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Kuritho

Freedom? How about No: -Kuritho

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A lot of corporations promise this "freedom" (Which is not true... at all), so lets take a moment if there was "freedom".

We have a few ways of interpreting this:

1.Literally no Rules

2.Very *shitty* guidelines

3. Freedom of Expression

 

1st: Literally no Rules:

This is a semi-decent idea IF running a illegal trade operation or just care about Point A ---> Point B.

 

2nd: Very Shitty Guidelines

By far the most common in corporations (even most 10 biggest organizations do it) which is judged by pure opinion. Since the very few guidelines create a lot more loopholes (more than Literally no Rules and Freedom of Expression) because there is simply no way to judge those actions.

 

3rd: Freedom of Expression

Most first-world countries have this. People are free to express their opinions but their ACTIONS are regulated a lot. Very little corporations have this for some reason :/

 

 

 

But this comes to the next problem: When is too bad, too bad?

What about unfair judges?

Cybrex's Alts inflating the vote count?

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They probably just say that because if they tell people that members of their faction won't always get to do what they want, then no one's going to be interested. I don't really know though. But it is a game after all, and there ARE more serious factions on here. In the real world, such a system would be akin to anarchy, but of course DU is a game meant for fun.

 

Is this post meant to create discussion or alert faction leaders of faults in their systems?

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In the end, a lot is relative. Someone may say they offer freedoms and think of certain things - and not be wrong. Someone could just use the term for marketing purposes but be relatively restrictive.

 

Another may refer to "fight the power" (fight for freedom), which is relative again.

 

In the end, you'd have to ask the individual organizations or individuals what they mean specifically.

 

A lot is also common sense - you, as someone looking at the organization and promotion, sometimes or often have to set things into perspective and context. There's always a few rules once you join an organization.

 

Perhaps the debate could become more specific if specific examples were given - if one wanted to prevent "org blaming" by pointing fingers, one could just use a more anonymous example. So far it seems to be slightly too abstract for me.

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They probably just say that because if they tell people that members of their faction won't always get to do what they want, then no one's going to be interested. I don't really know though. But it is a game after all, and there ARE more serious factions on here. In the real world, such a system would be akin to anarchy, but of course DU is a game meant for fun.

 

Is this post meant to create discussion or alert faction leaders of faults in their systems?

More of alert certain faction leaders.

Corporations sometimes write a constitution but never uses them. Some make a list of rules but never follow them.

 

It just seems like "Freedom" is a complete "marketing" technique.

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It just seems like "Freedom" is a complete "marketing" technique.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

 

I will say that I play sandbox games so that I can make my own choices and have the freedom to do what I want, not so that I can sit down and have a second job with even more bureaucracy than my real-life one. Too many organizations act like they are giant corporations with needless bureaucracy and that just turns the game into a series of arbitrary rules that suck both the fun and freedom away.

 

I would much rather just play with a small group of friends than be stuck in a role that I dislike because I have to get x-number of people to sign off on allowing me to do something else with my character. I'm paying the subscription on my account (well technically not because I have a lifetime sub, but same difference), nobody gets to tell me what I am doing at any given moment, I should have the freedom to make those choices on my own. 

 

Too many people are acting like "Freedom" is something you have to earn, and forgetting that all of us have already earned it by simply backing/subscribing to the game.

 

I am also pessimistic about organizations assigning leadership roles before the game is playable. Leadership to me is something that someone earns by proving themselves through their actions in-game, not something that they get simply because they were first in line. If you want me to look up to this person as the "Fleet Admiral" that's great and all, but what has that person actually done to show they are really competent at that job? In Eve a new Fleet Commander both needed the necessary skills to manage a fleet of a given size AND they needed the hands-on training from more experienced Fleet Commanders to actually know how to effectively manage one. 

 

DU is in a completely different ballpark, and it's unfair to assume that skills in one game are necessarily going to carry over. So what you knew how to manage a fleet in Eve? When combat is first-person based and the mechanics are completely different than almost any other game out there, what does "Experience" really mean? The closest thing I can think of would be Star Citizen, and even that is a poor example until 3.0 drops.

