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Black Market, Illegal goods, Drugs, etc...

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The worst for smugglers or dealers would be a cohesive tight-knit efficient security or police organization with proper "incorruptibles" and mechanisms to prevent corruption passively or actively.

 

Chances are there will be a few more 'cohesive' organizations out there among the many player made organizations, nations, etc. There's already quite a few "crusaders" in Star Citizen. While gameplay mechanics may be different, I think you can roughly compare Star Citizen and Dual Universe because in a way community interaction will be comparable.

 

But then again it wouldn't even matter much if you offer "universal", ironically. Say a player government really cracks down on smuggling and keeps their places relatively free, and them (smugglers, dealers, etc) out. That's good for them but it wouldn't even matter much to the dealers or whatever. What would you do if operating there was nearly impossible or not worth it? You'd move on and try elsewhere.

 

You could say the 'shady ones' still win. In theory. Of course if you move somewhere else there could be competition...

 

Looks like it won't be easy for anyone, either initially or after some time.

 

 

 

 

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Well it won't necessarily be easy, but it will still be common and unpreventable. Even with "incorruptable" police, if there are customers there will be sellers ad the two will find a way to trade. The only way to truly stop black markets is to remove the customer base, that is to say, convince people not to want to buy the "illegal" goods. There will always be illegal corporate practices to increase profits. Tax evasion, piracy, tariff avoidance, etc. 

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Well it won't necessarily be easy, but it will still be common and unpreventable. Even with "incorruptable" police, if there are customers there will be sellers ad the two will find a way to trade. The only way to truly stop black markets is to remove the customer base, that is to say, convince people not to want to buy the "illegal" goods. There will always be illegal corporate practices to increase profits. Tax evasion, piracy, tariff avoidance, etc. 

Loyalty points can always reward the lawful abiding meber of the alliance / nation.

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Loyalty points can always reward the lawful abiding meber of the alliance / nation.

 

Doesn't that require the ability to distinguish "law abiding" citizens from "criminals? And if they could do that then couldn't they just stamp out the smuggling? Plus, there will be smuggling opportunities that are more valuable than the loyalty points, so the system might not be a strong enough incentive to avoid illicit behavior.

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Doesn't that require the ability to distinguish "law abiding" citizens from "criminals? And if they could do that then couldn't they just stamp out the smuggling? Plus, there will be smuggling opportunities that are more valuable than the loyalty points, so the system might not be a strong enough incentive to avoid illicit behavior.

Sure. One way of rewarding loyalty points as "extra points" like banks do to reward not paying in cash, the owner of the trading hub (the faction itself) can simply check whoever bought on that month or week or day, and assing loyalty points on a charter. 

 

I.e. you spent X amount of spacebucks in the market you get 0.5% of that X amount as LPs.

you spent 2X amount of spacebucks? The amount is 0.10%

You speand 3X amount of money? The amount is 0.20%

 

This logarithmic scale increases up to 10% flat less than the taxation of the station (if it's 15% it will get to 5% return).  But here's the crazy plan, redeeming those LPs.

 

For the small time seller / buyer, that won't be a real incentive, but the larger industrialist / miner would be incentivised to buy / sell minerals from the market to increase the revenue he gets on that LP generation, which they can later redeem them on an item "terminal" set up by the faction itself to buy a refund of money, ala tax returns. Or, they can trade those LPs as LEGITIMATE IOUs that got real value fora richer faction, i.e. pay a person with LPs, to buy armor from the faction terminals.

 

I know, genious. A tax return scheme that makes people actively participating in Loyalty Points through legal activities and has a fair tax-return scheme? Crazy-talk,

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I'm not really seeing the validity of the contraband idea, If we the players are making the universe populated, who is the law?

Will there be an empire of some type emanating from the Arkship?

Who are we avoiding with contraband, a police force or military of some sort?

 

This requires some serious NPC population behind it, if not that then are we talking about a player empire trying to impose laws on the universe, and on what grounds does something constitute it being contraband? Without some sort of behind the scenes enforcement, a player based empire could just say iron is contraband, and confiscate all the iron being used by other players...

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I'm not really seeing the validity of the contraband idea, If we the players are making the universe populated, who is the law?

