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Captain_Hilts

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Greetings,

 

I've looked around and haven't seen this discussed anywhere....

 

So here goes.

 

There should be a building tool that allows you to place a shape (eg a cube) and then define it's x, y, z, dimensions by quickly entering a set of numbers. For example with the cube - Width = 500m Depth = 5m Length = 5694m.

This would be very beneficial for large constructs as placing such a large thing seems it would be hard to do by "hand" as shown in the building demos. Also it would allow more precise measurements of what you are building verses having to count "blocks" which could be very tedious - especially for large constructs.

 

Anyway if this is not a thing already - I'd like to see it done.

Captain_Hilts out.

 

"You make good stuff Hilts." 

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It would be useful for sure. I have thought about how long it would take to make a ship in this game with the given voxels... And as anyone who plays creative games knows, making something in a game can take a very, very long time. Dual Universe, it looks to be similar to Space Engineers, except in DU you're basically making a large grid ship using small grid blocks. So, a very long time then.

 

I know in DU you can change the size of the voxels you place, but even so, the game needs some way to allow a person to speed up a build process. This idea could help, Hilts.

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All professions in DU need time to develop (infiltrators, commanders, tactician, guners, pilots). And builders need time to build their vast crafts. They need dozens of people to craft it, overseer who look after the right positioning of elements and a few who know the sketches. And they need lots of time. That's emergent gameplay.

You kill that if you would just allowm a lone wolf to build the skeleton of that ship in a matter of seconds. Yes it's tedious and it takes a lot of time - that's the whole point of it. This is not SE creative mode. It's a mmo where things can even go badly for your long built vessel.

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All professions in DU need time to develop (infiltrators, commanders, tactician, guners, pilots). And builders need time to build their vast crafts. They need dozens of people to craft it, overseer who look after the right positioning of elements and a few who know the sketches. And they need lots of time. That's emergent gameplay.

You kill that if you would just allowm a lone wolf to build the skeleton of that ship in a matter of seconds. Yes it's tedious and it takes a lot of time - that's the whole point of it. This is not SE creative mode. It's a mmo where things can even go badly for your long built vessel.

 

It sounds like you're saying they should make building harder as part of some sort of gameplay mechanic.

 

I definitely don't think that is a good idea at all.

 

Anything that can be done to help take the vision in someone's heads and put it in the game, should be done.  Obviously there needs to be resource costs and other stuff like that.  Creative mode is about free resources.  They've made it very clear we won't have that.

 

But the act of building should be made as easy and as enjoyable as possible.

 

They can limit how much you can build with resources.  No need to artificially slow down building.

 

edit: Just to clarify when i say "building" i mean design, NOT creation.  I don't think it should be easy for someone to create a fleet of ships.  I just don't think it should be artificially or intentionally tedious to design them either.  The challenge in building should be the creative process.  Not in the actual placing of the voxels. 

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It sounds like you're saying they should make building harder as part of some sort of gameplay mechanic.

 

I definitely don't think that is a good idea at all.

 

Anything that can be done to help take the vision in someone's heads and put it in the game, should be done. Obviously there needs to be resource costs and other stuff like that. Creative mode is about free resources. They've made it very clear we won't have that.

 

But the act of building should be made as easy and as enjoyable as possible.

 

They can limit how much you can build with resources. No need to artificially slow down building.

 

edit: Just to clarify when i say "building" i mean design, NOT creation. I don't think it should be easy for someone to create a fleet of ships. I just don't think it shouldn't be artificially or intentionally tedious to design them. The challenge in building should be the creative process. Not in the actual placing of the voxels.

I kind of disagree - surprise, surprise ;)

 

Yes it should be made....easy is the wrong term....let's say convenient. Mirror mode, creating beams of certain lengths (as proposed but not as long as you want), maybe even a copy/paste thing - all good if done right. What I'm against is a kind of creative mode (not as you thought I mean no resource cost) in the sense of: instantly create the whole (even rough) shape of the ship. This should be actual work. The hard part about building a ship is not the sketch, the hard part is actually really placing the voxels in the right position in order to get a wonderful design. Just look at those awesome SE designs: each one of them is special because of carefully placed elements which work together perfectly. THAT'S the hard part.

