Skill Training

[Danger]

I understand that there will be skill system similar to EVE Online. You get learning book, you use it and then start training. It "just" takes time... but what I hated in EVE Online was that there was no way to go around this and for example improve your skills with missiles just by using them over and over.

 

Would be nice to see skills being slowly affected also by just doing something. Let's say that next level of skill requires 64.000 skill points and you are automatically learning it by 1 point/sec (60 per minute, 3.600 per hour). Would be great to hit enemy and get skill increase +16 for example.

 

This should pay off enough that every hour you keep not just passively training, but also actively you would get about 50% more of skill points. And also it would give you freedom to passively learn one thing (let's say this is happening automatically by brain implant) and actively something else, as in real life - you learn many things by doing them :-)

[Pang_Dread]

nah I think passive training is better in games like this. If active training then you simply are creating grinds and tedious gameplay.

 

If there's a choice between active and passive then there's no real choice at all. The cookie cutter method will be active grinding of skills. Instead of just naturally playing the game you would be going out of your way to do things you wouldn't normally just to get more skill points.

[Danger]

nah I think passive training is better in games like this. If active training then you simply are creating grinds and tedious gameplay.

 

If there's a choice between active and passive then there's no real choice at all. The cookie cutter method will be active grinding of skills. Instead of just naturally playing the game you would be going out of your way to do things you wouldn't normally just to get more skill points.

 

I partially agree, but I'm not asking for active approach to be more effective than passive. I just want to see at least some (even if small enough to prevent grinding) small gain, because else it feels just as a grind for wealth only. I really had this feeling in EVE and I would like to go out mining and see that my avatar learned something new during it. If someone wants to use these small gains to get faster to MAX skill, I don't mind. It's their choice how they want to play it.

 

But for me personally the game would be much more immersing and rewarding for your actions. Even if it's just... let's say 10-25% effectivity of active training compared to passive training.

[Dygz_Briarthorn]

If I'm off on some far off planet trying to hone my archaeology/ruins/scanning skills, I don't want to have to find a book to begin that process.

NPC trainers would be better than books.

[Anaximander]

The Lore has cerebral implants that are linked to the Arkship's database. You get the skil ltraining by "downloading" data. The real question is, if the Devs will implement a skillpoints maximum capacity, so we can avoid having people who are pilots / gunners / heavy assault trained,/ Power Armor wearing / Jet-pack using / hacking masters / haulers, cause that is not something normal, that's Steven Seagal levels of ridiculousness (and make new players pretty much impossible to ever hoping on catching up to veterans in skillpoints).

 

 

The system is fine, it requires no "grinding levels", but it needs a cap, so people can feel specialised instead of "golly, now I can be a trader in power armor, sweet!" It takes away from "specialisation" by a lot, and the role part of the RPG feels more of a "welp, you can be DaVinci^infinity."

[Schoff]

The Lore has cerebral implants that are linked to the Arkship's database. You get the skil ltraining by "downloading" data. The real question is, if the Devs will implement a skillpoints maximum capacity, so we can avoid having people who are pilots / gunners / heavy assault trained,/ Power Armor wearing / Jet-pack using / hacking masters / haulers, cause that is not something normal, that's Steven Seagal levels of ridiculousness (and make new players pretty much impossible to ever hoping on catching up to veterans in skillpoints).

 

 

The system is fine, it requires no "grinding levels", but it needs a cap, so people can feel specialised instead of "golly, now I can be a trader in power armor, sweet!" It takes away from "specialisation" by a lot, and the role part of the RPG feels more of a "welp, you can be DaVinci^infinity."

 

Is this not confirmed? It seems like skill caps are something they intend, given they are allowing you to have 3 characters.  If not, I hope there are skill-caps too. Even if they are relatively high and allow for unrelated specializations. 

[Hotwingz]

They have said that technically you can learn everything. But the time it would take makes it impractical. You will have to pick a path if you want to be the best at something. Having said that there is nothing preventing to be a jack of all trades.

 

But remember; jack of all trades, master of none.

[Hotwingz]

Is this not confirmed? It seems like skill caps are something they intend,

From the KS page:

 

///

Novaquark Creator 4 days ago

@Brian:

You misunderstood the part on the skills. You won't be limited to a specific set of skills. There is no class or career in Dual Universe, just sets of skills that could unlock different activities and improve your efficiency in those activities. Those who want to be a builder will naturally train the skills related to building, those who want to be a military will naturally train the military skills... Or you can be a "Jack of All Trades", be moderately efficient in all kinds of activity, but it will be difficult to be as efficient as someone who took all his time to train skills in one specific field of activity

 

////

No caps.

[Anaximander]

They have said that technically you can learn everything. But the time it would take makes it impractical. You will have to pick a path if you want to be the best at something. Having said that there is nothing preventing to be a jack of all trades.

 

But remember; jack of all trades, master of none.

