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Lethys

Timer on shields

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Hi there

 

as JC mentioned in

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/10461-any-french-language-speakers-willing-to-translate-jcs-talk/

at 55:16

 

"There are ways to protect the players: there are safezones but also territories you can own to create relative safe strips of land and also there are protection bubbles which are expensive and hard to destroy, for those there is a timer of 48h in order for players to react"

 

IMHO this shield ONLY

- applies to immovable constructs (no ships!)

- is some sort of construct itself (or a mod to a market for example)

- is not related to the territory unit at all

 

I have played eve. Alot. Too much. Hard timers like this one are just no fun - in DU it's even more complicated.

 

So you have claimed your piece of land on an outer rim planet with a TU and have built a market there with a nice small shield to protect it from big bad pirates. But they know you are there and there is loot - so they come. Since your stargate may be destroyed/locked to others, they need to travel to you - which could take weeks. They bring 500 ships with them and when they arrive, they shoot once and ..... wait. 48h until that reinforcement timer runs out. Then they just kill that shield with their overwhelming firepower and take everything they want. So where was the point in building that shield again?

 

If there is only a hard 48h timer on those shields:

- The attackers will come in their primetime - never in yours. So for defense you will always have trouble finding enough people to defend, even with an org spread around the world

- If they come with enough force, it doesn't matter much if there is a shield or not - favor of the blob

- For the defender it's no fun because he just can watch being defeated and for the attackers it's no fun because it boils down to a boring waiting game

 

So what better mechanics could you think of? What would be a fair deal with those shields that encourages emergent gameplay?

 

You could just implement a maximum dps transfered to the shield - so it doesn't matter how many ships attack. You could harden the shields, instead of adding a timer. But done poorly it only boils down to: the attackers have to shoot for 48h on that shield - constantly - to take it down - that's just boring.

 

I can think of two scenarios:

 

- The stargate to your world is shut down or locked

 

- The stargate is useable or the attackers are on the same world already

 

The first scenario would be the most easy way to solve. Since you are alone there and you want it that way, you could just install huge antennas / radars / whatever to scan for ships which are inbound. Make a radar technician a thing and scan for ships - you have your time to react then.

 

The second scenario is tricky.

You would need some sort of timer, may it be obvious (hard 48h timer) or hidden (harden the shield / maximum dps), otherwise it would just not be balanced.

 

I have no 100% working solution to this, because it's a very hard to balance mechanic in a game. I have something in mind and will throw some arguments, posting my idea later:

 

- Spy/Hacker is used to bring down shield faster/completely

- maximum dps

- the more defenders/attackers -> the more hp the shield has

- Hacker is used to deny the defenders a message that their shield is under attack

- a special ship/construct/weapon is used to kill the shield at a faster rate/completely

- adjustable timer

 

So what to do?

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Hi there

 

as JC mentioned in

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/10461-any-french-language-speakers-willing-to-translate-jcs-talk/

at 55:16

 

"There are ways to protect the players: there are safezones but also territories you can own to create relative safe strips of land and also there are protection bubbles which are expensive and hard to destroy, for those there is a timer of 48h in order for players to react"

 

IMHO this shield ONLY

- applies to immovable constructs (no ships!)

- is some sort of construct itself (or a mod to a market for example)

- is not related to the territory unit at all

 

I have played eve. Alot. Too much. Hard timers like this one are just no fun - in DU it's even more complicated.

 

So you have claimed your piece of land on an outer rim planet with a TU and have built a market there with a nice small shield to protect it from big bad pirates. But they know you are there and there is loot - so they come. Since your stargate may be destroyed/locked to others, they need to travel to you - which could take weeks. They bring 500 ships with them and when they arrive, they shoot once and ..... wait. 48h until that reinforcement timer runs out. Then they just kill that shield with their overwhelming firepower and take everything they want. So where was the point in building that shield again?

 

If there is only a hard 48h timer on those shields:

- The attackers will come in their primetime - never in yours. So for defense you will always have trouble finding enough people to defend, even with an org spread around the world

- If they come with enough force, it doesn't matter much if there is a shield or not - favor of the blob

- For the defender it's no fun because he just can watch being defeated and for the attackers it's no fun because it boils down to a boring waiting game

 

So what better mechanics could you think of? What would be a fair deal with those shields that encourages emergent gameplay?

