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Piracy != Griefing


Bernarr

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You're asking the impossible.  People will get upset no matter how honorably or dishonorably their builds are destroyed.  In the end they are out of a lot of time and work either way.  It's how you deal with it in the aftermath that matters.  Do you go into a red rage and make vengeance your main priority and go on a killing spree?   Or do you learn from the experience and spend the time sending out spies, building back up, changing tactics, running drills, planning the perfect plan and then go after your revenge? 

 

But here we are again.  Do either of these responses automatically make you a griefer?  Maybe, maybe not.  Could be that the pirates are the ones who "technically" get griefed the most often from folks who can't let go of their anger over a perfectly legitimate pirate attack.

 

I think this is another one of those things that will need to be taken on a case-by-case basis.  IMO that's one of the main things wrong with most societies.  Everyone wants blanket laws for every little thing and that never works because people are all different and no two encounters happen under the same circumstances.  It's an exercise in futility.

 

Speaking of laws, ask anyone in CSYN how hard it is to make laws/rules I can't poke holes in :D

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Just to clarify, when I mentioned, "overstepping your bounds," I was referring mainly to acting in a way that gives your peers (other pirates) a bad reputation. (Above and beyond the "bad" rep of being a pirate. :) )

It is true that if you push society too far, you will probably regret it as well.

 

I never meant that pirates should try to operate within the confines of the law....because obviously....piracy is outlawed.

 

I see giving your target a chance to surrender and disabling the ship as perfectly acceptible concepts in the world of piracy, and doing so is exactly the type of conduct I hope to see!

 

And if someone messes with one of your crew for no reason, I would expect nothing less than retaliation in full to the party responsible.

 

Happy Hunting! :)

Terrible person behind the avatar is going to be subjective. Terrible people generally don't perceive themselves to be terrible people.

For me, it's a matter of good sportsmanship - which is lacking in a lot of MMORPG gamers. People who don't care about actively ruining the time other players invest in their play session are terrible people.

Plenty of competitive players who enjoy conflict that's it's easy enough to get your rocks off in battle... and leave the non-competitive players alone.

 

I don't understand why people abandon the concept of good sportsmanship in MMORPGs - beyond the fact that physical forms are safe behind the anonymity of the internet.

 

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I am a terrible person. I care about my own orgs fun. Any other org's fun is not my problem.

Well........it might become your problem if you take that mindset too far. :)

Ruin somebody elses fun too much and the backlash could easily be extensive.

 

Gain enough of a reputation as a "terrible person" and pretty soon there will be a line of bounty hunters on your trail, all on contract from your victims.

 

Acting at least remotely considerate will get you a lot farther than utter disregard for common decency, in my experience.

For those who are still bent on ruining the game for someone else, you will probably find "emergent" revenge painful and swift.

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Well........it might become your problem if you take that mindset too far. :)

Ruin somebody elses fun too much and the backlash could easily be extensive.

 

Gain enough of a reputation as a "terrible person" and pretty soon there will be a line of bounty hunters on your trail, all on contract from your victims.

 

Acting at least remotely considerate will get you a lot farther than utter disregard for common decency, in my experience.

For those who are still bent on ruining the game for someone else, you will probably find "emergent" revenge painful and swift.

 

And this is exactly where real pirates seperate from the want-to-be-douchebags.

 

I am a content creator for this game as I will make those 'citizens' live in fear of an attack. I will make them play together, help each other, watch over each other. I will kill and rob them if I get a chance. There's no fun in living in a pc-world where nothing ever happens to you.

And yes, they will hunt me. They will kill and possibly rob me too. It wouldn't be fun, if they didn't. But they will realize soon that, without a threat looming in the shadows, it will be a dull and boring on alioth et alii.

 

Want-to-be-douchebags don't realize that and either the attacker or the victim starts whining about some shit

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Well........it might become your problem if you take that mindset too far. :)

Ruin somebody elses fun too much and the backlash could easily be extensive.

 

Gain enough of a reputation as a "terrible person" and pretty soon there will be a line of bounty hunters on your trail, all on contract from your victims.

 

Acting at least remotely considerate will get you a lot farther than utter disregard for common decency, in my experience.

For those who are still bent on ruining the game for someone else, you will probably find "emergent" revenge painful and swift.

You really should understand that pirates treat bounties like an impromptu "Awesomeness Meter" instead of a :

 

"uuhhh, Bounty Hunters... uuuhhh, XxX_Boba_Fett_XxX_2K5 is coming after me, uhh, what will I do."