Will there be an empire of some type emanating from the Arkship?

Who are we avoiding with contraband, a police force or military of some sort?

 

This requires some serious NPC population behind it, if not that then are we talking about a player empire trying to impose laws on the universe, and on what grounds does something constitute it being contraband? Without some sort of behind the scenes enforcement, a player based empire could just say iron is contraband, and confiscate all the iron being used by other players...

The right of enforcement or setting the laws is in the hands of the players - on their own grounds, primarily. If a player nation arises and claims a planet or system, they can declare iron contraband in their areas and confiscate it. Of course iron is a weird example but you get the idea.

 

The players make it all. Beyond said nation, another could declare iron as normal resource. Heck, another could worship iron. Just don't think too big, there likely won't be the one player org to impose everything on everyone, but many individual groups. Just like the world today.

 

And if one faction manages to obtain universal control, kudos to them anyway.

 

To quote the Necromongers: You keep what you kill.

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I'm not really seeing the validity of the contraband idea, If we the players are making the universe populated, who is the law?

Will there be an empire of some type emanating from the Arkship?

Who are we avoiding with contraband, a police force or military of some sort?

 

This requires some serious NPC population behind it, if not that then are we talking about a player empire trying to impose laws on the universe, and on what grounds does something constitute it being contraband? Without some sort of behind the scenes enforcement, a player based empire could just say iron is contraband, and confiscate all the iron being used by other players...

You could go back and read the thread, some amazing ideas WHY drugs could be outlawed by the players have been layed down.

 

My suggestion, was to make the drugs cause you to enter drug-fiend mode, where you become an NPC and attack anyone indiscriminately, so there's that possibility of people shooting you on sight, as they may not understand yo uare under Drug-Fiend effects (and they shouldn't know really you are under one) so the boni it provides as a drug may have unforeseen backfire.

 

The idea is simple, the more you use the drugs within a cooldown period, the more the chance of becoming a drug-fiend. So, if you were to take drugs in-game back to back, without letting the cooldown wear off, you would end with a high chance of the next time you take drugs, to become a drug-fiend.

 

So, you see, this will require some factions to put up rules, like  "No drugs allowed - if you attack a fellow alliance member you will be treated as a troll and a thief, kicked off the alliance, put on Kill-On-Sight lists and all your assets will be seized."

 

It's like the game is about politics or something.

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The right of enforcement or setting the laws is in the hands of the players - on their own grounds, primarily. If a player nation arises and claims a planet or system, they can declare iron contraband in their areas and confiscate it. Of course iron is a weird example but you get the idea.

 

The players make it all. Beyond said nation, another could declare iron as normal resource. Heck, another could worship iron. Just don't think too big, there likely won't be the one player org to impose everything on everyone, but many individual groups. Just like the world today.

 

And if one faction manages to obtain universal control, kudos to them anyway.

 

To quote the Necromongers: You keep what you kill.

I used iron as I would assume it's going to be an essential abundant resource in order to make the point that groups of people could just use it to screw everyone in the surrounding area, call anything and everything contraband, it's all illegal and they will confiscate all of it, it's no different to a bigger empire just saying they want your stuff or they will crush you, and in that case it's not law, it's just people being knobs in game, which is to be expected anyway.

Universal control I doubt would be good in the long term for the game, in it's most extreme form it could bring a halt to the game entirely, it's not like IRL where death can be a finality, we don't resurrect and remain in control IRL. If a group with enough power just decides to take control of the space outside the Arkship safe zone that could be a huge issue.

 

You could go back and read the thread, some amazing ideas WHY drugs could be outlawed by the players have been layed down.

 

My suggestion, was to make the drugs cause you to enter drug-fiend mode, where you become an NPC and attack anyone indiscriminately, so there's that possibility of people shooting you on sight, as they may not understand yo uare under Drug-Fiend effects (and they shouldn't know really you are under one) so the boni it provides as a drug may have unforeseen backfire.

 

The idea is simple, the more you use the drugs within a cooldown period, the more the chance of becoming a drug-fiend. So, if you were to take drugs in-game back to back, without letting the cooldown wear off, you would end with a high chance of the next time you take drugs, to become a drug-fiend.