If your crew on a 100 people ship has played for 10 years across the board, then technically, you have 100 people who are piltots/ gunners / engineers and call all handle handheld weapons and wear power armor, making them 100 people who can overwhlem your weaker crew who are not jack of all trades.

 

In EVE, the "master everything" thing works, because it's one ship / one person in that context. You can't transform your ship on the fly away from your base to meet the situation. A ship in EVE, is essentially a Class in other MMOs and your equipment on that ship is your "Gear". 

 

A crewman in DUAL can switch to a power armor and become a marine in a way. Have a crew of 10 years of playing, add a container with power armors (or even have them wearing them all the time) and you got a disparity between new players and old players, a disparity that is game-breaking at best and discouraging for new players at worst.

 

The EVE skill training is fine, it's the no skill-cap that does not translate in DUAL.

[Hotwingz]

Look at 1 post above yours.

Seems like a pretty set in stone answer.

[Anaximander]

Look at 1 post above yours.

Seems like a pretty set in stone answer.

Why would someone be a jack of all trades / master of none, if skill caps do not exist? You can be master of all, at once. You won't need to know architecture to build, you will only access new tools and / or limits on your copy paste tool.

 

The way I read it, is "we have skillpoints caps and the collective amount of them can be allocated to make a person average on meeting all possible situations on an average level."

 

I bet it's another communication error like the DAC issue, otherwise the game will be very daunting for new players.

 

After five years, new players will be shoved in the direction of "cannon fodder" if they want to join any organisation," because everyone is a builder now, there's no need for more building specialised people now."

[Archonious]

I don't think it is good idea to mix. It could be fine, if there would be experience level of actions. Separatelly from Skills. As example:

If you have MAX experience:

-Mining - +5% Ore

-Refinering - +5% find rare crystals

-Building - +5% speed to create

-Attacks - +5% chance to hit/crit/"status effect"

-Defence - +5% chance to dodge/ricochet/absord

 

and others.

 

So experienced players have small advantage.

 

P.S: Personally, I don't really want to see any secondary system. But I understand, it can increase deepness of game knowledge/exploration for many players.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

[Anaximander]

I don't think it is good idea to mix. It could be fine, if there would be experience level of actions. Separatelly from Skills. As example:

If you have MAX experience:

-Mining - +5% Ore

-Refinering - +5% find rare crystals

-Building - +5% speed to create

-Attacks - +5% chance to hit/crit/"status effect"

-Defence - +5% chance to dodge/ricochet/absord

 

and others.

 

So experienced players have small advantage.

 

P.S: Personally, I don't really want to see any secondary system. But I understand, it can increase deepness of game knowledge/exploration for many players.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

They did say that skills provide passive bonuses, like say "Power Armor Training" making you able to move faster in a suit of Power ARmor, instead of the 50% penalty you would get for being untrained. Personally, I believe getting "more stuff" by specialisation is kind of game-breaking. I would rather see "smelting" bonuses for miners, let's say, you process dirt and what you know, you gotten some iron out of it hidden in there and all that stuff, or even better, grades of minerals for smelting them together, like, smelt iron and carbon together to make steel, sre, anyone can do that, but a miner can proccure Stainless Steel and all that goes along with it.

[Hotwingz]

Why would someone be a jack of all trades / master of none, if skill caps do not exist?

Perhaps it is undeed a communication issue. But I doubt it. JC said in an interview that a person was free to change professions whenever they wanted.

 

And I agree with that. You may want caps I however do not.

 

I dont think everybody being a master will be an issue. The amount of time it would take to learn everything makes it not practical. Player freedom is a core value of DU, the skill system should follow the same values.

[Anaximander]

Perhaps it is undeed a communication issue. But I doubt it. JC said in an interview that a person was free to change professions whenever they wanted.

 

And I agree with that. You may want caps I however do not.

 

I dont think everybody being a master will be an issue. The amount of time it would take to learn everything makes it not practical. Player freedom is a core value of DU, the skill system should follow the same values.

So, we will end up with WoW's "gearscore" issue.

 

"Looking for battleship crew, only 10,000,000,000 Skillpoints accepted."

 

"But I play five months, I know how to and I have mastered gunnery skills."

 

"Well, sorry noob, we need 10,000,000,000 SP guys, because we need gunner / pilot / engineer / medic / Heavy Assault / Light Assauilt / Demolitions / Cook for our ship."

 

 

This is where this goes with no skill caps. Similar to WoW's gearscore. "Oh, you have 50 GS less than the next guy over but you are way more skilled? Sorry, GS is truth, GS is life."

[Kurosawa]

The Lore has cerebral implants that are linked to the Arkship's database. You get the skil ltraining by "downloading" data. The real question is, if the Devs will implement a skillpoints maximum capacity, so we can avoid having people who are pilots / gunners / heavy assault trained,/ Power Armor wearing / Jet-pack using / hacking masters / haulers, cause that is not something normal, that's Steven Seagal levels of ridiculousness (and make new players pretty much impossible to ever hoping on catching up to veterans in skillpoints).

