Minting in-game currency

[wizardoftrash]

As it stands right now, the devs plan on setting up some NPC traders to get in-game money circulating. At a certain point they plan to remove the NPC's, and allow the amount of currency that is out there to simply continue circulating. When the currency is at a "fixed" value, as more players start to play the game, the in-game currency will start to deflate, as more players will need currency, and players with currency will occasionally quit playing, leading to loss.

 

So in theory, the NPC's could simply reappear to add more currency to circulation.... or instead...

 

How about have a rare ore in the game mintable into in-game currency? So what resources are present on a given planet is procedurally controlled by the devs, there can be an infinite number of planets, so in theory the currency supply could increase to any given value. Lets pretend for a moment that a rare or called Moneytonium is in the game, and its only use is to be processed by a machine into in-game currency.

 

For one, now printing money is a profession that requires some infrastructure. People would have to mine it, and then process it into Moneytonium. This is kind of neat, as it sort of works like Gold Mines back in the day of the gold standard. There are a few problems that this could present, but there may be solutions to these problems as well.

 

1. The currency could inflate out of control if currency is being added to the market in large amounts. This could be a really big problem, as players could dedicate huge amounts of time to mining for Moneytonium so that they can buy their ideal spacecraft instead of mining for the needed materials to build it.

 

Solution: Control the spawn rate of Moneytonium veins in planets. Once there are enough spacebux for a stable economy, the devs could just flip the "Spawn Moneytonium Veins" switch, and no new veins can be discovered or scanned for, they will simply stop spawning ( or iron will spawn there instead). Once the currency begins to deflate too much again, then they can flip the switch back on, and newly discovered planets now have more Moneytonium. This could be implemented in the event that player behavior favors mining for Moneytonium instead of mining for other resources and producing goods. plus we might not even need this kind of fix, as if the currency has inflated so much that spacebux aren't worth much, it won't be worth it to mine for and process Moneytonium anyways unless you are in a VERY REMOTE COLONY and NEED that money for your local economy. If you are far enough away from trade hubs, the value of iron on homeplanet prime won't be relevent in the way outer rim.

 

2. There is a conceptual problem with an in-game material (Moneytonium ore) becoming a digital currency that can't be touched or stolen. How exactly does that occur? Matter can't exactly become data right? This is a tricky one because digital currencies simply aren't grounded in physical things, and the Moneytonium ore into spacebux transformation is a bit bizarre.

 

Solution: I've got nothing for this one, however NPC's that mysteriously circulate digital currency is a strangeness in itself too. I can come up with a good flavorful reason for this to make sense, that AI's that immegrated with the humans needed to establish a currency, so they arbitrated the currency system. They re-appear to distribute more currency if they see civilization struggling with managing their economy, it sorta makes sense. But what do they do with what they trade for? where does it go? Emerson has to give somewhere for a game to be fun, otherwise we would be bored out of our mind while our characters spend time cooking, eating, using the toilet, and sleeping. TLDR my solution here is that breaking immersion is simply a needed comprimise.

 

3. What happens when someone just keeps hoarding spacebux? In theory, if the currency reaches points of inflation, players could trade fewer goods for larger quantities of spacebux. Imagine an org doing this, harvesting resources in a safe way, trading them ONLY when people are mining enough spacebux to inflate currency, and then just sitting on the resulting bux. On the flip side, an org could aggressively mine Moneytonium for a long time and either wait to mint it to avoid triggering the inflation saveguards in the game, or mint it continuously but not spend it, to accumulate a ton of wealth without inflating the currency. Then in one swoop, buy up everything they can and crash the market?

 

Solution: In the same way that you can effectively "mine" money and process it using a mint unit, they may create a corresponding element that turns in-game currency into other rare materials at a fixed rate, but ONLY when inflation reaches certain thresholds. This provides a way for players to leech money out of the market if the price of goods gets all wacked out, and a temporary crash would then not have lasting consequences. This will work especially well if the digital currency is some kind of energy instead of data. If Moneytonium is a charged or irradiated material, and the printing process extracts said energy into spacebux and leaves stone or dirt as a byproduct, then perhapse what's special about this energy currency is that a large amount can be compressed into rare crystals or metals, and only when the galaxy has too much of that energy floating around.

