), their client would request the script from the server to execute locally. 

 

They've said they're looking into ways of allowing for offline script execution, for bases with automated defenses/etc. I imagine that would be handled by some sort of upkeep cost, in in-game currency, to provide some balance. I also imagine it would work similarly to the external server resource I noted above. 

[Hrafna]

Well yeah ofc, otherwise you could kill any server as a backup emergency exit from a battle

 

It's not as simple as creating an infinite loop or using delays if limitations have been set as to the scripts complexity and runtime, and you can't use vectors or print if you have not been granted access to it (hence why it is referred to as a script in the first place). There are simpler, more efficient ways to break the server, and if a server don't have ways to solve this much it deserves all the flack it is going to get.

 

 

Wouldn't it have been more valuable to propose a solution to the client-side script limitation than to just abandon ship completely 11 posts into your account?

 

Fair point. I will at the very least leave with this, then, in some glimmer of hope that I might see some changes to it in the future.

 

An MMORPG server is composed of three parts that run independently of one another

 

1. Login

2. World

3. NPCs

 

Dual Universe is planned to be independent of the largest, and most time consuming, the third application: NPCs. I say NPCs can be replaced with LUA scripts, which even in the long term would be smaller than an NPC server. In this manner, should there be a problem with any of the LUA scripts, such as a delay, it will only affect other LUA scripts, just as it would an NPC server.

 

A script can then only be called by a construct that is stationary, and belongs to a territory, which limits how many LUA scripts can run per organization or capita. You can have 1 LUA script per territory, per organization, or per capita, such as 1 per 10, or 1 per 20, or 1 per 100. Pick any method or number you want. This assumes that a territory will be composed of at least one cluster, by the way.

 

LUA aside, territories can also, instead of simply being a dreadful misrepresentation of what a sandbox implies, have a maximum number of members per organization, so that an organization with 1-100 members will only need 1 territory, but an organization with 101-200 members will need 2 territories, and an organization with 201-300 members will need 3 territories, and so on. Again, pick any number you want. But, the point will be that as soon as a territory is over-populated, there's a penalty, such as a tax cut, or that they will be prohibited from creating or editing in their territory until they've got their over-population under control. This way, territory is more meaningful, as it forces large organizations to expand their territory, through purchasing or annexing the territories of other organizations. If territories are going to be about something else entirely, such as limiting PVP in some manner, then the game is no longer sandbox, and NQ should not be allowed to advertise it as such.

 

LUA and territories aside, the game needs more purpose than simply "building and purchasing pretty cars". As of now, you won't build to survive, because survival elements are being avoided like the plague. You won't build to improve your resource income rate, because you have a magical glove instead that does all the hard work for you. You won't build to improve your life style, because the game won't have a way of pushing, pulling, sliding, or rotating blocks, and won't allow scripting. You will not build for any reason other than to make your ship have a prettier shape and set of colors than your competitors, which is a tragic model that only someone extremely superficial would find interesting. Creativity comes from solving problems, but building for the sake of building, a purposeless model, is apparently the only model that this game will have. I feel that I've silently made one compromise after another, and that LUA was the final straw, as the game then had closer to nothing that I was interested in. They've ripped out any potential, and replaced it with an empty shell of a game; an MMORPG with voxel building, which is not a new concept by any margin, but a concept that's been improved upon since SOE attempted it and failed, and is a concept that I can play around with in the 10000 other indie games out there that aren't necessarily MMORPG, but are playable now, and has models that have proven to work. So, I guess what I'm saying is that there have been other things as well; it wasn't just LUA scripting that brought me to this conclusions. I just haven't mentioned it all, until now. You might like the direction that the game is going, but I don't, not anymore. And that is why I'm leaving. It's not to say I won't come back if I hear that they've changed the game fundamentally later down the line, to be more like the way I want it, but for now, it's not what I want, and who am I suggest changes? Who am I to suggest that this game should be less the way you want it? If you like the direction the game is going now, then that's good. It's good for you. And I don't mean that sarcastically. We can't have everything we want. I do hope that we'll see each other again in the future, though; that, this game will turn out to be everything I wanted, and you wanted, or at least a little bit the way everyone wants, but for now I will take my leave as there is nothing here for me. So, I bid you farewell.