 

And space, is really big. Revenge is an interstellar level, is neither swift nor painful. Pirates, have no bases. They got harbors, where other pirates go to find a safe haven. You come in that harbor and shoot one of us, guess what, welcome to Tortuga, we like nothing more than shoot collectively back at you.

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Well........it might become your problem if you take that mindset too far. :)

Ruin somebody elses fun too much and the backlash could easily be extensive.

 

Gain enough of a reputation as a "terrible person" and pretty soon there will be a line of bounty hunters on your trail, all on contract from your victims.

 

Acting at least remotely considerate will get you a lot farther than utter disregard for common decency, in my experience.

For those who are still bent on ruining the game for someone else, you will probably find "emergent" revenge painful and swift.

 

Like Lethys said, true pirates are content creators, unless you want the simple mindless interaction with NPCs and AI-driven combat rather than the challenge of another person. But if that's the case, go play a game we've abandoned due to boredom. Or, ya know, Farmville.

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Like Lethys said, true pirates are content creators, unless you want the simple mindless interaction with NPCs and AI-driven combat rather than the challenge of another person. But if that's the case, go play a game we've abandoned due to boredom. Or, ya know, Farmville.

Technically, we are self generating content. We are the ultimate challenge in PVE, 

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I played my fair share of Ark: Survival Evolved on PS4 over the holiday break, and without a doubt I experienced more griefing in that game than any other game I've ever played. 

 

That includes the multitude of other Sandbox games like Minecraft, Rust, DayZ, Eve Online, etc. that I've played over the years. 

 

For a long period of time, my tribe of 35-40 members was completely locked down in our tiny stone house because the main tribe on the server felt it necessary to harass us constantly. We couldn't step foot outside of our house at any point without being shot by people with rifles and rocket launchers when we barely had stone spears to throw. Regardless of our levels, we were being picked up constantly by birds and dropped into the ocean.

 

All of this originating because we didn't want to join their tribe, so they decided to just eliminate us from the server entirely, or at least make the game as unenjoyable as possible. 

 

It made the game not very fun, and not really worth playing. You'd think after an hour or two of bothering us they'd just move on to another group, but for a week straight we were the target of all of their harassment. It got so bad that I had people messaging me on Reddit bothering me, and one guy even sent me 20 voice messages on PSN of him just screaming for 20-30 seconds at a time into his microphone. It was getting ridiculous so I just quit playing, I have plenty of other games on my backlog and it really wasn't worth the headache to be considered "the best" on a server with only 100 people max. I just have to wonder who raised these people to act like that. 

 

That's just the surface of it, and I don't particularly feel like diving into the griefing we suffered from disgruntled people in our own tribe who felt it necessary to start destroying our own buildings because they were having a fit.

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that at some point you do cross the line from "pirating" to just plain old griefing and harassment. That line is going to get a bit fuzzy in Dual Universe, but I think it's a fair request that it be kept in-game at the very least. I don't want to get into another situation where 50 people are sending me harassing messages because of something that happened in-game. 

 

I'm not the kind of person who is going to cry "griefing" every time my ship is destroyed, but when someone is killing me constantly as I spawn when I have absolutely nothing on me, or destroying everything I build everywhere I go simply because they dislike me as a person in real-life for days and weeks on end, then I have to wonder if that is grounds for making a report. 

 

If I just destroy a random base I find, I would argue that is very much different than repeated targeted harassment of an individual. 

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I don't believe in random harassment. There is a time and a place for griefing. But I do agree, greifing should be restricted to the game. It should not include people sending messages because you won't do X. It shouldn't involve anything personal outside of the game. People shouldn't be harassed into quitting a game. I am hopeful that people will band together and fight against us. Even if it does take us reappropriating some cargoes :) We don't discriminate. You can be fighting us while taking advantage of our grey-area services as well :D 

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Shooting any and everyone you come across regardless of needing the "loot" they have is your standard d-bag simulator experience.   This is what "ruins" games like Ark, Rust, 7D2D, etc.    Sure, you might need resources and come across a victim to loot.   More often than not you have players who need nothing and are bored so they just run around killinig any easy prey they can find and avoid the other dangerous players.

 

In many cases these d-bag simulator players focus on players that are offline and can't fight back.

 

In many of those games I listed, it's extremely common for new players to spawn and within minutes be killed by high levels for no reason (no loot or personal gain).  If they have a PvE safe zone for the starting areas, then these new players are often killed within minutes of venturing out.  Again, often for no reason.