 

So here I've got a pretty good framework, let the flaming begin!

[Kuritho]

Or we could just have organizations print their own money with their materials of choice. Then THEY trade their money for other items. If the organization is stupid, they'll try to buy everything but behold, people will be like "Their money ani't worth nuthin'."

 

But yeah, your idea could work well.*

 

*better than mine

[wizardoftrash]

Or we could just have organizations print their own money with their materials of choice. Then THEY trade their money for other items. If the organization is stupid, they'll try to buy everything but behold, people will be like "Their money ani't worth nuthin'."

 

But yeah, your idea could work well.*

 

*better than mine

I thought about that too, but you already pointed out the problem I encountered.

 

Alternatively a specific material could become a defacto currency, like bartering with gold or silver instead of cash IRL. Minecraft servers tend to work this way, where an in-demand resource becomes currency. The private server my group plays on mainly uses diamonds as currency, or iron for smaller transactions. At one point I did a mining survey and came up with an exchange rate based on what materials were found at what rate on the server's most common mining depth, and we just used that for trading.

[Schoff]

To make things easier and more manageable (by NQ intervention), what would happen if they implemented interest rates being earned on money you held? It may not be necessary to start, or the rate be very small, but it's something they could change from time to time, as the need for more currency is required. I'm talking very small percentages...

 

This would provide a constant (small) flow of currency into the market. NQ could either halt interest rates, increase or decrease them, depending on what is needed within the economy.

 

Just a thought...

[wizardoftrash]

To make things easier and more manageable (by NQ intervention), what would happen if they implemented interest rates being earned on money you held? It may not be necessary to start, or the rate be very small, but it's something they could change from time to time, as the need for more currency is required. I'm talking very small percentages...

 

This would provide a constant (small) flow of currency into the market. NQ could either halt interest rates, increase or decrease them, depending on what is needed within the economy.

 

Just a thought...

That would discourage players from spending currency, keeping it off the market.

[Hotwingz]

I am reading with great interest.

At the moment I dont think its a good idea to give players direct control over the minting of currency.

 

I dont understand it when you explain how you are going to prevent abuse.

 

Although I am curious to see what other people have to say.

[Schoff]

That would discourage players from spending currency, keeping it off the market.

 

Not really.... Just like in RL. I buy/sell things all the time, even though I can keep money in my shitty checking/savings account and get marginal interest income. So as long as there is opportunity in the market to buy things and sell them somewhere else for a profit (or buy, alter, and sell new product), people will participate in the market.

 

I'm not talking about 5% interest. I'm talking about <1%, but enough to keep new currency flowing. And, again, the rate can be adjusted by NQ. They could even develop lore around it. 

 

I would much rather prefer this over a currency that can be mined/printed by players...

[wizardoftrash]

In our society, we MUST buy and sell things to live a normal life. That will NOT be the case in a game where a player could mine, refine, craft and build on their own or benefit from all their needed services in-org.

 

We'd see a defacto currency emerge if players moneyhog, pretty emergent solution if it occurs.

[Schoff]

In our society, we MUST buy and sell things to live a normal life. That will NOT be the case in a game where a player could mine, refine, craft and build on their own or benefit from all their needed services in-org.

 

We'd see a defacto currency emerge if players moneyhog, pretty emergent solution if it occurs.

 

I'm not talking about normal purchases. I'm talking about investing. People (including myself) invest in commodities all the time because it provides a greater return than just holding your money in a bank (among other reasons, like diversifying)

 

My point is that, should interest be implemented, it won't stop people from spending money. Additionally, interest means more money in people's pockets. This means they have more disposable income, which means they have more money to spend in the market.

 

Don't think for a minute that there won't be people buying/selling things as a sole profession. People love playing the market. 

[BliitzTheFox]

Never underestimate the resourcefulness of the people, if there is any way to print currency, no matter how difficult or complicated, they will mass produce it and abuse it.

 

The interest rate on everything is the way to go. It's how it works in the US as the federal government adjusts interest rates.