 

That being said, I don't think numbers will really dictate success in Dual Universe either. It's all pretty meaningless if you have poor leadership and your smaller enemy knows what they are doing and is more tight-knit in their tactics, has nobody ever heard of the Spartans? 

 

 

It's no big secret I quit TU several months ago over this exact problem. I wanted to recruit someone into my part of the organization, and they told me I had to get permission from someone else who was much newer than me to the group. I didn't know this person, I didn't particularly care for the way this person talked to or about other people, and in no way whatsoever did that person show that they were someone I should trust with that kind of decision-making process. 

 

It seemed more like they got that position out of an arbitrary "First come first serve" decision process. So I decided to quit because I'm not going to put up with arbitrary bureaucracy managed by people I have no trust in simply because they want some artificial semblance of power in a game that isn't even playable yet.

 

I am quite aware of the drama storm that a certain org-leader threw out privately because the published Dual Universe Lore guidelines didn't match up with the backstory they decided to write for their organization despite NQ telling everyone not to yet, and wanted the official lore changed to suit them because "Theirs was better". Don't tell me that wasn't about feeling like there was a loss of power happening. Yet this is a person people are entrusting their time to. (Oh I have screenshots, I'm just not going to throw them under the bus publicly here, they know who they are)

 

It's one of the primary reasons I don't believe that many of the "large" organizations will be around post-launch (or even very far into Alpha).

 

 

 

For all those reasons and more, I refuse to be part of pretty much any organization in almost any capacity until someone can prove to me they are worth trusting with my time (and money). Otherwise, I fear I'm going to feel like a slave to people I'll end up having no respect for.

 

I've put a lot of money into Dual Universe, not only into Kickstarter but in -many- other ways, I'm not going to throw all of that away on people who have Little Prince Syndrome. 

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This whole thing is also where I like to point out that adding "bureaucracy" for the sake of wanting structure is fine and dandy. But when the red tape starts to come up, you've gone too far imo. It isn't a game anymore for you or your group, it's a prison. Albeit, a prison where people join willfully.Clearly some people like those sorts of groups, and frankly, good for them. There is a place for them, I have no issues with it. Different flavors and all.

 

Using the buzzword "freedom" is a marketing ploy, and also adds flair. Don't think too much in to it, because guess what - it equals jack shit just like everything else does when you get down to it. Find a group that plays well, and stick with it. Buzzwords or not, you either end up with a good group or a bad group, which is all relative to you. 

 

That said, I hear some groups around here provide not full freedom, but just the right amount. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 

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Words that make me look smart.

Expressions about my deep understanding of the game.

Defensive statements about my views on liberty and freedom.

Mockery of almost completely unrelated knowledge pertaining to dual universe.

Exiting statement about Freedom and making Dual Universe great again!!!

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This whole thing is also where I like to point out that adding "bureaucracy" for the sake of wanting structure is fine and dandy. But when the red tape starts to come up, you've gone too far imo. It isn't a game anymore for you or your group, it's a prison. Albeit, a prison where people join willfully.Clearly some people like those sorts of groups, and frankly, good for them. There is a place for them, I have no issues with it. Different flavors and all.

 

Ever seen the thing where hundreds of people are playing one game of Civ 6? They've got it set up where you can campaign to be mayor of a town, run for mayor, if you're mayor you vote to decide what government policies to adopt? I saw it scrolling through facebook once, as a shared link, but I can't seem to find the link anywhere. It was crazy how complicated it was.

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@yama: exactly my thoughts, gj writing those (ahhhhhhhhhhhhh you're in my brain)

@neo: yeah. Get help maybe?

@CommanderLuiz: in such huge orgs you need organizational geniuses to cope with the amount of different opinions and people. If your game of DU is SOLELY AND ONLY the organizational part, doing spreadsheets, an not playing as builder/engineer/explorer/whatever because you won't have time do that - pls do it. But don't whine when you can't play the actual game then. A huge empire needs someone to be in charge and that person has no time for the real game.

