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Kurock

RDMS: Invisible tags

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Rights and Duties Management System (RDMS) will be one of the very powerful customization systems in DU. Read the DevBlog here if you have not already. Effectively tags can be used to give access to assets etc etc. I assume that in the current RDMS system, a player will know what tags he/she has.  Effectively these are like keys to a spaceship or passcard for a door.

 

The suggestion of this topic is that a tag can be placed on a person without their knowledge. These invisible tags would not be able have duties connected to them because this could lead to a player losing money without knowing about it.  

 

The uses for this are also quite broad.  For example: it could be used to not only tag intruders but to keep track of the intruder long after they have left.  This has an additional effect that invaders would need a hacker to look at their hidden tags and clean out any unwanted ones. 

 

What would you use invisible tags for?

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Sneaky! Another way to add some neat depth to the game, and more job fields and skills. You could use it to track people to certain places certainly; my immediate thought is Obi Wan tagging the Slave I with that little device, and the noise it makes. You could use it to tell if an unwanted visitor has returned, as the invisible tag you placed on them could trigger some warning sensors and alert you. Neat idea Kurock! Like I said, it could add more depth and the need for skills in another area.

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"

A good day to you, Kurock.  

 

Banning players is something best done through the alliance or organisation interface with access powers available to the administrators. 

 

The RDMS tag will have many uses, but I am of the opinion that it is best to limit those uses to what the name implies: "Rights and Duties Management". 

 

Should a player become a thorn in the flesh, any administrator with the required RDMS should be able to ban the player. Players in games like this have unique IDs. Their identification isn't placed solely on their names--that would be primitive and disastrous. Banning a player, means painting that ID red. 

 

Surely, the RDMS tag can be put to better uses some of which I hope you will provide in due time. Keep the ideas coming.

 

"

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Lets remove it from the RDMS for a moment.  Think of a generic tagging system that a player can place a tag on another player and that tag can be hidden or visible to that player.  Lets also ignore the fun that hackers can have finding and removing such tags. What could we use a hidden tag for?

 

Keeping state in an in-game game: For example a maze puzzle where you go about finding locations. each location you visit gives you access via a hidden key to another location you could not access before.
Assassins trap: Have a mole mark a target with a special tag.  This tag could trigger a LUA script that acts as a trap.  A personalized death machine

Bounty beacon: Could be used as a way of tracking a bounty's target via LUA scripts.

 

These are just a few of the uses for an invisible tag.  I am sure others can think of more.

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Lets remove it from the RDMS for a moment.  Think of a generic tagging system that a player can place a tag on another player and that tag can be hidden or visible to that player.  Lets also ignore the fun that hackers can have finding and removing such tags. What could we use a hidden tag for?

 

Keeping state in an in-game game: For example a maze puzzle where you go about finding locations. each location you visit gives you access via a hidden key to another location you could not access before.

Assassins trap: Have a mole mark a target with a special tag.  This tag could trigger a LUA script that acts as a trap.  A personalized death machine

Bounty beacon: Could be used as a way of tracking a bounty's target via LUA scripts.

 

These are just a few of the uses for an invisible tag.  I am sure others can think of more.

"

Splendid. The developers hope to make a bounty system if we reach the 725,000 Euro stretch goal. But to put it on the player without the concerned person knowing...I both like and dislike the idea. I like it because it would make it easier for mercenaries and neutral groups to take out unsuspecting targets, and I dislike for the same reason. It someone places a bounty on you, you should know at least, no? 

 

Except of course you want to start every Dual Universe gaming session with: 

 

"Hey, mate. Check display tag. Is there a bounty on my head?"

"

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Pointless. Chances are the Devs will follow the "Standings" system from EVE.

Blue (outstanding reputiation with your org / alliance) + Not member of the Alliance = certain access to certain containers, functions, powers, within a safe-zone.

Red (hostile, infamous, pirate, etc) with your org = Restrictions from entering the safezone and a an alert on checking if the person has a bounty on their head.

Tagging a person with the infamous Red marker is the Tag you speak of and if it's a organisation-wide marker, everyone in the org will see the red marker on said person. 