 

You could just implement a maximum dps transfered to the shield - so it doesn't matter how many ships attack. You could harden the shields, instead of adding a timer. But done poorly it only boils down to: the attackers have to shoot for 48h on that shield - constantly - to take it down - that's just boring.

 

I can think of two scenarios:

 

- The stargate to your world is shut down or locked

 

- The stargate is useable or the attackers are on the same world already

 

The first scenario would be the most easy way to solve. Since you are alone there and you want it that way, you could just install huge antennas / radars / whatever to scan for ships which are inbound. Make a radar technician a thing and scan for ships - you have your time to react then.

 

The second scenario is tricky.

You would need some sort of timer, may it be obvious (hard 48h timer) or hidden (harden the shield / maximum dps), otherwise it would just not be balanced.

 

I have no 100% working solution to this, because it's a very hard to balance mechanic in a game. I have something in mind and will throw some arguments, posting my idea later:

 

- Spy/Hacker is used to bring down shield faster/completely

- maximum dps

- the more defenders/attackers -> the more hp the shield has

- Hacker is used to deny the defenders a message that their shield is under attack

- a special ship/construct/weapon is used to kill the shield at a faster rate/completely

- adjustable timer

 

So what to do?

Hi,

 

Just going to throw in my 2 cents. :)

 

- With regards to the spy/hacker bringing the shield down or even modifying settings like the warning message, that would make sense, especially since it was already mentioned in one of the video's that a hacker can also hack a TU, so why not the shield.

- The maximum dps will only really promote blobs (see Eve and citadels), not sure that would be the best option for DU

- I like the option where the shield's power would be proportional to the attacking/defending force. So if the defending force is a lot bigger then the attacking force, make the shield a little weaker and if the attacking force is a lot bigger then make the shield stronger to balance the odds a little. In essence making the battles a lot more engaging for all sides (no pun intended).

- I like the "specialised shield killer" type ship/module option as well, that would promote some teamwork on the side of the attackers that would be similar to the "wild weasel" teams where one aircraft baits a radar and another kills it with a HARM.

 

It would be really nice to have a combination of the options, not just a single one.

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My suggestion, is simple.

Make the timers go away, add "Escalation Hardening". The more constructs shoot the shield in a short period, the stronger a shield gets. That means that a horde of 100 ships will be met with a 100% hardening of the shield (depending on its tier level) which means the defenders got time to retaliate, while if a single ship attacks the shield, the shield gets no hardening.

THAT would create the need for "Shield-Breaker" ships, which would have to be massive to accomodate a lot of weaponry, therefore they would be slow and they would be the perfect demonstration of a Titan in DU.

And let's face it, a battle around an enormous Shield-Breaker ship would be something that's actually epic, and would create a sense of urgency for both sides, let alone boarding parties going on.

48 hour timers work in EVE, due to how easy it is to pass between systems. It doesn't work in DU the same, since gates will be shut for enemies and I don't think a faction, no matter what org it is, will be that stupid to have their stargates unattended by security people, for the stargate to be (possibly) hacked, so that arguement is off the table.


As for SAFEZONES (not to be confused with player-made bubbles) safezones should have an ACTUAL 48 hours timer,  so they can act as a "citadel" to a star system, the last fortress to fall. The Safezone around the starting Arkship is excluded from that mechanic.


And oh god, I hope there's no protection bubbles for every single ship. I mean, a cruiser or higher level ship, sure, there should be a defense measure like a force field, that renders the ship inert (immobilisation) but in exchange makes it have a really powerful shield around it, subject to the same Escalation Hardening I mentioned above. Having every single corvette and frigate have a magic shield of immunity, woul dfuse the point of having space-stations for people to dock in or on under the station's own protection bubble. Battleships would NEED said limited shield, as they won't be able to dock on a station (and let's face it, they won't, too big to fit :P ) .

 L

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Yeah protection bubbles like that for ships would be a really bad idea.

 

Shields are fine, just an additional layer to kill before the ship goes *pop* , but the protection bubbles should be reserved for planetary (or asteroid) instalations only.