If you don't have such structures then everybody will just do whatever he wants and you end up with some guys taking the lead of others and small bands will form within that org- that's my approach to the game. Be part of something bigger but do what you want

@cybrex: I don't need to reply to a genius post which I wrote myself as alt :)

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Words that make me look smart.

 

Expressions about my deep understanding of the game.

 

Defensive statements about my views on liberty and freedom.

 

Mockery of almost completely unrelated knowledge pertaining to dual universe.

 

Exiting statement about Freedom and making Dual Universe great again!!!

What?

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

.....

 

It's one of the primary reasons I don't believe that many of the "large" organizations will be around post-launch (or even very far into Alpha).

 

For all those reasons and more, I refuse to be part of pretty much any organization in almost any capacity until someone can prove to me they are worth trusting with my time (and money). Otherwise, I fear I'm going to feel like a slave to people I'll end up having no respect for.

 

Haha. Yeah, its pretty ridiculous just because someone can write a nice bit of lore and do some fancy graphics doesn't mean they are going to be a good leader.

 

If you want to be "free" then playing as a freelancer is going to be your deal, I suspect that most orgs will be relying on freelancers to fill a lot of the gaps when they need to gather a lot of resources for a project and getting an income from renting out "safe houses" to non org players.

 

Inevitably though, if you want to do anything more than just survive and not be so completely vulnerable to bandits you have to work with other players and working with others means giving up some freedoms. What is the point of an org that does not place some duties on its members? This is the essence of it. The more an org asks of its members, and the better it inspires people to work together the more sucessful it will become, people will want to give up their freedoms to be part of a successful organisation.

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If you want to be "free" then playing as a freelancer is going to be your deal, I suspect that most orgs will be relying on freelancers to fill a lot of the gaps when they need to gather a lot of resources for a project and getting an income from renting out "safe houses" to non org players.

 

Wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what my org is called, and what our purpose as an org is? Yep, The Freelancers exist to both be free to do what we want, and be hired by other orgs to do what they want, while getting paid. It's going to be great.

 

 

I should really make a post in the pub... but wouldn't you know it, I'm afraid to mess it up.

 

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Wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what my org is called, and what our purpose as an org is? Yep, The Freelancers exist to both be free to do what we want, and be hired by other orgs to do what they want, while getting paid. It's going to be great.

 

 

I should really make a post in the pub... but wouldn't you know it, I'm afraid to mess it up.

 

So, basically your org is to connect other freelancers without making any rules?

Sounds good to me.

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Kind of, yeah. Where similar minded freelancers can come together and work together if they choose, or just take part in the selling out of their skills to others portion. Practically no rules, aside from a very simple one.

 

 

No attacking anyone who is currently employing the services of another member.

 

 

I'm going to make a pub post soon, but I've still got to work on it.

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"

Freedom is subjective. That is a truth we must come to terms with. What works for one person or organisation may or may not work for another. The fact is, that I may prefer three rules to govern my play style and another person may need only one - yet another individual may prefer an entire page of those rules. It doesn't mean anyone of us three is wrong, neither does it mean that any of our three different opinions is the universally right one. 

 

There is reason governments and nations have 300-500 page Constitutions - because it's necessary. A government cannot work effectively using the simple and few rules that keep factions, mercenaries or NGO's together; neither can it use the End User License Agreement (EULA) of a company to run its affairs: it won't work. The other way round, none of the four latter groups above can use (effectively or otherwise) the Constitution of nations to run their affairs. Let's be sincere, most of us don't even glance through the Terms and Conditions of what we use, how then will we read 400 pages cover to cover of an in game organisation? Who will invest the time to write it in the first place?  

 

You use a horse to ride and an eagle for recreation, hunting or scouting. This isn't Lord of the Rings or some fantasy, where you jump on an eagle and expect it to fly to the Middle Kingdom (you will nearly kill the poor bird and it definitely won't thank you for breaking its back). It isn't "ponyville" either where horses go scouting, hunting and fighting with a mind of their own. Trying to ride an eagle doesn't make the eagle stupid, it makes the person stupid. Eagles excel at what they do: flying and hunting. Horses excel at what they do: beasts of burden, galloping, et cetera, et cetera. The eagle isn't weak in its own regard and the horse isn't stupid in its own regard. For every situation, there is something that works best and it doesn't necessarily have to work for all.