But here's the thing, if you tag a person Red, they will see you tagged Red as well. So yeah, there's no such thing as "invisible" marks and if there is one, there should be an in-game method of removing it off of you. 

Also, the Lua Scripts can have a detectStanding() function to detect a player's standigng before allowing access and / or traping a person within a make-shift cage if they are snooping around where they shouldn't.

Plus, there are in-between standings on Red and Blue and an org's leader can set "notes" on a person's profile for certain people in the org to see. That's "invisible" tags for you.

For example, I mark you with White Neutral, then add an organisation-wide note, accessible by my "law enforcement" players. When they click on your ID card, they can see "Organisation Notes", describing what you are infamous, for example, If you were seen advertising scams, you would be noted from my org as "possible scammer, remove from the premises" and so on. A PK player, will be marked Red, with Notes regarding their choice of weaponry, etcetera.

Your "keeping track of an in-game game", can be done with these Notes as well, like assigning "scores" and all that old-school, DKP-era stuff.

That's called Emergent Gameplay, what you refer to is called a mini-game. If you can see the difference, you can understand why the game attracts many EVE players. The standings system is complex and difficult and it creates cultures of Code of Conduct. 

In EVE, you have NBSI - Not Blue Shoot it -  who are the people who shoot first, ask questions never, on anyone not in good terms with them.

On the other end, there are NRDS - Not Red Don't Shoot - the good guys who are peaceful unless you are a known A-hole who messes with their org / alliance.

There are variations of these, but NRDS and NBSI are the most common.

You can't have these things with "Assasin's Tag".


 

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I personally think that following someone via a tag they don't even know they have is unfair to say the least. It should take real skill to avoid being detected, not just the push of a button and then: "Oh, so THAT'S where his secret Top Security base is: 70,000 lightyears due East!"

 

You can see the problem right?

 

I just see it being abused too easily and detracting from gameplay as opposed to adding to it.

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I personally think that following someone via a tag they don't even know they have is unfair to say the least. It should take real skill to avoid being detected, not just the push of a button and then: "Oh, so THAT'S where his secret Top Security base is: 70,000 lightyears due East!"

 

You can see the problem right?

 

I just see it being abused too easily and detracting from gameplay as opposed to adding to it.

As I mentioned above, such "invisible tags" kill emergent gameplay and your example is another good demonstration as of why :P

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These sorts of tags were how i thought it would be all along, giving us players the chance to create emergent game play. the thing taking it directly from eve you said. that kills the dream of players crafting the world.

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These sorts of tags were how i thought it would be all along, giving us players the chance to create emergent game play. the thing taking it directly from eve you said. that kills the dream of players crafting the world.

How is not "crafting the world" when you can mark a certain organisation as "Infamous" / Red on your guys? What? Would you prefer "Horde Vs Alliance" ?

 

If twerk says so it must be true. Why not create EVE 2.0 and be done with it.

Irony is heavy on you, since I was once as ignorant as you, then I actually played EVE and seen the light. 

 

And no, you won't be given the option to mark and track a person indefinitely, that would make secret bunkers obsolete. But hey, just because I use reason and logic, doesn't mean you should too. 

 

So, you better learn how to use Directional Scans and Scanning Probes to locate a person in a backwater system. Nobody will provide you with such powerful tools as you may ask. You are not allowed to know where I - OR ANYONE - stashes their stuff or hang their pirate hat.

 

Also, Kurock dear, Lua scripts are meant for in-game 3D mesh devices, they are not magic to be used to keep track of BOO for the CSYN, mkay? Mkay!

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For example: it could be used to not only tag intruders but to keep track of the intruder long after they have left.

 

 

 

 

Assassins trap: Have a mole mark a target with a special tag.  This tag could trigger a LUA script that acts as a trap.  A personalized death machine

Bounty beacon: Could be used as a way of tracking a bounty's target via LUA scripts.

 

 

I generally like the idea BUT:

 

- there have to be means to detect / counter those marks

- furthermore: unknown, instakill assassin trap would just be abused

- secret bases have one advantage: they're secret.