 

Everyone can sketch a ship which looks more or less great with all necessary stuff in it, but only true masters (those who know how to exactly place those voxels) can construct a ship which is in perfect balance of volume, intelligent design and usefulness

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I kind of disagree - surprise, surprise ;)

 

Yes it should be made....easy is the wrong term....let's say convenient. Mirror mode, creating beams of certain lengths (as proposed but not as long as you want), maybe even a copy/paste thing - all good if done right. What I'm against is a kind of creative mode (not as you thought I mean no resource cost) in the sense of: instantly create the whole (even rough) shape of the ship. This should be actual work. The hard part about building a ship is not the sketch, the hard part is actually really placing the voxels in the right position in order to get a wonderful design. Just look at those awesome SE designs: each one of them is special because of carefully placed elements which work together perfectly. THAT'S the hard part.

 

Everyone can sketch a ship which looks more or less great with all necessary stuff in it, but only true masters (those who know how to exactly place those voxels) can construct a ship which is in perfect balance of volume, intelligent design and usefulness

 

 

I think you're misunderstanding what the OP is suggesting.  He just said.

 

 

There should be a building tool that allows you to place a shape (eg a cube) and then define it's x, y, z, dimensions by quickly entering a set of numbers.

 

That would be incredibly useful just for laying out the design of a ship.  In Landmark I had to constantly use the selection tool as a ruler to measure things out.

 

What you're describing sounds more like a separate 3d design program that would let people import their designs into Dual and use them to stamp out a voxel shape.  That's a totally different subject.  It is an interesting discussion since we know it's possible because of those huge ships in the videos.  But if that is what you are talking about i agree that it's a bad idea.  The building should be done in game.  But that's a topic for another thread.

 

What the OP suggested is an excellent idea.  There is so much math in designing things on a grid.  Being able to set the dimensions of the building tools and the selection tool by entering numbers would be really useful.  

 

Also being able to set the location of elements and voxel selections in the world using an x,y,z coordinate would be amazing.

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That would be incredibly useful just for laying out the design of a ship.  In Landmark I had to constantly use the selection tool as a ruler to measure things out.

 

What the OP suggested is an excellent idea.  There is so much math in designing things on a grid.  Being able to set the dimensions of the building tools and the selection tool by entering numbers would be really useful.  

 

...

 

Also being able to set the location of elements and voxel selections in the world using an x,y,z coordinate would be amazing.

Maybe have it as a ghost image? Remember, there is a 'creative mode' of sorts, but it can only used to create blueprints, and is better for ships than organic land bases.

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I think you're misunderstanding what the OP is suggesting.  He just said.

 

 

That would be incredibly useful just for laying out the design of a ship.  In Landmark I had to constantly use the selection tool as a ruler to measure things out.

 

What you're describing sounds more like a separate 3d design program that would let people import their designs into Dual and use them to stamp out a voxel shape.  That's a totally different subject.  It is an interesting discussion since we know it's possible because of those huge ships in the videos.  But if that is what you are talking about i agree that it's a bad idea.  The building should be done in game.  But that's a topic for another thread.

 

What the OP suggested is an excellent idea.  There is so much math in designing things on a grid.  Being able to set the dimensions of the building tools and the selection tool by entering numbers would be really useful.  

 

Also being able to set the location of elements and voxel selections in the world using an x,y,z coordinate would be amazing.

 

Yup, he wants it to build the ship - as he said - so he doesn't have to count tiles. I perfectly understand that. I'm fine with, as suggested by mrjacobean, with some kind of translucent figure or even a solid 1x1x500 tiles plate for example.

 

I'm just against some tools which allow players to quickly build huge constructs. Large ships, bases, cities and the like SHOULD take a while to build. It SHOULD be hard to master those things, it SHOULD take manpower and organization.

I can tell you now what will happen if this would be implemented:

- gather/buy resources to construct your 1km ship

- build a box with 100x100x1000m in 5secs

- slap some engines onto it, distribute weapons, cockpit and essential elements

- wreck havoc

 

Guess what happens in an org with 2000 members - they just build 400 of those real quick and overrun everyone.

 

Yes I know this is exaggerated and won't likely happen.

 

Point is, we don't know yet how blueprints are handled (please give a link if I missed anything):

- Will it be like "buy blueprint, you see what ore/material you need, gather that and just build it automatically in a 3D printer" (like eve)

- Or will that BP just give you a translucent overlay in-game and you have to build it by hand?