 

It this game (and other similar games) don't bother to build proper PvP rule sets and gameplay they will contineut cater to the d-bags in PvP environments and force most other players into PvE private servers and creative mode.  In both cases it splits the community and keeps the total player base small.    Games like WoW, League of Legends, Overwatch, etc have massive player bases because they have solid rule sets that make the full experience enjoyable for everyone... not the small subset of d-bags that dedicate enough time to farm the new players and troll them till they quit.

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Shooting any and everyone you come across regardless of needing the "loot" they have is your standard d-bag simulator experience.   This is what "ruins" games like Ark, Rust, 7D2D, etc.    Sure, you might need resources and come across a victim to loot.   More often than not you have players who need nothing and are bored so they just run around killinig any easy prey they can find and avoid the other dangerous players.

 

In many cases these d-bag simulator players focus on players that are offline and can't fight back.

 

In many of those games I listed, it's extremely common for new players to spawn and within minutes be killed by high levels for no reason (no loot or personal gain).  If they have a PvE safe zone for the starting areas, then these new players are often killed within minutes of venturing out.  Again, often for no reason.

 

It this game (and other similar games) don't bother to build proper PvP rule sets and gameplay they will contineut cater to the d-bags in PvP environments and force most other players into PvE private servers and creative mode.  In both cases it splits the community and keeps the total player base small.    Games like WoW, League of Legends, Overwatch, etc have massive player bases because they have solid rule sets that make the full experience enjoyable for everyone... not the small subset of d-bags that dedicate enough time to farm the new players and troll them till they quit.

The game has a safezone, to prevent newbros from being camped before they can even learn how the game's mechanics work

 

In a sandbox game, the players are the villains and the heroes - although those two terms are relevant to the situation not the world.

 

If there are no "bad guys", then a game dies. Or becomes a dull voxel-building experience like Landmark.

 

Pirates or griefers don't ruin the game, they force people to come together and go after them. It forces people to congregate to cities, instead of everyone going solo.

 

Now, if you can't socialise and your game is "ruined" by piirates or griefers, then that's your issue, not the game's.

 

It's a team game, join one. Same goes for Ark or Day-Z or EVE or any other sandbox, multiplayer, game.

 

 

Also, League of Legends is not an MMO, it's a MOBA, a Multiplayer Online Battle Arena, key-word, Arena, it's meant to be a sport. So does WoW's Arenas and Overwatch is an FPS MOBA. 

 

And guess what, DU will have player-made arenas. It's just a scripted function on a construct and some Right & Duties Management System tags.

 

If you can't handle the dangerous space and are afraid of griefers, stay in a city and be a PvPer in Arenas. With all the betting that people will do, you'll probably make profit if you are good.

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Shooting any and everyone you come across regardless of needing the "loot" they have is your standard d-bag simulator experience. This is what "ruins" games like Ark, Rust, 7D2D, etc. Sure, you might need resources and come across a victim to loot. More often than not you have players who need nothing and are bored so they just run around killinig any easy prey they can find and avoid the other dangerous players.

 

In many cases these d-bag simulator players focus on players that are offline and can't fight back.

 

In many of those games I listed, it's extremely common for new players to spawn and within minutes be killed by high levels for no reason (no loot or personal gain). If they have a PvE safe zone for the starting areas, then these new players are often killed within minutes of venturing out. Again, often for no reason.

 

It this game (and other similar games) don't bother to build proper PvP rule sets and gameplay they will contineut cater to the d-bags in PvP environments and force most other players into PvE private servers and creative mode. In both cases it splits the community and keeps the total player base small. Games like WoW, League of Legends, Overwatch, etc have massive player bases because they have solid rule sets that make the full experience enjoyable for everyone... not the small subset of d-bags that dedicate enough time to farm the new players and troll them till they quit.

Nothing will be split as there is only one server. Read the devblogs and watch the videos - then you will realize NQ does a lot for newbros and their first impressions

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I played my fair share of Ark: Survival Evolved on PS4 over the holiday break, and without a doubt I experienced more griefing in that game than any other game I've ever played. 

 

That includes the multitude of other Sandbox games like Minecraft, Rust, DayZ, Eve Online, etc. that I've played over the years. 

 

For a long period of time, my tribe of 35-40 members was completely locked down in our tiny stone house because the main tribe on the server felt it necessary to harass us constantly. We couldn't step foot outside of our house at any point without being shot by people with rifles and rocket launchers when we barely had stone spears to throw. Regardless of our levels, we were being picked up constantly by birds and dropped into the ocean.