 

I see no reason to throw a tantrum over the freedoms allowed in organisations. Yes, "freedom" as it applies to Dual Universe is a marketing technique and whether you like it or not, it's working. Look at the descriptions of top organisations. Marketing isn't wrong and if the populace is misguided by such means, experience should have taught people to call a timeout when they were promised a castle and handed a brick.

 

BOO's rules vis-à-vis the TU are a lot fewer. Does that make BOO's laws inadequate or the TU's laws too many? In the crystal clear sense: no, it does not. BOO finds what works for it and the TU likewise. It is unfair judgement to regard either as wrong using the other as a measuring stick. The player-base of both organisations know what they want, and they found a group that has it. From merely reading above, it is not hard to realise that fingers are already being pointed. Who made you a judge over other men's affairs, yourself? They like many laws? Let them be. They like few laws? Leave them alone. Solely using personal opinion to determine whether an organisation's laws are too many or too few, without consulting the player base or the leadership is naive and outright silly. That's nothing but looking for trouble.

 

Most of us act maturely here, so why be a drama-queen when leaving an organisation? Should the freedoms of one group be inadequate for you, or excessive for your taste, there are 1,195 others you can join. All it takes it to click the "leave" button on one page and click the "join" button on another. That isn't hard, even children can do that without much thought.  

 

Granted, there are times when the laws are too many or too few. No problem there, grab an axe and chop some rules off, or grab a spade and heap some more rules. For those who have the interests of their members at heart, interaction is the safest bet. No human being that invests a lot wants to be told what to do again and again without a chance to speak his/her mind and no one likes being ignored. No, not even me. Subjecting humans to your own laws and your own rules paired with the unwillingness to hear or change will bring discontent, make no mistake about that. Interaction opens up other ideas and paths. I have learnt a lot more from interacting and heeding the advice of my fellow team members than I would have learnt by myself. Besides, if you do interact, and they say everything is fine, you can't be blamed if they start complaining that the laws are tyrannical and the point that the leadership never listens will be rendered null and void. 

 

We all have a pride and ego and certainly do believe that what we do is the best in many cases. Ego never keeps people together for long and God have mercy on you, if you are kicked out of the organisation you founded with your own hands and dare to force your way back in. Cut down some high opinion of yourself before it gets out of hand.

It's better to deal with a single rodent than struggle with a civilisation of rats staking claims in your own house.

Ego is in everyone's character, it doesn't mean it has to be in the forefront. Save yourself the trouble and deal with it: it's only in literature that having a large ego pays off. Good leadership shows its qualities and those qualities can be seen. Ignore people that only know how to criticise and have nothing else to offer: rather than fret over them, mind your own business. There are hints and lessons to picked in many arguments and morals in some insults, but constantly changing plans because of some disgruntled characters will get you moving round and round; not forward.

 

As yamamushi noted above, a lot of us have jobs in real life and we paid to enjoy the game. There's no fun in having to take up another job with something that's meant to be employed as leisure. Bigger organisation have more to take care of: more rules. Smaller organisation have less to focus on: less rules. 

 

Lastly, I will note that friends and acquaintances are less likely to voice discontent than enemies or unaffected parties. Be wary of your enemies, yes, but play closer attention to those in the close circle. If they say the laws are too many, believe me, they have a point. They aren't saying it because they want you to gulp down dozens of cups of coffee and stay awake for nights writing and rewriting hundreds of laws and rules. Except in rare cases, they actually have your best interest at heart.  

 

Let us all define what we deem as the correct measure of "freedom" that suits our play style. Did you find an organisation that has it? Go ahead and join. Perhaps you didn't find anything close to what you want? The "create your own organisation" button is right here, or you can find it on the Community Portal. Should you find a group that's close to what you want, but not quite the perfect match, offer your opinion. This isn't a romance story: being shy won't help you here. If they refuse to compromise, look for another or create your own. There's no need to throw a tantrum about it. 

 

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

"

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