- if implemented poorly, this will only end in people constantly checking their flags. Annoying and unnecessary

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I don't imagine the invisible tags would necessarily be able to track someone anywhere, that would be pretty cheap. Rather, it would be used like any other tag, except they wouldn't know they have it. I mean, if I tag someone in my org, they know they have the tag, but can I track them anywhere they go? No. But, that tag does trigger certain things if I have set up a system that reacts to their tag, like doors or ships. Same goes for the invisible tags, I can't track the owner but I can make it so that they are immediately identifiable.

 

I would use invisible tags to track your online activities and shopping habits then sell it to advertisers without your consent or knowledge

Good thing I'll have AdBlock!

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I would use invisible tags to track your online activities and shopping habits then sell it to advertisers without your consent or knowledge

Brilliant. Have a cookie.

 

 

This has somehow become a bit far removed from my original intention. Perhaps I didn't explain it properly to begin with. But then again I could not have foreseen the overwhelming negativity, however justified.

 

Tagging is not necessarily connected to inter-player dispositions (blue, orange, red etc.). It could be. But that is a property that could be added to a tag. It can just as easily be left off. By adding a few sentences to a tag, this could be used to recreate that EVE subsystem but it can do so much more.

 

The distance at which the tags can be "seen" and/or activated should be a really close range. We are talking tens of meters. Not thousands. Though I can see the use of extending this, with the correct skills, to hundreds of meters. Again, not thousands. Also I see checking for the existence of a tag much like scanning for resources. In a cone or sphere, there may be one, some or many in the area but a detection will only return a yes or no. It was never meant for pinpointing over huge distances.. also that would not be viable with the server architecture as it is.

 

The biggest driver here is that tags can be seen only by those that have rights to see them. Which is why RDMS works for this idea. And hackers with sufficient skill couldcan see them and potentially remove hidden tags. Hidden tags would not be able to have duties on them since that is effectively a contract entered into willingly.

 

I will concede that completely hidden tags is a bad idea simply because a player does not know what is going on and this goes against the idea of fairness of the game. A hidden tag counter might solve this: A readout of the total number of tags, hidden or not, on a character. So a player will know there is a tag, but not what type of tag it is or whom it belongs to. This can be used as a prompt to go visit the local hacker cleaner.

 

Will NQ implement this system? Unlikely. Is it fun to think about? Definitely. If this in some way inspires a NQ dev, then this thread has done its job.

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Brilliant. Have a cookie.

 

 

This has somehow become a bit far removed from my original intention. Perhaps I didn't explain it properly to begin with. But then again I could not have foreseen the overwhelming negativity, however justified.

 

Tagging is not necessarily connected to inter-player dispositions (blue, orange, red etc.). It could be. But that is a property that could be added to a tag. It can just as easily be left off. By adding a few sentences to a tag, this could be used to recreate that EVE subsystem but it can do so much more.

 

The distance at which the tags can be "seen" and/or activated should be a really close range. We are talking tens of meters. Not thousands. Though I can see the use of extending this, with the correct skills, to hundreds of meters. Again, not thousands. Also I see checking for the existence of a tag much like scanning for resources. In a cone or sphere, there may be one, some or many in the area but a detection will only return a yes or no. It was never meant for pinpointing over huge distances.. also that would not be viable with the server architecture as it is.

 

The biggest driver here is that tags can be seen only by those that have rights to see them. Which is why RDMS works for this idea. And hackers with sufficient skill couldcan see them and potentially remove hidden tags. Hidden tags would not be able to have duties on them since that is effectively a contract entered into willingly.

 

I will concede that completely hidden tags is a bad idea simply because a player does not know what is going on and this goes against the idea of fairness of the game. A hidden tag counter might solve this: A readout of the total number of tags, hidden or not, on a character. So a player will know there is a tag, but not what type of tag it is or whom it belongs to. This can be used as a prompt to go visit the local hacker cleaner.

 

Will NQ implement this system? Unlikely. Is it fun to think about? Definitely. If this in some way inspires a NQ dev, then this thread has done its job.

Pointing out the issues in your arguement is not "deviation from the subject". It's called a "discussion".

