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Skill Training


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I really don't understand why every character must be equal to eachother. 

If you don't have the time to play that much (I'll probably be one of those), then sure, your character won't have all the skills on as high a lvl as those who play 24/7.

 

But having a passive skill lvling system where everyone will end up being max lvld at the same time just ruins the incentive to actually spend that extra hour mining just because you want to be a bit beter then the rest.

 

As I've understood it, not having the skills at lvl 1 doesn't automaticly translate to you not knowing how to do it, (for example mining), but rather that you won't be as good as those who have a higher lvl of it. 

 

If you want to have all characters on equal footing, go play CS:go, Starcraft or something like that.

 

Raising a character from a newb to an expert is half the fun, even if I won't mine as quickly as the rest. That just makes it more a of a challenge and results in that I have to focus more on my personal skills rather then the ingame ones (even if they are connected). 

Not really, no. Attributes dictate how fast you can train and how effective skilsl are. If you got 0 perception, you won't be getting any benefit from Heavy Guns Master level,because your perceptino is low.

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Hmm... nothing to do with skills, but imagine if 4 years into this when there are wars raging all around, a berserker robot fleet shows up at our doorstep and we have to cooperate or face extinction.  Someone discovers an artifact and it's actually a signal beacon that wakes up the berserkers... I don't know why that thought occurred to me.

 

what?

 

well I personally would love to see the extinction though....

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Not really, no. Attributes dictate how fast you can train and how effective skilsl are. If you got 0 perception, you won't be getting any benefit from Heavy Guns Master level,because your perceptino is low.

Will there be levels then?  Will you be able increase attributes through experience?  Will you be able to enhance at attribute with an implant or a cybernetic replacement?  I mean say you get a cyborg arm that gives you +2 ST and a -1 CH.

 

Problem with attributes like IQ and CH is that even though your character may not be smart or a good leader, the player could be and that's what matters.

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what?

 

well I personally would love to see the extinction though....

Endgame before the launch of DU 2.0: unstoppable berserkers show up and kick all of our asses, we pile back into the arkship, freeze up and get the hell out of Dodge and fly into a wormhole and an entirely new universe populated with alien races, weather, survival, all the stuff people were looking for that couldn't logically be added mid-game.

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I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a skill web.  I like the idea of a classless character system.  I also don't want the skill development to be grinding, though if you shoot down a battleship with your frigate, maybe your character deserves something for that feat, I dunno.  I know you shouldn't be able to kill people for XP like in a single player or instanced RPG.  Though I think there should be drops and salvage and such.

 

Hmm... nothing to do with skills, but imagine if 4 years into this when there are wars raging all around, a berserker robot fleet shows up at our doorstep and we have to cooperate or face extinction.  Someone discovers an artifact and it's actually a signal beacon that wakes up the berserkers... I don't know why that thought occurred to me.

Thing is, the skill system in question, gives you PASSIVE boosts, not access to skills. Now think of this scenario.

 

 

You are a gunnery sergeant on a cruiser. You need Perception and Intelligence as attributes to get access to te targeting skills you need, aand it makes sense, it's a spaceship, with space guns that shoot projectiles and relativity even comes into play in such battles, so you need to be an exceptional Joe to pull it off. You also invested in some weapons handling for a pistol and some points in light armor , because why not.

 

 

Now, I am the kind of guy nobody likes. I have invested in Power Armor training, meaning I got Endurance for my sprinting speed and Strength. I have invested in a Heavy Weapons specialisation and I got myself a minigun, cause life is too short to reload every 10 seconds. I also got some skill investment into hacking, but I got not high Intelligence or Memory to actually be efficient with it.

 

 

Now, if your character had invested in Power Armor, you would be getting less efficient than me who has Attributes allocated into my playstyle depsite if we had the same skill training level. Same would go with me, if I had skill invetsment into Gunnery skills, I would be less efficient than you, who had attributes into it.