[Lethys]

It's not as simple as creating an infinite loop or using delays if limitations have been set as to the scripts complexity and runtime, and you can't use vectors or print if you have not been granted access to it (hence why it is referred to as a script in the first place). There are simpler, more efficient ways to break the server, and if a server don't have ways to solve this much it deserves all the flack it is going to get.

 

 

 

Fair point. I will at the very least leave with this, then, in some glimmer of hope that I might see some changes to it in the future.

 

An MMORPG server is composed of three parts that run independently of one another

 

1. Login

2. World

3. NPCs

 

Dual Universe is planned to be independent of the largest, and most time consuming, the third application: NPCs. I say NPCs can be replaced with LUA scripts, which even in the long term would be smaller than an NPC server. In this manner, should there be a problem with any of the LUA scripts, such as a delay, it will only affect other LUA scripts, just as it would an NPC server.

 

A script can then only be called by a construct that is stationary, and belongs to a territory, which limits how many LUA scripts can run per organization or capita. You can have 1 LUA script per territory, per organization, or per capita, such as 1 per 10, or 1 per 20, or 1 per 100. Pick any method or number you want. This assumes that a territory will be composed of at least one cluster, by the way.

 

LUA aside, territories can also, instead of simply being a dreadful misrepresentation of what a sandbox implies, have a maximum number of members per organization, so that an organization with 1-100 members will only need 1 territory, but an organization with 101-200 members will need 2 territories, and an organization with 201-300 members will need 3 territories, and so on. Again, pick any number you want. But, the point will be that as soon as a territory is over-populated, there's a penalty, such as a tax cut, or that they will be prohibited from creating or editing in their territory until they've got their over-population under control. This way, territory is more meaningful, as it forces large organizations to expand their territory, through purchasing or annexing the territories of other organizations. If territories are going to be about something else entirely, such as limiting PVP in some manner, then the game is no longer sandbox, and NQ should not be allowed to advertise it as such.

 

LUA and territories aside, the game needs more purpose than simply "building and purchasing pretty cars". As of now, you won't build to survive, because survival elements are being avoided like the plague. You won't build to improve your resource income rate, because you have a magical glove instead that does all the hard work for you. You won't build to improve your life style, because the game won't have a way of pushing, pulling, sliding, or rotating blocks, and won't allow scripting. You will not build for any reason other than to make your ship have a prettier shape and set of colors than your competitors, which is a tragic model that only someone extremely superficial would find interesting. Creativity comes from solving problems, but building for the sake of building, a purposeless model, is apparently the only model that this game will have. I feel that I've silently made one compromise after another, and that LUA was the final straw, as the game then had closer to nothing that I was interested in. They've ripped out any potential, and replaced it with an empty shell of a game; an MMORPG with voxel building, which is not a new concept by any margin, but a concept that's been improved upon since SOE attempted it and failed, and is a concept that I can play around with in the 10000 other indie games out there that aren't necessarily MMORPG, but are playable now, and has models that have proven to work. So, I guess what I'm saying is that there have been other things as well; it wasn't just LUA scripting that brought me to this conclusions. I just haven't mentioned it all, until now. You might like the direction that the game is going, but I don't, not anymore. And that is why I'm leaving. It's not to say I won't come back if I hear that they've changed the game fundamentally later down the line, to be more like the way I want it, but for now, it's not what I want, and who am I suggest changes? Who am I to suggest that this game should be less the way you want it? If you like the direction the game is going now, then that's good. It's good for you. And I don't mean that sarcastically. We can't have everything we want. I do hope that we'll see each other again in the future, though; that, this game will turn out to be everything I wanted, and you wanted, or at least a little bit the way everyone wants, but for now I will take my leave as there is nothing here for me. So, I bid you farewell.

 

Yeah, so ships don't have LUA at all..... They are not subject to scripts.....NOT. That's EXACTLY why there is an element which will configure your controls automatically so that the basic maneuvers are always the same for any ship. You can edit and improve them for your ship and, depending which parameters you're able to edit, you can do lots of stuff with LUA and your ship. Moveable pistons/rotors/whatever are on their roadmap (iirc) to do even MORE stuff.