 

Considering the tags system as a gameplay feature, yes, it can make mass scale interactions simpler by making a group outlaw red for your org to know "these guys are hostile to us". But making said tags none visible to the other party is quite the problem innately, let alone making said tag transmitting the exact location of a person and implementing thingsl ike insta-kill traps. Also, bounty hunting needs to be challenging, not a "kill X person" quest, complete with tracking on the star-map. Just saying, there's a reason Direction Scan is in the game, and it's not just for mining.

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Pointing out the issues in your arguement is not "deviation from the subject". It's called a "discussion".

This is rich coming from the biggest troll in DU.

 

Considering the tags system as a gameplay feature, yes, it can make mass scale interactions simpler by making a group outlaw red for your org to know "these guys are hostile to us". But making said tags none visible to the other party is quite the problem innately, let alone making said tag transmitting the exact location of a person and implementing thingsl ike insta-kill traps. Also, bounty hunting needs to be challenging, not a "kill X person" quest, complete with tracking on the star-map. Just saying, there's a reason Direction Scan is in the game, and it's not just for mining

And ignoring my entire previous post is a great way to have a 'discussion'. Carry on. I am sure it is entertaining someone.

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Brilliant. Have a cookie.

 

 

This has somehow become a bit far removed from my original intention. Perhaps I didn't explain it properly to begin with. But then again I could not have foreseen the overwhelming negativity, however justified.

 

Tagging is not necessarily connected to inter-player dispositions (blue, orange, red etc.). It could be. But that is a property that could be added to a tag. It can just as easily be left off. By adding a few sentences to a tag, this could be used to recreate that EVE subsystem but it can do so much more.

 

The distance at which the tags can be "seen" and/or activated should be a really close range. We are talking tens of meters. Not thousands. Though I can see the use of extending this, with the correct skills, to hundreds of meters. Again, not thousands. Also I see checking for the existence of a tag much like scanning for resources. In a cone or sphere, there may be one, some or many in the area but a detection will only return a yes or no. It was never meant for pinpointing over huge distances.. also that would not be viable with the server architecture as it is.

 

The biggest driver here is that tags can be seen only by those that have rights to see them. Which is why RDMS works for this idea. And hackers with sufficient skill couldcan see them and potentially remove hidden tags. Hidden tags would not be able to have duties on them since that is effectively a contract entered into willingly.

 

I will concede that completely hidden tags is a bad idea simply because a player does not know what is going on and this goes against the idea of fairness of the game. A hidden tag counter might solve this: A readout of the total number of tags, hidden or not, on a character. So a player will know there is a tag, but not what type of tag it is or whom it belongs to. This can be used as a prompt to go visit the local hacker cleaner.

 

Will NQ implement this system? Unlikely. Is it fun to think about? Definitely. If this in some way inspires a NQ dev, then this thread has done its job.

Boils down to:

Everyone constantly checks their flags, gets them removed, done. Pretty boring?

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Boils down to:

Everyone constantly checks their flags, gets them removed, done. Pretty boring?

Exactly. Which is why they are hidden in the first place.

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Checking tags is something you could totally forget to do after a while. 99 times out of 100, there's never going to be anything. Then in that one case, it's probably 1 in 10 people actually have an invisible tag. The first thing you do when you log in is not going to be to check your tags, it's something easily missable and forgettable, something not everyoene will even know about. And it's not like it's huge game changer if you do have one on you, so in the rare case where you are important enough to be tagged with an invisible tag, do you even care?

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Brilliant. Have a cookie.

This has somehow become a bit far removed from my original intention. Perhaps I didn't explain it properly to begin with. But then again I could not have foreseen the overwhelming negativity, however justified.

 

The distance at which the tags can be "seen" and/or activated should be a really close range. We are talking tens of meters. Not thousands. Though I can see the use of extending this, with the correct skills, to hundreds of meters. Again, not thousands. Also I see checking for the existence of a tag much like scanning for resources. In a cone or sphere, there may be one, some or many in the area but a detection will only return a yes or no. It was never meant for pinpointing over huge distances.. also that would not be viable with the server architecture as it is.[/quote.]