 

Depending how ships are constructed from blueprints, you have to balance the process in order to

- hamper big nations to build massive, blocky ships en masse

- encourage players to try build something big and achieve that in a reasonable amount of time

- prohibit the need of building a ship twice, which would just be annoying (like building it for a blueprint and then you have to construct every block by hand again from that blueprint)

 

IMHO this topic involves more that just "it would be nice to have a mechanic where I can build a cube within seconds because I want to build stuff". You have to look at every aspect here which involves PVP, competing players, huge alliances, player behaviour, balancing mechanics and much more

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One way of restricting block structures/ships is to change the properties (e.g. strength) of a material based on how thick it is, like how far it goes without either a different material or a gap.

 

probably a massive pain to implement, but still.

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Yup, he wants it to build the ship - as he said - so he doesn't have to count tiles. I perfectly understand that. I'm fine with, as suggested by mrjacobean, with some kind of translucent figure or even a solid 1x1x500 tiles plate for example.

 

I'm just against some tools which allow players to quickly build huge constructs. Large ships, bases, cities and the like SHOULD take a while to build. It SHOULD be hard to master those things, it SHOULD take manpower and organization.

I can tell you now what will happen if this would be implemented:

- gather/buy resources to construct your 1km ship

- build a box with 100x100x1000m in 5secs

- slap some engines onto it, distribute weapons, cockpit and essential elements

- wreck havoc

 

Guess what happens in an org with 2000 members - they just build 400 of those real quick and overrun everyone.

 

Yes I know this is exaggerated and won't likely happen.

 

Point is, we don't know yet how blueprints are handled (please give a link if I missed anything):

- Will it be like "buy blueprint, you see what ore/material you need, gather that and just build it automatically in a 3D printer" (like eve)

- Or will that BP just give you a translucent overlay in-game and you have to build it by hand?

 

Depending how ships are constructed from blueprints, you have to balance the process in order to

- hamper big nations to build massive, blocky ships en masse

- encourage players to try build something big and achieve that in a reasonable amount of time

- prohibit the need of building a ship twice, which would just be annoying (like building it for a blueprint and then you have to construct every block by hand again from that blueprint)

 

IMHO this topic involves more that just "it would be nice to have a mechanic where I can build a cube within seconds because I want to build stuff". You have to look at every aspect here which involves PVP, competing players, huge alliances, player behaviour, balancing mechanics and much more

Indeed, this is not "creative mode" all the time. If a person can build a castle in 30 minutes, that means you can build a barracks in 3 minutes, or a cover for troops in 1 minute, and suddenly, not real collective effort is required as of engineering corps within a faction

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Yup, he wants it to build the ship - as he said - so he doesn't have to count tiles. I perfectly understand that. I'm fine with, as suggested by mrjacobean, with some kind of translucent figure or even a solid 1x1x500 tiles plate for example.

 

I'm just against some tools which allow players to quickly build huge constructs. Large ships, bases, cities and the like SHOULD take a while to build. It SHOULD be hard to master those things, it SHOULD take manpower and organization.

I can tell you now what will happen if this would be implemented:

- gather/buy resources to construct your 1km ship

- build a box with 100x100x1000m in 5secs

- slap some engines onto it, distribute weapons, cockpit and essential elements

- wreck havoc

 

Guess what happens in an org with 2000 members - they just build 400 of those real quick and overrun everyone.

 

Yes I know this is exaggerated and won't likely happen.

 

Point is, we don't know yet how blueprints are handled (please give a link if I missed anything):

- Will it be like "buy blueprint, you see what ore/material you need, gather that and just build it automatically in a 3D printer" (like eve)

- Or will that BP just give you a translucent overlay in-game and you have to build it by hand?

 

Depending how ships are constructed from blueprints, you have to balance the process in order to

- hamper big nations to build massive, blocky ships en masse

- encourage players to try build something big and achieve that in a reasonable amount of time

- prohibit the need of building a ship twice, which would just be annoying (like building it for a blueprint and then you have to construct every block by hand again from that blueprint)

 

IMHO this topic involves more that just "it would be nice to have a mechanic where I can build a cube within seconds because I want to build stuff". You have to look at every aspect here which involves PVP, competing players, huge alliances, player behaviour, balancing mechanics and much more

 

 

This is just silly.  It's like we're having two totally different discussions. 