 

They said that through RDMS you may be able to disable PvP in that area (there are other means too ofc) and that is perfectly fine with a sandbox IF there is a viable tactic for others to disable that feature of that tile. If you could disable PvP as a player in a region and there are no means to deactivate that again, then it would be against a sandbox - and NQ will clearly not go with that.

 

Exactly - you won't build to survive. For now, you build to "REBUILD CIVILIZATION". I get your points there with creativity and building and I agree. You need a challange / enemy / whatsoever to improve your constructs in order for you to know that your building effort is meaningful.

To me, you will have this at release with PvP:

- depending on how sensors work, you have to be creative to hide your base/ship/station from enemies

- base layout for combat

- market placement (yeah, that's PVP too), running said market and enlarge it (you need actual space for all the goods)

- CvC: design ships for tricking the enemy (which won't be easy)

- explore new worlds and prepare for that trip

 

I'd have their server tech work and the fundamental gameplay mechanics to be smooth and good rather then tons and tons of possibilities. Those will come with time when more features are added to the game. But that's just me.

 

GL mate and hf

[Lord_Void]

 

...

 

LUA and territories aside, the game needs more purpose than simply "building and purchasing pretty cars". As of now, you won't build to survive, because survival elements are being avoided like the plague. You won't build to improve your resource income rate, because you have a magical glove instead that does all the hard work for you. You won't build to improve your life style, because the game won't have a way of pushing, pulling, sliding, or rotating blocks, and won't allow scripting. You will not build for any reason other than to make your ship have a prettier shape and set of colors than your competitors, which is a tragic model that only someone extremely superficial would find interesting. Creativity comes from solving problems, but building for the sake of building, a purposeless model, is apparently the only model that this game will have. I feel that I've silently made one compromise after another, and that LUA was the final straw, as the game then had closer to nothing that I was interested in. They've ripped out any potential, and replaced it with an empty shell of a game; an MMORPG with voxel building, which is not a new concept by any margin, but a concept that's been improved upon since SOE attempted it and failed, and is a concept that I can play around with in the 10000 other indie games out there that aren't necessarily MMORPG, but are playable now, and has models that have proven to work. So, I guess what I'm saying is that there have been other things as well; it wasn't just LUA scripting that brought me to this conclusions. I just haven't mentioned it all, until now. You might like the direction that the game is going, but I don't, not anymore. And that is why I'm leaving. It's not to say I won't come back if I hear that they've changed the game fundamentally later down the line, to be more like the way I want it, but for now, it's not what I want, and who am I suggest changes? Who am I to suggest that this game should be less the way you want it? If you like the direction the game is going now, then that's good. It's good for you. And I don't mean that sarcastically. We can't have everything we want. I do hope that we'll see each other again in the future, though; that, this game will turn out to be everything I wanted, and you wanted, or at least a little bit the way everyone wants, but for now I will take my leave as there is nothing here for me. So, I bid you farewell.

 

The game does have survival elements AKA players have to survive each other. You're right, many features are not being fast-tracked right now because of the small size of the studio. Many of these will come later, as the game will be perpetually expanded upon. The game's initial form is focused on the big picture: the battle between organizations. It encompasses logistics, politics, and espionage. As survival elements (as you have described them) are not essential to that gameplay they are features of secondary priority. 

 

I'm sorry that you do not like the way the game is heading, but the developers have been very open and honest from the beginning about what the game will include and what it won't. There are plenty of other games that are similar, sure, but none like this. It seems a little early to say the game is down the tubes, and there will be wide range of ways to compete. 

 

Good luck and we hope to see you again o7

[Anaximander]

It's not as simple as creating an infinite loop or using delays if limitations have been set as to the scripts complexity and runtime, and you can't use vectors or print if you have not been granted access to it (hence why it is referred to as a script in the first place). There are simpler, more efficient ways to break the server, and if a server don't have ways to solve this much it deserves all the flack it is going to get.