 

 

Also, I can have specialisation into Minigun, Sniper, Assault Rifle, Shotgun, Rocket Launcher, but I can carry only two of them on my person (not to mention ammo for them, rockets are huge).

 

 

It's like saying the Swiss Army Knife is the best tool invented by mankind, despite the fact nobody ever used the cork opener on it.. Same goes for the Skill Training in question, sure, you can have builder skills, but if you are not in DUAL for the building, you won't actually ever gonna use that. 

 

 

And again, it's a passive skills system. You won't be weaving fire and dark magic spells or w/e is hip these days. I don't need to point out, being an exper mason won't help you much when it comes to flying, right? :P

 

Or being an expert smelter helping you much when sniping.

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Will there be levels then?  Will you be able increase attributes through experience?  Will you be able to enhance at attribute with an implant or a cybernetic replacement?  I mean say you get a cyborg arm that gives you +2 ST and a -1 CH.

 

Problem with attributes like IQ and CH is that even though your character may not be smart or a good leader, the player could be and that's what matters.

You allocate attributes at the start, depending on what you want to invest in skills, then, if you want MORE on a stat, you get implants (which drop on death, so... yeah, they are costly).

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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1949863330/dual-universe-civilization-building-sci-fi-mmorpg/posts/1701437

"The Nanoformer upgrades are about boosting things like your capacity to mine, the energy regeneration rate, the range of your integrated scanner, and all sorts of basic functions provided via the Nanoformer. In both cases (Outfit and Nanoformer) we will balance things so that you cannot max everything at the same time. There will always be tradeoffs."

 

Even if we could max every skill (which is unlikely), we won't be on equal footing with every character because people will upgrade their Outfits, Nanoformers and Implants differently, based on their individual interests.

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You allocate attributes at the start, depending on what you want to invest in skills, then, if you want MORE on a stat, you get implants (which drop on death, so... yeah, they are costly).

And that gives a real incentive to not die.  But do the implants have to be personalized?  Can I kill you and grab your implants or do they only work on you and are only valuable as salvage?  Could I sell them back to you after resurrection?  Lol... that could make from some interesting conversations.

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I don't think we're going to have a Charisma stat.

I suppose we could have a "Trade" stat for negotiating sales with NPCs.

Leadership will be completely dependent upon player skills.

 

Player attributes shouldn't help much with actions that require character attributes and character skills to unlock or activate.

A player might have the IQ to figure out where an alien artifact is located, but if the character doesn't have the IQ to activate it, the player will still have to wait to find a character who can activate the artifact.

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And that gives a real incentive to not die.  But do the implants have to be personalized?  Can I kill you and grab your implants or do they only work on you and are only valuable as salvage?  Could I sell them back to you after resurrection?  Lol... that could make from some interesting conversations.

You sure can. Which is why you don't yell "HEY, LOOK AT ALL THESE FANCY IMPLANTS I HAVE!" You might be thinking "man, I'm so cyberpunk", what a guy like me sees though, is a pinyata.

 

Moral of the story, don't advertise how much mney people will make by killing you.

 

And sure, implants do make a difference in combat, but in turn are expensive due to all the skills involved with making them, then material costs, then shipping costs, then market taxes, yadda yadda and on top of all that, they can drop or be destroyed when you die. It's a balanced system.

 

 

And boy, we didn't even go into drugs and how much of an advantage and disadvantage they can be.

 

 

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Is there a quote that says we drop Implants when we die. That seems unlikely.

It has been said that we drop some of our inventory. I doubt that includes all of our Implants.

Not the cerebral implants. The Implants that amplify attributes, like in EVE. Those are "trinket" class items in other genres.

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You sure can. Which is why you don't yell "HEY, LOOK AT ALL THESE FANCY IMPLANTS I HAVE!" You might be thinking "man, I'm so cyberpunk", what a guy like me sees though, is a pinyata.

 

Moral of the story, don't advertise how much mney people will make by killing you.

 

And sure, implants do make a difference in combat, but in turn are expensive due to all the skills involved with making them, then material costs, then shipping costs, then market taxes, yadda yadda and on top of all that, they can drop or be destroyed when you die. It's a balanced system.