 

I think you may want to read up on how the building tools are going to work.  We aren't going to be placing voxels one at a time.

 

Creating a huge block of voxels will be as simple as creating a selection box that size and clicking FILL.  Boom done.

 

All i'm asking for is the ability to create that box with precise dimensions.

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Maybe i can help explain a little better for those who are stuck in a Space Engineers mind set.

 

With Dual Contouring we have the ability to create a huge variety of shapes.  But getting to those shapes isn't always easy.

 

For example say you wanted to make a long curved ship that tapers slightly to a point at the front.  There's no way to create that shape one block at a time.  But what you can do is create a huge 1000 voxel sphere with the sphere tool.  Then cut a slice from the center to create a flat round disc.  Then cut a piece from that disc to create the curved outline of you're ship.

 

This is all done by copying and pasting, and filling and deleting HUGE selections.

 

You just don't build one block at a time with an engine this powerful.

 

I'm sorry but they aren't going to limit creativity or force people to build slower just to balance combat.  That can be done other ways.

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Maybe i can help explain a little better for those who are stuck in a Space Engineers mind set.

 

With Dual Contouring we have the ability to create a huge variety of shapes. But getting to those shapes isn't always easy.

 

For example say you wanted to make a long curved ship that tapers slightly to a point at the front. There's no way to create that shape one block at a time. But what you can do is create a huge 1000 voxel sphere with the sphere tool. Then cut a slice from the center to create a flat round disc. Then cut a piece from that disc to create the curved outline of you're ship.

 

This is all done by copying and pasting, and filling and deleting HUGE selections.

 

You just don't build one block at a time with an engine this powerful.

 

I'm sorry but they aren't going to limit creativity or force people to build slower just to balance combat. That can be done other ways.

I don't know how they will tackle the problem of huge alliances building huge ships very fast and just overrun everyone else. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To me, this is a balance problem with builders. But then again I'm a special snowflake

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I don't know how they will tackle the problem of huge alliances building huge ships very fast and just overrun everyone else. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To me, this is a balance problem with builders. But then again I'm a special snowflake

 

 

Once someone designs a ship, they will be able to create a blueprint of that ship and then duplicate it.  Assuming they have the resources.

 

Clearly NQ will need to balance and limit peoples ability to reproduce Blueprints on the fly.

 

What do you think is more likely?  Someone building a fleet from scratch during a battle?  Or someone simply duplicating pre-designed blueprints as fast as they can.

 

Which do you think would be faster?

 

They don't need to intentionally make building/design harder.  All they have to do is limit where, when, and how fast someone can reproduce constructs from a Blueprint.

 

This literally has NOTHING to do with the OP and i feel like you're just derailing to hear yourself talk.

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Once someone designs a ship, they will be able to create a blueprint of that ship and then duplicate it. Assuming they have the resources.

 

Clearly NQ will need to balance and limit peoples ability to reproduce Blueprints on the fly.

 

What do you think is more likely? Someone building a fleet from scratch during a battle? Or someone simply duplicating pre-designed blueprints as fast as they can.

 

Which do you think would be faster?

 

They don't need to intentionally make building/design harder. All they have to do is limit where, when, and how fast someone can reproduce constructs from a Blueprint.

 

This literally has NOTHING to do with the OP and i feel like you're just derailing to hear yourself talk.

Since I got no answer the first time, I ask again because maybe I missed something (as already said): How do they plan to implement BP production? No assumptions please, a link is enough. I really don't know and the answer may render either your argument useless or mine.

 

And yes, if I could I would clone myself to hear me talk all day

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Since I got no answer the first time, I ask again because maybe I missed something (as already said): How do they plan to implement BP production? No assumptions please, a link is enough. I really don't know and the answer may render either your argument useless or mine.

 

And yes, if I could I would clone myself to hear me talk all day

 

 

I'm not going to waste any more time with your straw man arguments.

 

If you want to discuss Blueprint production start your own topic.  Personally i don't think there's anything to discuss until we know how it will be implemented.

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I am a thoughtful pirate (whoa - that was unsuspected) and I love gameplay ideas. BUT you have to consider everything that is involved and I merely pointed that out. This is a discussion about a topic and I stated my worries - nothing more.