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If there is only a hard 48h timer on those shields:

- The attackers will come in their primetime - never in yours. So for defense you will always have trouble finding enough people to defend, even with an org spread around the world

- If they come with enough force, it doesn't matter much if there is a shield or not - favor of the blob

- For the defender it's no fun because he just can watch being defeated and for the attackers it's no fun because it boils down to a boring waiting game

 

So what better mechanics could you think of? What would be a fair deal with those shields that encourages emergent gameplay?

 

Would it be better if they let you set the time that it comes out of hardened mode? Like you could set it for 6:00pm, and it will harden for 24 hours plus to 6:00pm. That would give more advantage to the defender.

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Would it be better if they let you set the time that it comes out of hardened mode? Like you could set it for 6:00pm, and it will harden for 24 hours plus to 6:00pm. That would give more advantage to the defender.

 

Exactly. The defender should get the right to choose when his shield exits reinforcement (from somewhere between 36 - 48h - if it's a hard number ofc!) and the attacker doesn't know that amount of time.

 

What about player experience? All numbers are examples!

Like:

- 1 attacker needs 48h to shoot it down

- 10 attackers need 36h

- 20 - 1000 attackers need 32h (harden the shield / damage mitigration / whatever)

BUT

- shield recharge rate (or someone actively reinforcing it?) needs minimum of 15 attackers to be overcome by

 

You can't kill a shield alone, a small group can't do it either and larger ones still need 32h.

 

Bring in the 'Shield detonator' (construct/weapon)

- immobile/fat/easy target/vulnerable/easy to kill so attackers need to watch over it

- needs spool up time of 12h

- kills 50% of the shield / deactivates recharge

- is rendered useless (but flyable?) for 12h

 

So the defenders can still react and even if the detonator goes off, they still have hours left to organize something.

 

What I don't like about this:

- blob wins (as attacker just bring 5times the ships/manpower) so defenders have no chance in destroying the detonator

- small groups will have a hard time getting shields destroyed (not enough ships/manpower to overcome recharge or man every crucial position)

 

To counter those problems:

Add maybe the possibility to kill the shield/recharge rate with hackers (emergent gameplay, spy stuff, ninjas)

 

Countering blobs is always hard, I think there is no real solution to that one

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For the 48h timer I was thinking it would work more like once you first activate it lasts for 48h which allows you to do other stuff and not just babysit your stuff. Then once that timer gets close to ending you can reset it by paying again or adding more resources to it that you did in the initial setup. So if you're active you can keep the shield up all the time. Also I think they said we get a warning even if offline when any of our assets gets attacked so can log in reset or reinforce your shield or call in allies to help defend etc.

 

Beyond that ways to take down a shield will likely exist as well but the main point is that the player should always be able to have some time to react. 4am raids are beyond lame and anything they can do to reduce or eliminate it the better for the game.

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For the 48h timer I was thinking it would work more like once you first activate it lasts for 48h which allows you to do other stuff and not just babysit your stuff. Then once that timer gets close to ending you can reset it by paying again or adding more resources to it that you did in the initial setup. So if you're active you can keep the shield up all the time. Also I think they said we get a warning even if offline when any of our assets gets attacked so can log in reset or reinforce your shield or call in allies to help defend etc.

 

Beyond that ways to take down a shield will likely exist as well but the main point is that the player should always be able to have some time to react. 4am raids are beyond lame and anything they can do to reduce or eliminate it the better for the game.

 

The shields are meant for territories and they cost a lot. You won't be sustaining a 1 km side hexagon tile territory on your own, at least, not without being an easy target. Shields are meant for communities / cities / trade-hubs, which won't be abandonded when you go offline.

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The shields are meant for territories and they cost a lot. You won't be sustaining a 1 km side hexagon tile territory on your own, at least, not without being an easy target. Shields are meant for communities / cities / trade-hubs, which won't be abandonded when you go offline.

Pretty sure they also mentioned some sort of shields or protection for our personal constructs, houses and such. Wouldn't really be fair if only way to protect your stuff is to be a part of a large city or Org or just stay back in the Ark safe zone.

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Pretty sure they also mentioned some sort of shields or protection for our personal constructs, houses and such. Wouldn't really be fair if only way to protect your stuff is to be a part of a large city or Org or just stay back in the Ark safe zone.

If you provide a link, I would believe you ;)

 

If such a shield would exist, they completely kill piracy with that. No robbing, no stealing, no trespassing, no ransom, no loot.