 

All of this originating because we didn't want to join their tribe, so they decided to just eliminate us from the server entirely, or at least make the game as unenjoyable as possible. 

 

It made the game not very fun, and not really worth playing. You'd think after an hour or two of bothering us they'd just move on to another group, but for a week straight we were the target of all of their harassment. It got so bad that I had people messaging me on Reddit bothering me, and one guy even sent me 20 voice messages on PSN of him just screaming for 20-30 seconds at a time into his microphone. It was getting ridiculous so I just quit playing, I have plenty of other games on my backlog and it really wasn't worth the headache to be considered "the best" on a server with only 100 people max. I just have to wonder who raised these people to act like that. 

 

That's just the surface of it, and I don't particularly feel like diving into the griefing we suffered from disgruntled people in our own tribe who felt it necessary to start destroying our own buildings because they were having a fit.

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that at some point you do cross the line from "pirating" to just plain old griefing and harassment. That line is going to get a bit fuzzy in Dual Universe, but I think it's a fair request that it be kept in-game at the very least. I don't want to get into another situation where 50 people are sending me harassing messages because of something that happened in-game. 

 

I'm not the kind of person who is going to cry "griefing" every time my ship is destroyed, but when someone is killing me constantly as I spawn when I have absolutely nothing on me, or destroying everything I build everywhere I go simply because they dislike me as a person in real-life for days and weeks on end, then I have to wonder if that is grounds for making a report. 

 

If I just destroy a random base I find, I would argue that is very much different than repeated targeted harassment of an individual.

 

That story is all about grieving and has absolutely nothing to with pirating.

Pirating != Griefing

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The sandbox label is really meaningless.

The DU devs aren't striving to create a "sandbox game".

As in, "We have to allow players to grief each other, otherwise it won't be a sandbox."

 

DU has safe zones.

Newbies can't be picked off as described in Ark.

We'll just have to see how well the devs are able to balance the opposing camps.

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The sandbox label is really meaningless.

The DU devs aren't striving to create a "sandbox game".

As in, "We have to allow players to grief each other, otherwise it won't be a sandbox."

 

DU has safe zones.

Newbies can't be picked off as described in Ark.

We'll just have to see how well the devs are able to balance the opposing camps.

http://www.dualthegame.com/

 

 

Right out of their front page :

 

"

WHAT IS DUAL UNIVERSE?

Dual Universe is a Continuous Single-Shard sandbox MMORPG taking place in a vast Sci-Fi universe, focusing on emergent gameplay with player-driven in-game economy, politics, trade and warfare. "

 

 

Emergent gameplay = being a dirtbag griefer, which I do not support.

 

But griefers are necessary, without them bounties don't really matter and notoriety is just non-existent

 

And if Westworld taught us anything, is that people like to play the villain.

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I covered that in what I wrote.

For instance, I'm not aware of sandboxes being built with safe areas that prevent people from knocking over sand castles not their own.

 

The devs are not so adherent to the concept of "sandbox" that they're going to not include arkified zones simply because sandboxes don't have safe zones.

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I covered that in what I wrote.

For instance, I'm not aware of sandboxes being built with safe areas that prevent people from knocking over sand castles not their own.

 

The devs are not so adherent to the concept of "sandbox" that they're going to not include arkified zones simply because sandboxes don't have safe zones.

OH, good for clearing that up then, my bad.

 

I thought you meant the game is not meant to be a sandbox :P

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While you can be sure I would blast a pirate into bits,its a game,lets not lose fact of that.If someone wants to be Space Blackbeard all the power to them.Where this becomes a problem is when people think piracy=sitoutsidespawnzonesandkillnewplayersforhoursonend which does and will happen because some people are just meanspirited that way.

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While you can be sure I would blast a pirate into bits,its a game,lets not lose fact of that.If someone wants to be Space Blackbeard all the power to them.Where this becomes a problem is when people think piracy=sitoutsidespawnzonesandkillnewplayersforhoursonend which does and will happen because some people are just meanspirited that way.

1) Agreed for the most part, BUT, safezones are 20km wide and they are meant for newbros or people who want t stay in them and not PvP, at all. That being said, given fuel and resources will work differently than EVE (the only otherr game with such a scale of players) the whole "gank out of the safezone" becomes "burn money for no gain", since newbros won't carry rare resources on them, or have expensive ships that people can show as achievements on their Killboards or w/e. To the contrary, if you were to be a serious pirate, you would be called an idiot for killing people with one hundredth of your ship's cost as their ship's cost.