 

 

The system is fine, it requires no "grinding levels", but it needs a cap, so people can feel specialised instead of "golly, now I can be a trader in power armor, sweet!" It takes away from "specialisation" by a lot, and the role part of the RPG feels more of a "welp, you can be DaVinci^infinity."

 

I hope they go with a fully open system without any limits or caps except for time, this allows a much more devised play, and not just a cookie cutter design.

 

Regarding catcing up, i think you thinking is flawed. lets assume they go with an EVE style system and simplify it a bit.

 

Player A has Battleship, Cruiser, Frigate and Carrier at level 5

Player B has Battle ship at 5 all else at 1

 

Since both has Battleship 5 they pilot Battleships equilly well with in the skill system, the fact that player A can fly other stuff is irrelevant.

[Pang_Dread]

I hope they go with a fully open system without any limits or caps except for time, this allows a much more devised play, and not just a cookie cutter design.

 

Regarding catcing up, i think you thinking is flawed. lets assume they go with an EVE style system and simplify it a bit.

 

Player A has Battleship, Cruiser, Frigate and Carrier at level 5

Player B has Battle ship at 5 all else at 1

 

Since both has Battleship 5 they pilot Battleships equilly well with in the skill system, the fact that player A can fly other stuff is irrelevant.

Yeah this. Its not like there is only one single linear path of progression. If my guild is recruiting fighters, I'll recruit those with the highest skills in fighting(as well as many other factors ofc), not just the most skilled overall outright.

 

Can also make it so initial skill lvls go faster and as you get higher skill it goes slower. So new players can quickly catch up and vet won't have an insurmountable advantage.

[Danger]

The system as they plan it (EVE-like) will work very well - there will be let's say 5 levels for each skill and every next level takes more and more time. No respecs. What you learn you can't change. But you can always learn new things.

 

What I meant with initial post was to introduce small gain to skills also for their active use. And for the books, I don't like it either. Hopefully the devs will soon reveal more details about the exact system they want to implement.

[Anaximander]

Hmm, I was caught up with some guys over at the community Discord and as it turns out, if the Devs go with Attributes and all that, the skill-system will work fine without skillcaps.

[Archonious]

Limited, unlimited... both systems have PROs and CONs.

 

But one thing I know for sure:

If system is limited, then player need to have limited choice as well. I mean, to avoid situation "One-Man-Army" (in skill meaning, when player can do everything and expert in everything).

 

Want player based economy, then must be massive variation of choices.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

[Shynras]

I agree that the eveonline system is slow and boring, but mostly it depends on the gameplay. In DU instead, you can build, explore player made cities, and do various things that should keep you busy while eaiting for skills to level up. So should work. 

[AccuNut]

 What I meant with initial post was to introduce small gain to skills also for their active use. And for the books, I don't like it either. Hopefully the devs will soon reveal more details about the exact system they want to implement.

I admit it would be nice to have a little bonus, however small, for actually doing something. I can also see the problems with it given the way the game is intended to be played though.

 

My thought is this: you can only get so "skilled" at something by passive training. Lets say you can only reach 8 or 9 out of the 10 possible levels. After that, you HAVE to USE what you learned in order to reach level 10, and it would take a long, long time.

 

That way, it would add another barrier to someone being maxed on everything, because it would mean a lot of actual work in the various skills.

 

I know they are trying to avoid the "grinding" aspect of gameplay, but it would seem more immersive if only those who actually focus on a skill are able to reach their full potential with it.

[ShinyMagnemite]

"Back in my day tv was called books, and this is a special book."

 

So instead of books or NPCs, what if there are specific data modules or terminals that have to be built to advance forward?  As in, the Arkship will only get everyone so far because the arkship doesn't use a jump drive or a jump gate so how would we know of that technology?

 

Mind you this would be some late-game tech...

[Titanis]

Slightly off topic but I hope there will be an option to automatically renew my subscription and cue my skill learning as long as I like. If I have a 2 or 3 month break its good to know I've been learning skills for those months I diddnt log in and manually pay my subcription. My eve account was set up like this so when I came back I had learned like 3 months worth of skills without even logging in. It's a waste not playing the game I know, but I was thankful that I came back to being able to do something that would have been a long and frustrating wait for

[DaSchiz]

Slightly off topic but I hope there will be an option to automatically renew my subscription and cue my skill learning as long as I like. If I have a 2 or 3 month break its good to know I've been learning skills for those months I diddnt log in and manually pay my subcription. My eve account was set up like this so when I came back I had learned like 3 months worth of skills without even logging in. It's a waste not playing the game I know, but I was thankful that I came back to being able to do something that would have been a long and frustrating wait for

 

I wouldn't see why NQ wouldn't like donations