 

In DU you can't be part of a 10man org and think you're safe (except the arkzone), you have to be part of a bigger nation, org, alliance in order to keep you safe in this hostile new world - that's the whole point of emergent gameplay

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If you provide a link, I would believe you ;)

 

If such a shield would exist, they completely kill piracy with that. No robbing, no stealing, no trespassing, no ransom, no loot.

 

In DU you can't be part of a 10man org and think you're safe (except the arkzone), you have to be part of a bigger nation, org, alliance in order to keep you safe in this hostile new world - that's the whole point of emergent gameplay

No it would simply kill the player not having a defense against those things. Like I said in post above there will likely be ways to take down shields but simply waiting for timers to go down, or waiting for players to log and raid at 4am is lame gameplay that should be avoided at all costs. Players regardless of play style and group size need to have ways to protect themselves and their assets.

 

It being a sandbox means there will also be solo and small group players. Saying they HAVE to be a part of something big pretty much goes against the spirit of a sandbox game that's supposed to allow us to play how we want. Emergent gameplay goes both ways it needs to be there for everyone, not just a preferred or single gameplay style.

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No it would simply kill the player not having a defense against those things. Like I said in post above there will likely be ways to take down shields but simply waiting for timers to go down, or waiting for players to log and raid at 4am is lame gameplay that should be avoided at all costs. Players regardless of play style and group size need to have ways to protect themselves and their assets.

 

It being a sandbox means there will also be solo and small group players. Saying they HAVE to be a part of something big pretty much goes against the spirit of a sandbox game that's supposed to allow us to play how we want. Emergent gameplay goes both ways it needs to be there for everyone, not just a preferred or single gameplay style.

Sorry but from a balancing point of view your suggestions are just not possible. A big group will (and should) ALWAYS perform better than a lonesome wolf. You can't have a TU with a huge shield which protects everything you got underneath there, just because you want to play alone and the game has to support this. Won't happen.

But this talk is OT - if you have any contribution on shield timer ideas, feel free to participate

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Sorry but from a balancing point of view your suggestions are just not possible. A big group will (and should) ALWAYS perform better than a lonesome wolf. You can't have a TU with a huge shield which protects everything you got underneath there, just because you want to play alone and the game has to support this. Won't happen.

But this talk is OT - if you have any contribution on shield timer ideas, feel free to participate

I did post about shield timers, would have seen it had not been so zealous to attack the notion that the zerg mentality shouldn't be the end all be all in a sandbox game. and saying smaller groups should have the use of shield timers as well IS on topic, it just disagrees with your pov, there's a difference.

 

All I was saying is regardless of playstyle there needs to the ability to protect ones assets. You can go ahead and keep thinking that only large zerg Orgs or mega metropolis should be able to protect themselves if you want but seeing as the Dev is making a sandbox game that they said would allow players to play how they want, I think they might disagree with your notion.

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I did post about shield timers, would have seen it had not been so zealous to attack the notion that the zerg mentality shouldn't be the end all be all in a sandbox game. and saying smaller groups should have the use of shield timers as well IS on topic, it just disagrees with your pov, there's a difference.

 

All I was saying is regardless of playstyle there needs to the ability to protect ones assets. You can go ahead and keep thinking that only large zerg Orgs or mega metropolis should be able to protect themselves if you want but seeing as the Dev is making a sandbox game that they said would allow players to play how they want, I think they might disagree with your notion.

And where did I explicitly say that smaller orgs shouldn't be able to build a small shield for themselves? I just countered your point of treating every playstyle the same - which is not possible. You just can't have the same big badass things as big orgs, that's fact, otherwise it would be unbalanced.

 

Small orgs can have a smaller, weaker shield. Idc - why not? Downside: you can't fit everything underneath it or it is big but very weak. Bigger org = more resources, more power, bigger shield.

 

If just everyone can build and power a big, powerful shield you kill every pvp aspect there is

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If you provide a link, I would believe you ;)

 

If such a shield would exist, they completely kill piracy with that. No robbing, no stealing, no trespassing, no ransom, no loot.

 

In DU you can't be part of a 10man org and think you're safe (except the arkzone), you have to be part of a bigger nation, org, alliance in order to keep you safe in this hostile new world - that's the whole point of emergent gameplay

 

From the AMA threads.