 

 

 

Fair point. I will at the very least leave with this, then, in some glimmer of hope that I might see some changes to it in the future.

 

An MMORPG server is composed of three parts that run independently of one another

 

1. Login

2. World

3. NPCs

 

Dual Universe is planned to be independent of the largest, and most time consuming, the third application: NPCs. I say NPCs can be replaced with LUA scripts, which even in the long term would be smaller than an NPC server. In this manner, should there be a problem with any of the LUA scripts, such as a delay, it will only affect other LUA scripts, just as it would an NPC server.

 

A script can then only be called by a construct that is stationary, and belongs to a territory, which limits how many LUA scripts can run per organization or capita. You can have 1 LUA script per territory, per organization, or per capita, such as 1 per 10, or 1 per 20, or 1 per 100. Pick any method or number you want. This assumes that a territory will be composed of at least one cluster, by the way.

 

LUA aside, territories can also, instead of simply being a dreadful misrepresentation of what a sandbox implies, have a maximum number of members per organization, so that an organization with 1-100 members will only need 1 territory, but an organization with 101-200 members will need 2 territories, and an organization with 201-300 members will need 3 territories, and so on. Again, pick any number you want. But, the point will be that as soon as a territory is over-populated, there's a penalty, such as a tax cut, or that they will be prohibited from creating or editing in their territory until they've got their over-population under control. This way, territory is more meaningful, as it forces large organizations to expand their territory, through purchasing or annexing the territories of other organizations. If territories are going to be about something else entirely, such as limiting PVP in some manner, then the game is no longer sandbox, and NQ should not be allowed to advertise it as such.

 

LUA and territories aside, the game needs more purpose than simply "building and purchasing pretty cars". As of now, you won't build to survive, because survival elements are being avoided like the plague. You won't build to improve your resource income rate, because you have a magical glove instead that does all the hard work for you. You won't build to improve your life style, because the game won't have a way of pushing, pulling, sliding, or rotating blocks, and won't allow scripting. You will not build for any reason other than to make your ship have a prettier shape and set of colors than your competitors, which is a tragic model that only someone extremely superficial would find interesting. Creativity comes from solving problems, but building for the sake of building, a purposeless model, is apparently the only model that this game will have. I feel that I've silently made one compromise after another, and that LUA was the final straw, as the game then had closer to nothing that I was interested in. They've ripped out any potential, and replaced it with an empty shell of a game; an MMORPG with voxel building, which is not a new concept by any margin, but a concept that's been improved upon since SOE attempted it and failed, and is a concept that I can play around with in the 10000 other indie games out there that aren't necessarily MMORPG, but are playable now, and has models that have proven to work. So, I guess what I'm saying is that there have been other things as well; it wasn't just LUA scripting that brought me to this conclusions. I just haven't mentioned it all, until now. You might like the direction that the game is going, but I don't, not anymore. And that is why I'm leaving. It's not to say I won't come back if I hear that they've changed the game fundamentally later down the line, to be more like the way I want it, but for now, it's not what I want, and who am I suggest changes? Who am I to suggest that this game should be less the way you want it? If you like the direction the game is going now, then that's good. It's good for you. And I don't mean that sarcastically. We can't have everything we want. I do hope that we'll see each other again in the future, though; that, this game will turn out to be everything I wanted, and you wanted, or at least a little bit the way everyone wants, but for now I will take my leave as there is nothing here for me. So, I bid you farewell.

Man, you do understand Lua scripts in the context of the game's modding are just macro-commands, right? :/

 

Instead of pressing all the different buttons to "roll a hard six" like Starbucks, you just have it macro-commanded in Lua, to always perform exactly as you want to, without the starfighter being locked in one telegraphed maneuver.

 

And this is just a basic example. You could automate an autopilot that :

 

1. Check Distance to locked target.

 

2. Keep range at X Km.

 

3. Set main propulsion at Y Km / s

 

in order to orbit a target. Automation and "fire and forget" are two different things. You seem to confuse setting up an auto-pilot with making self-driving vehicles. Which is not the case. 

 

This is why the macros can work on a cosntruct that moves. You simply run elaborate macro-commands client-side.