 

So, you see, this will require some factions to put up rules, like  "No drugs allowed - if you attack a fellow alliance member you will be treated as a troll and a thief, kicked off the alliance, put on Kill-On-Sight lists and all your assets will be seized."

 

It's like the game is about politics or something.

Well yeah I'm not saying that there cannot be a reason for a contraband to be outlawed, my comment arises from the fact that in any other game, what constitutes laws and what items are considered contraband are essentially based on a background game mechanic build into the game that the player needs to bypass as a part of the mechanic, and that is something as far as I've read, and what Warden implies in his quote above, is that what defines contraband is decided by the player base.

And in that case, two problems arise; 1) as I said above, anything can just be called contraband like basic resources, and Alpha Empire that can do anything in the game they want because essentially they are the law is never going to end well. 2) how would anyone even police it? it's not like the LUA scrips can build a police force to confiscate specific things, which means it will be players, doing it, which is no different to just anyone ripping off people under the name of this 'law empire' which in the end is not really doing anything lawful at all.

 

So while the ideas of contraband existing are fine in theory, I can't really see them actually working, being able to actually be inforced, and then not being abused to hell even if they were by miracle able to be established. In the end that just begs the question of 'what is a law' is it just a rule made by the guys with the most power? In that case, it's not law, it's tyranny, meaning you're not running a black market or illegal items, you're just moving stuff a bigger power want to own.

 

I get the idea of it, but without an underlying law mechanic, working based on the developer wishes I cannot see it ever working properly with just player input alone.

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Well yeah I'm not saying that there cannot be a reason for a contraband to be outlawed, my comment arises from the fact that in any other game, what constitutes laws and what items are considered contraband are essentially based on a background game mechanic build into the game that the player needs to bypass as a part of the mechanic, and that is something as far as I've read, and what Warden implies in his quote above, is that what defines contraband is decided by the player base.

And in that case, two problems arise; 1) as I said above, anything can just be called contraband like basic resources, and Alpha Empire that can do anything in the game they want because essentially they are the law is never going to end well. 2) how would anyone even police it? it's not like the LUA scrips can build a police force to confiscate specific things, which means it will be players, doing it, which is no different to just anyone ripping off people under the name of this 'law empire' which in the end is not really doing anything lawful at all.

 

So while the ideas of contraband existing are fine in theory, I can't really see them actually working, being able to actually be inforced, and then not being abused to hell even if they were by miracle able to be established. In the end that just begs the question of 'what is a law' is it just a rule made by the guys with the most power? In that case, it's not law, it's tyranny, meaning you're not running a black market or illegal items, you're just moving stuff a bigger power want to own.

 

I get the idea of it, but without an underlying law mechanic, working based on the developer wishes I cannot see it ever working properly with just player input alone.

Are you certain you do understand the game has no NPC empires?

 

How to police it? By paying people to do so. Seizure of illegal contraband and tackling a smuggler is not differnt than being a pirate ad tackling a cargo freighter full of goodies.

 

Also, RDMS makes sure some goods can't be sold on the market units - for any of the aforementioned mechanics of drug-fiend and even possibly, drunken rage.

 

Also, you need to read on what the RDMS is. The Po-Po won't pull over a guy who has a tag of "Outstanding Reputation" plastered on them by the Po-Po's boss alliance. They will go actively after those who are shadey on their stuff when they come out of the star gates. What prevents people from warping off a gate when they exit the star gates? The same mechanics tat will make sure peirates can tackle ships in the first place. It's funny how in a sandbox multiple features have multiple uses.

 

And yes, in EVE, we got NBSI alliances (Not Blue or "friendly" ? Shoot It), being tagged as "blue" (outstanding reputation) is essential to not be blown up. Some alliances have an NRDS (Not Red or "hostile"? Don't Shoot). Those people's reputations is based on upkeeping their policy (NBSI / NRDS ). If you go and trade as a neutral-grey in an Alliance that is NBSI, you WILL be subject to being scammed or robbed without people feeling remorse about it.

 

It's not "Herp-derp" to build a sandbox game alliance. This is not ARK : Survival of the Psychos. It's not a 100 man server tops. It takes actual brains to run an alliance - and a lot of Excel spreadsheets.