 

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/10000-kickstarter-ama-event-first-part/

 

Will there be permission systems for crafting / construction? Is it possible for someone to destroy your work while you are offline?

 

Yes, there will be a quite powerful right management system (we call it the RDMS, check our devblog about it). Only authorized people will be able to edit your constructs, and in the Safe Zone, that means absolute protection. Outside the safe zone, people will still not be allowed to edit your construct (using the builders tools), but they will of course be allowed to break it (using weapons) or else there would be no PvP. You will have all sorts of other tools to protect yourself from that, like protection bubbles or shields.

 

 
 
 

Will there be a possibility to secure my constructs like bases or ships when i'm offline without the help from other players?

 

You won't have to worry if your construct is inside the Safe Zone. Outside the Safe Zone, you will be able to power some protection bubbles to create a first layer of protection (you can be notified offline if it gets attacked, and it will be hard to break so you have time to react). We are considering the possibility to have some basic defense scripts running on the server when you are offline (basic action/reaction scripts), but if we do that, this will not be implemented at release, probably in a future expansion.

 

 

 

Sorry nothing in there saying you HAVE to be a part of some big Org to have shields and able to have shield timers and protections.

 

If you have a link stating such do feel free to share. ;)

 

EDIT: Also I never said anything about "huge" shields or whatever. Made no mentions of shield size or power what so ever. All I said was protection should be available regardless of playstyle or group size.

 

  and yes you clearly said, "In DU you can't be part of a 10man org and think you're safe (except the arkzone), you have to be part of a bigger nation"

Edited by Pang_Dread

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I think lethys'S and my idea would honestly balance the shields out. Not only will it scale with the organizations dedication to the shields but very inactive players would suffer the CO sequence of their shields failing and being raised allowing for riddance of inactive Land claims

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From the AMA threads.

 

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/10000-kickstarter-ama-event-first-part/

 

 

 

 

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/10215-kickstarter-ama-event-third-last-part/

 

 

 

Sorry nothing in there saying you HAVE to be a part of some big Org to have shields and able to have shield timers and protections.

 

If you have a link stating such do feel free to share. ;)

 

EDIT: Also I never said anything about "huge" shields or whatever. Made no mentions of shield size or power what so ever. All I said was protection should be available regardless of playstyle or group size.

 

and yes you clearly said, "In DU you can't be part of a 10man org and think you're safe (except the arkzone), you have to be part of a bigger nation"

Well as far as we know now, those are exactly the bubbles and shields we talk about here. That's no new information.

 

you are not safe in such a bubble, because it can be destroyed. A large nation can provide other means of protection which then adds to your safety, so you are much more safe when part of that big org.

 

I think.we talk exactly about the same thing ;)

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I think lethys'S and my idea would honestly balance the shields out. Not only will it scale with the organizations dedication to the shields but very inactive players would suffer the CO sequence of their shields failing and being raised allowing for riddance of inactive Land claims

Yes power and size of shield and protection should be relative to the size and resources of group activating said shields. Don't disagree with that.

 

Only thing I disagreed with is the notion that you "have to be a part of a big nation, guild, Org, City" to be "safe". Emergent gameplay and all that.

 

But yes "safe" is very relative IMO. A large Org might provide more safety, but a smaller one might be more agile and able to react and adapt better due to not being unwieldy. Bottom line there will (needs to) be ways for groups and players of all size and playstyle to protect themselves and have defenses.

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To be "Safer" yes you will need to be part of a night org I agree small. Groups should also be able to do so but on a very small scAle. I believe lethys has the same principle in mind we just have different ideas on how to scale it

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Yes power and size of shield and protection should be relative to the size and resources of group activating said shields. Don't disagree with that.

 

Only thing I disagreed with is the notion that you "have to be a part of a big nation, guild, Org, City" to be "safe". Emergent gameplay and all that.

 

But yes "safe" is very relative IMO. A large Org might provide more safety, but a smaller one might be more agile and able to react and adapt better due to not being unwieldy. Bottom line there will (needs to) be ways for groups and players of all size and playstyle to protect themselves and have defenses.