 

Good to know I misunderstand the concept. :)

 

I will concede that completely hidden tags is a bad idea simply because a player does not know what is going on and this goes against the idea of fairness of the game. A hidden tag counter might solve this: A readout of the total number of tags, hidden or not, on a character. So a player will know there is a tag, but not what type of tag it is or whom it belongs to. This can be used as a prompt to go visit the local hacker cleaner.

 

 

That wouldn't be so bad, especially if there was a way to create some kind of automatic tag scanner that you could build into a ship / building. The scanner could alert you that an invisible tag is present, and maybe even what it does.

 

Not sure if that is even a possibility, but if they can make invisible tags it should be.

 

I guess I have moved from totally against it to on the fence about this one.

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This is rich coming from the biggest troll in DU.

 

And ignoring my entire previous post is a great way to have a 'discussion'. Carry on. I am sure it is entertaining someone.

You mean the forums? Cause DU is not even out yet. You seem to take things way to seriously.

 

And I was concurring with your post mate, I was not ignoring it. You know, it's how discussions are being carried out.

 

Boils down to:

Everyone constantly checks their flags, gets them removed, done. Pretty boring?

 

Exactly. Which is why they are hidden in the first place.

Which is why you won't get such an invisible tracker. You want to track someone? Get good at scanning. This is not WoW to get Hunter's Mark.  Your suggestion violates the principle of the game itself on emergent gameplay. You want bounty hunting to be a "click to see tracked targets" gameplay, no dear, it won't be that easy to track people down. You wil lhave to earn such a thing as being called a good bounty hunter, as you will have to earn being called a good builder. Nobody will give you instant-kill abilities. You will have to earn being called an excellent tactician and ambusher, laying mines in your bunkers and / or forest / underground caves you made your home into.

 

Your suggestion violates emergent gameplay as a whole and as Lethys pointed out as well, it's also a constant pain to have to check for if someone is tracking you 3000000000000000 light years away.

 

What I'm saying is, you won't be granted the ability to know when we'll be coming for CSYN's towns, ships, treasures, etcetera. Neither will we know if you are coming. So, you better earn the advantage of tactical intelligence by actually scouting enemy territories, not by tagging people eternally with magic.

 

 

I drop the mic, you may pick it up, it won't change the fact you are utterly wrong.

 

Peeace. 

 

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Checking tags is something you could totally forget to do after a while. 99 times out of 100, there's never going to be anything. Then in that one case, it's probably 1 in 10 people actually have an invisible tag. The first thing you do when you log in is not going to be to check your tags, it's something easily missable and forgettable, something not everyoene will even know about. And it's not like it's huge game changer if you do have one on you, so in the rare case where you are important enough to be tagged with an invisible tag, do you even care?

Yes. It's like going online on TS FIRST and ask if everything is clear before you log into eve.

 

If you can't do shit about that tag, it's just op. In a game there always has to be an action and a reaction. Cause otherwise I just tag anyone because why not? May be handy later? Can't remove it anyway and even if they know it they will eventually forget it again. I really see no point at all in such a feature.

 

Besides: manually hunting down your prey by dscan is the most hilarious profession in eve. Very satisfying

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Yes. It's like going online on TS FIRST and ask if everything is clear before you log into eve.

 

If you can't do shit about that tag, it's just op. In a game there always has to be an action and a reaction. Cause otherwise I just tag anyone because why not? May be handy later? Can't remove it anyway and even if they know it they will eventually forget it again. I really see no point at all in such a feature.

 

Besides: manually hunting down your prey by dscan is the most hilarious profession in eve. Very satisfying

Step 1) : Get a Heavy Assault Cruiser

 

Step 2) : Fit it to the brim with fire fate modules and Speed

 

Step 3) : Go to an asteroid belt and lay low.

 

Step 4) : Scan the nearest asteroid belt.

 

Step 5) : Wait for miner.

 

Step 6) : Wait for miner to be ganked by D-scanning the nearest gate.

 

Step 7) : Srurprise the ganker with a load of Heavy Assault Missiles, courtesy of the Caldari Navy.

 

Win.

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