 

 

And boy, we didn't even go into drugs and how much of an advantage and disadvantage they can be.

 

 

I'm playing Witcher 3 and my toxicity is always in the 70s.

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That's not a quote.

Well, you actually needed a quote on if the Combat will be active lock-on when I did say it would be, and guess what, combat is active lock-on. You should take a hint from people who can make educated guesses.

 

Nothing in DUAL is permanent. Only your skills and money are the only SAFE thing on your person. Anything else, is an asset that can be lost at any given point if you are not careful :)

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I don't like the idea of training that is so passive that you don't even have to be online to train.  Uploading a skill directly to your brain is like reading and watching videos about blacksmithing and then claiming to be a master when you've never lifted a hammer.  You don't know the feel the hammer in your hand, the sound of properly tempered metal, the smell of forge, the heat on your face... there's a lot more to a skill than book knowledge.  But that's just me.  Maybe you want training to be fully automated, just plug your brain in to the ark and magic happens Demolition Man style.  That would certainly be easier to code, but it would shut the door on folks who want there to be a value in experience and effort.

 

So... when you're training, do you set up a queue for training?  Get all the level 1 and level 2 skills you want queued up, log off for a week and come back and you're as skilled as people who played 80 hours.  I just don't care for that.

 

As someone who doesn't have a ton of time to play games, a skill training system that is mainly passive is ideal for people who work full-time. People who are playing actively will have plenty of advantages in the realm of resource collecting, building, and being able to protect their stuff by spending more hours not AFK.

 

Plus designing skill level-up systems that are tied to use are more technically demanding. Each skill area would need a list of activities that trigger xp gains. Players would have to spend time grinding an activity to get the skill high enough to do anything consequential, which will affect player behavior.

Lets say for example I want to train weapons skills so that I can participate in Law Enforcement. Will I have to risk my stuff to do PVP just to get my skill higher? Would I need to spend some time as a deepspace pirate just so I have stuff to attack? Would there need to be fight clubs built just for players to grind their skills? That all seems a bit odd to me.

 

And for building. Would I need to make a bunch of inconsequential structures out of low-tier material so I can actually build the base that I want to get my level high enough?

 

A use-to-improve system will force players to spend a bunch of time doing inconsequential things just so they can eventually do the thing they want to do. In Skyrim for example, the best way to improve smithing isn't to continue making better and better equipment, you just grind out iron daggers until your skill is high enough to take the good perks. They are designed to keep it immersive, but in practice they break immersion.

 

A system like the one that is currently proposed (more like Eve) will encourage players spending their time actually playing the game, instead of players grinding so they can eventually play it the way they want to. It will be enough to grind for materials

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Well, you actually needed a quote on if the Combat will be active lock-on when I did say it would be, and guess what, combat is active lock-on. You should take a hint from people who can make educated guesses.

Nothing in DUAL is permanent. Only your skills and money are the only SAFE thing on your person. Anything else, is an asset that can be lost at any given point if you are not careful :)

Nope.

I asked you for a dev quote that stated "tab-target".

I stated that the devs never say "tab-target". The devs always say "lock and fire".

I stated that "lock and fire" does not necessarily mean we will cycle targets using the tab key.

You then argued that the original meaning of tab-target was not tab-cycling - so "tab-target" is the same thing as "lock and fire".

Then when the devs again described the mechanics of "lock and fire", you tried to claim victory that it's what you always said. Even though the devs still have never said "tab-target" and have indicated that default targeting will not be cycling through targets using the tab key - as I stated. Although, the devs have said there will be some variety of methods for achieving a lock, they still have not mentioned cycling through targets using the tab key. Nor have they yet mentioned "tab-targeting".

 

Which is why I want you to provide a quote regarding the loss of implants as part of the death penalty, so we can all examine what the devs have stated, rather than relying solely on your interpretation.