Agility is useless in regards of shields because they are immobile (otherwise l.p. ;)). This thread is about the possible game mechanics how to balance those shields to make it fair for everyone. Just like smaller orgs should be protected enough so they prosper, they shouldn't be able to do the same things as big orgs. So how to balance those things will be crucial

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Pretty sure they also mentioned some sort of shields or protection for our personal constructs, houses and such. Wouldn't really be fair if only way to protect your stuff is to be a part of a large city or Org or just stay back in the Ark safe zone.

Think about the problem with that. If everyone has a personalised snowflake timer, why bother getting together under one protection bubble? :P And ships having such a 48 hour timer, is what is going to kill cities and stations in one stroke. Why bother docking up, when you can be safe having your ship logged out in the middle of space?

 

And even then, 48 hours timers defuse the point of "a strong marketplace can fund a strong shield". Why? Everyone is a special snowflake, everyone gets a 48 hour timer shield. 

 

Thing is, if you gonna build your house in the borders of a hostile faction, you should be punished for it with an orbital bombardment.

 

JC said the game is about risk and reward and having 48 hour timers as a reward for a fleet trying to invade a systems, by slowlly warping the distance between systems (a process that will take a week at best), is like, telling such people "oh, you want to PvP and do awesome tactics? LEL Here, have 48 hour timers and enjoy being blobbed to death when their reinforcements arrive and pwn you". Take down their stargate to cut access to the system? 48 hours timer on the game. Try to strike their orbital installatiosn? 48 hours timer. How long you fuel supply will last you in a hostile system? Maybe 10 hours. See, that's why 48 hours timers don't work as well. 

 

Timers have no place in a game like DU, they work in games like EVE, which are heavily instanced (each system being its own thing) with gates that are free to pass through and not player-owned and able to deny access to certain people. 

 

And I don't know if you missed the tag-line for the game, but it's "rebuilding civilisation together". If you want to go solo, you can, dont' expect to be granted the same level of power as a 10000 member organisation. That's absrud. As JC said, the game is about risk and reward. You want to go solo? Fine, that's your risk. 

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An addition to this, it should depend on how much energy you have but also what type of weapons are being used against it and at what quantity. So while one turret could attack it for days on end, an armada could wipe it out in hours(for a small shield this is)

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Think about the problem with that. If everyone has a personalised snowflake timer, why bother getting together under one protection bubble? :P And ships having such a 48 hour timer, is what is going to kill cities and stations in one stroke. Why bother docking up, when you can be safe having your ship logged out in the middle of space?

 

And even then, 48 hours timers defuse the point of "a strong marketplace can fund a strong shield". Why? Everyone is a special snowflake, everyone gets a 48 hour timer shield. 

 

Thing is, if you gonna build your house in the borders of a hostile faction, you should be punished for it with an orbital bombardment.

 

JC said the game is about risk and reward and having 48 hour timers as a reward for a fleet trying to invade a systems, by slowlly warping the distance between systems (a process that will take a week at best), is like, telling such people "oh, you want to PvP and do awesome tactics? LEL Here, have 48 hour timers and enjoy being blobbed to death when their reinforcements arrive and pwn you". Take down their stargate to cut access to the system? 48 hours timer on the game. Try to strike their orbital installatiosn? 48 hours timer. How long you fuel supply will last you in a hostile system? Maybe 10 hours. See, that's why 48 hours timers don't work as well. 

 

Timers have no place in a game like DU, they work in games like EVE, which are heavily instanced (each system being its own thing) with gates that are free to pass through and not player-owned and able to deny access to certain people. 

 

And I don't know if you missed the tag-line for the game, but it's "rebuilding civilisation together". If you want to go solo, you can, dont' expect to be granted the same level of power as a 10000 member organisation. That's absrud. As JC said, the game is about risk and reward. You want to go solo? Fine, that's your risk. 

Never said it should be all the same, can see that if you followed the convo between me and Lethys. In fact I specifically agreed that the level of protection should be relative to the group size and power you can afford.

 

BTW, JC is the one that mentioned 48h timers. Not sure if that's based in how he wants it or was just using an example but yes can very much expect shields and protections to be on timers and such. Otherwise the whole other problem of the "4am raids" exist which is beyond lame to lose assets with no defense or recourse.  

 

So whether its timers or Windows of opportunity or  similar mechanics yes they need to exist for balance and fairness.   

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