 

Having a drug, that can pretty much make an NBSI alliance not feet safe within its safety net behind its borders, because people may suddenly go gun crazy around them, is quite a good reason to ban a drug that can cause chaos via the aforementioned drug-fiend, and evne alcohol with a drunker-rage mechanism being introduced.

 

And a pretty good reason for Blue-tagged traders to be used as smugglers. As I said, there's no Han Solo smuggler in the real world. Smugglers are people who hide illegal products inside a legal cargo.

 

And where's there's need, there's demand and there's money to be made.

 

I don't doubt that some NRDS alliances, who are all about freedom, democracy and all that kindergarden stuff, will have a "do ALL the drugs policy friends, we'll still <3 U" and will be as poor as they can get, because no sane trader would dare step a foot on one of their planets and all the mullas will be sent to people who produce the drugs - like how Skill Point Injectors in EV are a sort of drug and all the money go to people who produce them.

 

But on the plus side, most of their players will be more trained in skillpoints, because of all the drugies, and one day, they will just move into the more secure, NBSI alliances, who will be far more organised and wealthy.

 

It's just how humans work.

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So while the ideas of contraband existing are fine in theory, I can't really see them actually working, being able to actually be inforced, and then not being abused to hell even if they were by miracle able to be established. In the end that just begs the question of 'what is a law' is it just a rule made by the guys with the most power? In that case, it's not law, it's tyranny, meaning you're not running a black market or illegal items, you're just moving stuff a bigger power want to own.

 

Well yeah, that's how governments work. They have more power than you....

 

If an org seizes control of one or more tiles and has the manpower to police all that then they can declare iron as contraband, why not? The ones with the bigger guns will make the laws in those tiles and if you want to live there because they protect you, you have to abide their laws. If you don't agree, leave. It's not like one org will have control over one whole planet, because for that you'd need way way way more than thousands of players. And even IF they can police all that, guess what happens: black markets for iron :P

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I don't believe that an org will have the ability or motivation to universally police a law outlawing a specific material, within the area they control.

 

All a "law" does is provide a reason for someone within the organization to attack someone else.

 

You might as well outlaw all "green" spaceships.

 

Most players will justify any attack they make on any other player based upon their own convictions.  If they're willing to risk the potential of character death, I doubt there's much an organization can do to influence their behavior.

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There might also be political reasons to ban certain goods/services.  Like for example banning possession/sale of all blueprints made by a particular company.  Why?  Maybe they're somehow affiliated with a rival faction, or maybe their products are just poor and you want your markets to be associated with quality.  Or maybe just because you didn''t like the way one of them looked at you one day.  If there's a demand for those products despite the ban, cue smuggling/black market opportunities.

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If people think wider, they'll find plenty of reasonable uses for laws (and regulations) beyond pure security, contraband etc. laws and whatnot.

In EVE, you got to respect the rulesets of an alliance, in regards to respecting mining rights over a region, respect another's person home and back yard, and in some, there's the "if you start a fight, it's you and them, not your corp and theirs".

 

The added bonus of chaos in drugs, is what may make them prohibited items,as their chaos would end being a headache and athorn on the side of the people on top. Nobody wants to not feel safe on their own Territory Claim Units or trading stations, far from the border regions of a faction.

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There might also be political reasons to ban certain goods/services.  Like for example banning possession/sale of all blueprints made by a particular company.  Why?  Maybe they're somehow affiliated with a rival faction, or maybe their products are just poor and you want your markets to be associated with quality.  Or maybe just because you didn''t like the way one of them looked at you one day.  If there's a demand for those products despite the ban, cue smuggling/black market opportunities.

 

I agree. There are reasons for groups to try and ban things, but that just creates the potential for black markets if the demand remains. 

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Hi everyone,

 

A bit of cleaning has been done in this topic.

Please avoid to spread a flamming war in public and stick to the topic from now on.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

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There might also be political reasons to ban certain goods/services.  Like for example banning possession/sale of all blueprints made by a particular company.  Why?  Maybe they're somehow affiliated with a rival faction, or maybe their products are just poor and you want your markets to be associated with quality.  Or maybe just because you didn''t like the way one of them looked at you one day.  If there's a demand for those products despite the ban, cue smuggling/black market opportunities.