 

"Oh, you beat someone with your 100 million battleship, while they flew a starfighter? You must be quite a pro" as an example. No pirate wants that and those who do so, will smply be stranded with a bad reputation and being blacklisted in every marketplace.

 

The whole "resource depletion" thing, makes the whole game work in a very different way than you might expect. Tactics like "sit out of the spawn" do not become as smart as one might think.

 

2) And even spawn campers, they are just playing the game as it's meant to be. If they start saying things like "lol [input mean words here] , learn to play" or saying things like "I %@%$ your mom" and all that tween angst crap, then yes, that's harrassment and they should be temporarily be banned and if they repeat it a lot, the temporary ban should be extended until they simply get perma-banned.

 

hy I'm making this diambiguation? Because Bounties are meant for people who stalk people out of safezones. Yeah, you see, that's the reason for bounties and they work in more ways than "punish a bad guy". If I want a hauler company to take a hit as of thier credibility, I put a bounty on all of their ships and then let the hordes of mercenaries go after them, destroying the hauler company's credibility. That's caleld Emergent Gameplay, specifically, Emergent Cutthroat Capitalism :P

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"Mean words" as harassment in a game is a silly concept when you can ignore text - especially when you can place other players on an ignore list.
Spawn camping is harassment as it impedes the gameplay of other players - especially when players are being physically bullied by more experienced players.

 

Whether spawn-camping is supported depends upon the specific game.
I doubt that spawn camping will be supported in DU... but that will most likely be a function of game mechanics since we can set our resurrection nodes in safe zones.

The power of a resurrection node is depleted once used, so we won't really be continuously respawning at the same resurrection node in a manner that will allow spawn camping. We respawn at the nearest active resurrection node. So, someone would have to know where all of their target's r-nodes are and somehow have people stationed there. Assuming that the nodes are powered. Otherwise, the target will respawn at the Ark, if the other r-nodes aren't powered.

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"Mean words" as harassment in a game is a silly concept when you can ignore text - especially when you can place other players on an ignore list.

Spawn camping is harassment as it impedes the gameplay of other players - especially when players are being physically bullied by more experienced players.

 

Whether spawn-camping is supported depends upon the specific game.

I doubt that spawn camping will be supported in DU... but that will most likely be a function of game mechanics since we can set our resurrection nodes in safe zones.

 

The power of a resurrection node is depleted once used, so we won't really be continuously respawning at the same resurrection node in a manner that will allow spawn camping. We respawn at the nearest active resurrection node. So, someone would have to know where all of their target's r-nodes are and somehow have people stationed there. Assuming that the nodes are powered. Otherwise, the target will respawn at the Ark, if the other r-nodes aren't powered.

And the best part, if there's no arbitrary "local chat", and people have to request a comms line with you directly, you can simply ignore people who want to spam you with colorful words - like it's done in EVE.

 

And yes, we seem to agree that the game mechanics will limit spawn camping, as I mentioned above, it's not a productive thing to kill for no reason. You burn fuel and gain nothing, not to mention ammunition and most imporantly, game time.

 

I mean, a bounty hunter would be paid on a kill on a player, so they burn money and making more money per shot or fuel charge they spend, but a random griefer would simply end up space poor, not to mention blacklisted everywhere. They gonna roll a new character? Well, they need to train again in order to start over.

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Players should be able to choose there own level or risk which the reflects great potential rewards.

 

Obviously in the ark zones you are totally safe but opportunities to advance are limited

 

Organisation will establish their own territories with their own law and police patrols. There is still a risk but it is much less than the lawless space. Territories in this context could be much greater than the tiles system supported by the game, an org might only have one or two TU in their main base/city but patrol and lay claim to a much larger area around them.

 

If you get killed by another player here you should go to your org and file a police report. The game should have a combat/action log that can be exported (and is verifiable by the game) that you can say, here this guy killed me here and this is all the stuff I lost. They can then decide what to do whether to request arbitration with the perp or issue a warrant for their arrest/termination/bounty or declare them an outlaw so that they are KOS for anyone affiliated with that org and they cannot conduct trade within the territory.

 

Different organisations will be able to secure the safety of their citizens, going out beyond the frontier or going places alone when security is not guaranteed will be tense but rewarding. 

 

Obviously police cant be everywhere at once but hopefully we could deploy scanners at the perimeter of territory to notify the police about player movement and relay that back to the HQ. Especially when a known pirate arrives in a territory, we would want to dispatch police gunships to intercept.

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