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Some of it comes down to the old active and passive argument if you are a passive player and only log in now and again sure you are paying for the servers but not to the emergent gameplay.

 

I still think active use of a skill should have some influence however small on the time it takes to train that skill (while the timer is active)

 

It makes sense as you are downloading the info from the arknet and learning by doing. Otherwise everyone is the equivalent of a computer downloading cookbooks

 

Even if the active play only speeds up the tick speed a small percentage.

 

Just make it so any other skill you are not downloading is not trained 110% of 0 is still 0

 

The key is to have the active reward small enough so it's hardly worth grinding for but still has an effect over time as you play and use that skill.

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I'm not exactly sure how what you're asking for is different than the current design.

We will be able to advance skills while offline but, AFAIK, we still have to acquire the basic skills in order to start that process.

We will most likely be actively using the skills when we log in.

Also, some player skill will also be a factor - the example provided by the devs is that players will have to know where to apply the scans for specific resources.

It's not enough for a character to have the skills to scan for rare resources.

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....

 

A system like the one that is currently proposed (more like Eve) will encourage players spending their time actually playing the game, instead of players grinding so they can eventually play it the way they want to. It will be enough to grind for materials

This part says it all, IMO.

 

The Active part of the system is actually playing the game. Yeah the skills technically get downloaded to our brains thematically, but its us the players who use those skills in actively playing the game.

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Nope.

I asked you for a dev quote that stated "tab-target".

I stated that the devs never say "tab-target". The devs always say "lock and fire".

I stated that "lock and fire" does not necessarily mean we will cycle targets using the tab key.

You then argued that the original meaning of tab-target was not tab-cycling - so "tab-target" is the same thing as "lock and fire".

Then when the devs again described the mechanics of "lock and fire", you tried to claim victory that it's what you always said. Even though the devs still have never said "tab-target" and have indicated that default targeting will not be cycling through targets using the tab key - as I stated. Although, the devs have said there will be some variety of methods for achieving a lock, they still have not mentioned cycling through targets using the tab key. Nor have they yet mentioned "tab-targeting".

 

Which is why I want you to provide a quote regarding the loss of implants as part of the death penalty, so we can all examine what the devs have stated, rather than relying solely on your interpretation.

You are definitely a lawyer, or a very good backpedalist. Pick your poison I guess :V

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  • 4 months later...

Forgive me if something like this has been suggested already, I only read about 2 1/2 pages worth of responses but I'd like to says a few things.

 

1 - Since we are training skills via the Arkship through a brain implant and we're advanced enough technologically, couldn't it be we're learning the skills like "the matrix" where its not just reading but there's some mental holographic or dreaming going on in your head where you "think" you're holding an object or performing an action, etc. and therefore it feels lifelike so when you perform said skill in real life it feels like you've done it before.

 

2 - In order for characters to feel different, specialized or unique, I'm hoping there will be so many skills available that no one will ever be an exact duplicate as one another.  I'm hoping NQ develops a huge and diverse skill tree that no one in 20 years could learn it all.  There will always be those common skills everyone needs to learn but past those few is when players become different.

 

3 - If attributes are to be used, then let it be many attributes.  The more there is, the more unique a character will be.  Also, limit the amount of points that are distributed thus making that players attribute choice for the character very important.  Make it extremely hard to increase an attribute or else everyone will just catch up to everyone eventually.  Finally, NO RESETS OF ATTRIBUTE POINTS.  Once its done, its done.  This is a mistake I think EVE online did (several times).  You want different attributes set, make a new character.

 

4 - In conjunction with the skill learning above, I would suggest some form of upgrade or requirement to advance to the next level/master level/or whatever.  The upgrade or requirement could be a physical item that is required (and hard to find/get/make) or some action that needs to be performed or an upgrade to the brain or something that would cost a fortune (something not easily attainable) or a combination of all of the above.  This would make being a Master "<insert skill>" something worthwhile with a great sense of accomplishment.  Not to mention he/she will be sought out for their specialty.

 

Just my thoughts on this matter.

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