 

 

This is actually a very valid argument.

 

Consider the ship builder of another org.  Your organization could ban ALL ships from that builder or the organization as a whole.  But, if one of the members attempted to purchase the ship (or at least bring it into your area of control), they would be in violation of the law.  As such, as soon as he crossed the border, he should be blasted to atoms by his own org members.  How would your organization deal with a member that is in posession of contraband?

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I sometimes wonder why some only seem to consider "bomb it until it perishes" or "do nothing" approaches, because using "contraband" doesn't seem to warrant outright use of lethal force in my book if it's an organization member.

 

I can imagine various other measures like in reality. Be creative or think a bit and you will find alternatives.

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I sometimes wonder why some only seem to consider "bomb it until it perishes" or "do nothing" approaches, because using "contraband" doesn't seem to warrant outright use of lethal force in my book if it's an organization member.

 

I can imagine various other measures like in reality. Be creative or think a bit and you will find alternatives.

Indeed. The reason people cannot see alliances self-policing their borders is because most people deal in absolutes. Sure, absolutes may work in some cases, but things do get more and more complicated.

 

People assume they will be calling themselves "Top-kek smuggler". That's not how this works though. If a guy has a very good reputation and is the best person you know, but is also a smuggler that profits from hurting the organisation, but he's doing so in an indirect way (not PKing), then things get quite complex.

 

That person didn't steal from the organisation / alliance, but they also didn't play by the rules the rest of the alliance played - case in point, smuggling in unregulated stuff and bypass the conventional and established marketplace that fuels the alliance itself 

 

That alone, as I have stated many times, is economic warfare. That best lad / lass smuggler, is indeed causing harm to the alliance they are part of, so they should be treated like a person who attacked the alliance, but on the other hand, they didn't attack anyone openyl. so, is the penalty an established fee for their smuggling ways? Do they lose the license to trade with the station? Are they kicked out?

 

Many shades of grey. It's why I elected to be a pirate. Life's way more simple than being a smuggler. Plus, explosions.

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Yes indeed, there are many possibilities for punishment depending who committed the crime, the severity, even how many times the crime had been committed.

 

A long term alliance member might get a warning, followed by a fine for a second offence, followed by being kicked from the alliance. A new member might get kicked in the first offence. A friendly might just get banished and downgraded. On the other hand a large scale smuggling operation may lead to war.

 

At the same time it is a game. Death isn't the end of the world, so the punishment could easily be death plus one of the above.

 

Perhaps the best way to police your lands is to assign all trusted individuals with a bounty hunter tag. Then if there's a way to apply automatic bounties to anyone who breaks the law, you're set.

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Also, the penalty for smuggling could depend on the position they hold within the organization, just like real life.

 

For example, if I was a relatively low-ranking member of long standing in the org, I would receive the penalty for Smuggling. But if I was higher up the ladder in the org, I could be charged with Misconduct in Public Office, or something similar.

 

Or if I was, say, a police officer or customs agent, there would be more severe penalties for me, because I was placed in a position of authority and trust. I would probably be at the very least banned from the org.

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Also, the penalty for smuggling could depend on the position they hold within the organization, just like real life.

 

For example, if I was a relatively low-ranking member of long standing in the org, I would receive the penalty for Smuggling. But if I was higher up the ladder in the org, I could be charged with Misconduct in Public Office, or something similar.

 

Or if I was, say, a police officer or customs agent, there would be more severe penalties for me, because I was placed in a position of authority and trust. I would probably be at the very least banned from the org.

Yeah... if you don't punish those in power whne they screw the organisation over people will just revolt. People accept dictatorships or oligarchies only when there's meritocracy in them. If you are to not kick and seize all of the assets of the high-ranking smuggler, you only send a message to those below that got F'd over by the smuggling (mining ops, refineries etcetera) who had to sell cheaper to compete with the lack of the demand on the legal market, you will only end up with a rebellion at best or in a worst case, them selling you off to another faction who is dealing with smuggler by seizing their assets and kicking them so hard off the alliance / org they quit the game or roll a new toon.

 

You may say "but hey Twerk, don't you like want to be a top-notch smuggler?", to which I reply "yeah, but not by screwing my guys over. Honor amongst thieves and stuff."

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