 

Now that I know I didn't miss anything about BP production (and yes that is linked to building) lets take your argument again:

 

Once someone designs a ship, they will be able to create a blueprint of that ship and then duplicate it.  Assuming they have the resources.

 

Clearly NQ will need to balance and limit peoples ability to reproduce Blueprints on the fly.

 

What do you think is more likely?  Someone building a fleet from scratch during a battle?  Or someone simply duplicating pre-designed blueprints as fast as they can.

 

Which do you think would be faster?

 

They don't need to intentionally make building/design harder.  All they have to do is limit where, when, and how fast someone can reproduce constructs from a Blueprint.

 

This literally has NOTHING to do with the OP and i feel like you're just derailing to hear yourself talk.

 

We DON'T know how the production of BPs will be as I stated here

 

(...)

Point is, we don't know yet how blueprints are handled (please give a link if I missed anything):

- Will it be like "buy blueprint, you see what ore/material you need, gather that and just build it automatically in a 3D printer" (like eve)

- Or will that BP just give you a translucent overlay in-game and you have to build it by hand?

 

Depending how ships are constructed from blueprints, you have to balance the process in order to

- hamper big nations to build massive, blocky ships en masse

- encourage players to try build something big and achieve that in a reasonable amount of time

- prohibit the need of building a ship twice, which would just be annoying (like building it for a blueprint and then you have to construct every block by hand again from that blueprint)

(...)

 

So, as the thoughtful pirate I am, I just think out loud and speak my worries. I just can't see why this is wrong, sorry.

 

I was using the wrong terms and words - DU is NOT SE with those blocks we all know -  I completely agree with that. And I get your point about building stuff (which you described perfectly).

 

But imho people have to think about the whole game and not just one aspect of it, otherwise this whole thing will be broken.

 

So this whole tool boils down to:

- If a BP is just "instantly" (may still take hours-days, depending how they implement it) produced -> sure, why not have this tool in that "creative space/VR/safe building zone thing" (ONLY HERE! As you can only build BPs). A large alliance with thousands of players can then "only" produce as many ships as there are resources

- If a BP is just some kind of overlay/UI thing -> more difficult imho because the boxship of doom is lurking in the shadows here

- In-game (outside that VR zone for BPs) -> more difficult imho because the boxship of doom is lurking in the shadows here too

 

I'm NOT against this idea per se, I'm just against this idea being implemented in all instances of the game. It's fine if it's in that "creative space/VR/safe building zone thing" because then you limit the harm it can do to pvp

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snip

Just to remind you that you could have a ghost image of it when not in the simulator. Whether you are the only one who can see it, if your friends can see it, or everyone can see it, is a matter of preference.

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Just to remind you that you could have a ghost image of it when not in the simulator. Whether you are the only one who can see it, if your friends can see it, or everyone can see it, is a matter of preference.

My quote:

- If a BP is just some kind of overlay/UI thing -> more difficult imho because the boxship of doom is lurking in the shadows here

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My quote:

- If a BP is just some kind of overlay/UI thing -> more difficult imho because the boxship of doom is lurking in the shadows here

The Boxship of doom is the same as the boxhouse of ergh in minecraft. They will exist. We shouldn't be getting rid of tools so that "less experienced" builders can't use them as that hurts the builders of the monuments and megatowers. As a compromise, we could have the ghost image ability locked behind a skill tree, just as you would keep knives out of reach of toddlers.

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The Boxship of doom is the same as the boxhouse of ergh in minecraft. They will exist. We shouldn't be getting rid of tools so that "less experienced" builders can't use them as that hurts the builders of the monuments and megatowers. As a compromise, we could have the ghost image ability locked behind a skill tree, just as you would keep knives out of reach of toddlers.

It was more because I wrote the same thing as you did.

 

Well tying that tool to a hard to get skill (carrier V in eve terms for example) would change a lot indeed

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In my opinion, skill training should increase efficiency, not "unlock" tools

You got "Nanoformer Deployment I ", then you can build up to 10 m3 of space at once
You get "Nanoformer Deployment II ", you get to 100 m3 of space at once on voxel deployment

Same thing can be done for tools. You got "Blueprint Overlaying" and "Blueprint Deployment" as skill trainings. Blueprint Overlaying gives you bonus on how big of an object you can Blueprint. Blueprint Deployment gives you bonus on how much of a Blueprint you can deploy at once (which ties with Engineering skills for what kind of Blueprints you can put into a Factory Unit to mass produce it).

Now, the holographic representation of a construct, ala Real-Time Strategy games, could be a neat trick for collective efforts, which would mean that 10 people, may carry the materials for making a wall, with the overseer of the group, setting up the hologram of the BP on a place, and ten people pumping in materials into the construct's Nanofield (since that's the lore name after all) to materialise the constrct, again, ala RTS gameplay, ten peons = barracks get built in 1/10th of the original timer for deployment. This, would require people to have said Blueprint Deployment trained of course, and trained to the appropriate skill level in order to contribute in the building effort. And yes, engineering and Blueprint Deployment could tie into repairing of a Blueprint Grid around a Core Unit, AKA how repairs are most likely going to work (since it makes a lot of sense by what the devs explains on Voxel grids around Core Units).

See, you don't have to "block" skills from people, you only have to quantify their effectiveness and have them behind a period of time to get to the highest level of efficiency.

The arguement "make it as difficult as Carrier V" to get, is moot, when you realise that Carriers take about 145 days of training in EVE, but they actually need 234 days of training if you don't want to run from a fight with a frigate. Call me crazy, but if a builder has to wait a year almost to get access to a tool they actually DEPEND on, they will bail on the game pronto.

Make their gameplay difficult by giving them limitations on how much they can build before their construct becomes too much for them to "carry" with them as a Blueprint. You wanna build an Eiffel Tower in-game? Good, train your Blueprint Overlaying skill to III, because that thing is huge for your Blueprint Overlaying I.

These are my two cents. Cheers!

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In my opinion, skill training should increase efficiency, not "unlock" tools

 

You got "Nanoformer Deployment I ", then you can build up to 10 m3 of space at once

You get "Nanoformer Deployment II ", you get to 100 m3 of space at once on voxel deployment

 

Same thing can be done for tools. You got "Blueprint Overlaying" and "Blueprint Deployment" as skill trainings. Blueprint Overlaying gives you bonus on how big of an object you can Blueprint. Blueprint Deployment gives you bonus on how much of a Blueprint you can deploy at once (which ties with Engineering skills for what kind of Blueprints you can put into a Factory Unit to mass produce it).

 

Now, the holographic representation of a construct, ala Real-Time Strategy games, could be a neat trick for collective efforts, which would mean that 10 people, may carry the materials for making a wall, with the overseer of the group, setting up the hologram of the BP on a place, and ten people pumping in materials into the construct's Nanofield (since that's the lore name after all) to materialise the constrct, again, ala RTS gameplay, ten peons = barracks get built in 1/10th of the original timer for deployment. This, would require people to have said Blueprint Deployment trained of course, and trained to the appropriate skill level in order to contribute in the building effort. And yes, engineering and Blueprint Deployment could tie into repairing of a Blueprint Grid around a Core Unit, AKA how repairs are most likely going to work (since it makes a lot of sense by what the devs explains on Voxel grids around Core Units).

 

See, you don't have to "block" skills from people, you only have to quantify their effectiveness and have them behind a period of time to get to the highest level of efficiency.

 

The arguement "make it as difficult as Carrier V" to get, is moot, when you realise that Carriers take about 145 days of training in EVE, but they actually need 234 days of training if you don't want to run from a fight with a frigate. Call me crazy, but if a builder has to wait a year almost to get access to a tool they actually DEPEND on, they will bail on the game pronto.

 

Make their gameplay difficult by giving them limitations on how much they can build before their construct becomes too much for them to "carry" with them as a Blueprint. You wanna build an Eiffel Tower in-game? Good, train your Blueprint Overlaying skill to III, because that thing is huge for your Blueprint Overlaying I.

 

These are my two cents. Cheers!

Pinpoint accuracy as ever, my dear sir.

 

Carrier V would be a bit harsh, that's true, but in a context of a game where we will most likely spend the first weeks to months anyway on the same planet, it's not that hard anymore. The first titan in eve was built 1k year or so after release - that would match.

 

But your suggestion is all the way better. Since it's Christmas I don't have time to think more about it :P

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