 

Honestly though I like the idea of large organizations or groups of creating currencies as it would give the most emergent and realistic approach. Economies fail in the real world so I'm not worried about that as much, but what would worry me is how you would sell a DAC in that environment, it's not possible to be fair so this system cannot work in a game. Unless we make it as unfair as real life which would be a terrible game/business model.

[Schoff]

Never underestimate the resourcefulness of the people, if there is any way to print currency, no matter how difficult or complicated, they will mass produce it and abuse it.

 

The interest rate on everything is the way to go. It's how it works in the US as the federal government adjusts interest rates.

 

Honestly though I like the idea of large organizations or groups of creating currencies as it would give the most emergent and realistic approach. Economies fail in the real world so I'm not worried about that as much, but what would worry me is how you would sell a DAC in that environment, it's not possible to be fair so this system cannot work in a game. Unless we make it as unfair as real life which would be a terrible game/business model.

 

I agree that an in-game mechanic for printing currency will be abused/controlled (and abused) by the major orgs.

 

A small interest rate players can earn on their currency is the only way I see a steady flow of currency into the market, without the need for NQ to spawn in NPC's after the initial release. This is the only system I can think of that doesn't allow for player abuse. In fact, I think it would work quite well. 

 

Interest rates increase, some players will want to liquidate their inventories by selling, creating opportunities for others in the market.

Interest rates decrease, people will be more apt to purchasing goods in a way to earn more money because they can't rely on interest rates.

And finally--interest income means more (disposable) income to players. That means more players want to participate in the market.

 

Understand, we're talking small percentages! Not some crazy 5% interest rate. But, just enough where money keeps coming in.

 

-edit-

 

There are more ways that NQ can guide the market using this method than simply increasing/decreasing rates. They could, for instance, increase/decrease the maximum balance on which interest is earned. So, someone holding $4m may only earn interest on $1m of their currency. You could have different rates for individuals/organizations, with different ceilings. 

[croxis]

What I know about economics comes from a xenobiology class I took back in uni (of all things).

 

An economy is a system. "Energy" enters the system, moves around the system, and is pulled out of the system. This "pressure" (in energy its called flux) is what drives the internal parts of a system. A more practical analogy is a faucet and sink. If the faucet is off and the sink is plugged then the economy will gradually stop. The reason why not anyone can print money (legally) and developers in Eve control ratting payouts is so people who know what they are doing can control the flux on the economy to have "stuff happen" at an optimal/fun speed.

[Lord_Void]

What I know about economics comes from a xenobiology class I took back in uni (of all things).

 

An economy is a system. "Energy" enters the system, moves around the system, and is pulled out of the system. This "pressure" (in energy its called flux) is what drives the internal parts of a system. A more practical analogy is a faucet and sink. If the faucet is off and the sink is plugged then the economy will gradually stop. The reason why not anyone can print money (legally) and developers in Eve control ratting payouts is so people who know what they are doing can control the flux on the economy to have "stuff happen" at an optimal/fun speed.

 

Agreed. The simplest solution (which is also the tried and true solution) is to have active faucets and sinks for currency. The exact manner of implementing them in Dual Universe would be up for debate, and require a fair amount of fine-tuning, but I can't see having a stagnant currency leading to anything but economic stagnation. And having NQ have to intervene on a regular basis to correct the failings of a stagnant currency is A) extra work for NQ diminishes the emergent gameplay aspects of the game and C) incredibly complicated. CCP (EVE Online) has to employ a full-time economist (I think they actually may have several now) to monitor and help stabilize the economy, and that's with a fairly straightforward sink/faucet system. NQ has enough to worry about, even without trying to act like a central bank. 

 

I think the solution is to have currency sinks and faucets, like other games, that allows for currency to enter the economy at a steady rate as the economy increases in size. Possibly in the form of npc market bots which buy and sell low level materials for set prices or rewards for completing tasks of some kind.

[Hotwingz]

...CCP (EVE Online) has to employ a full-time economist (I think they actually may have several now)...

 

Yeap, last time I checked CCP has some people working on their economy. But the big name economist Doctor Eyjólfur left the team in 2014 to take up a position as rector at a university in Iceland.

 

Just wanted to add that little fact.

[Rhehaud180]

I would love to take some of his classes.

[Lord_Void]

Yeap, last time I checked CCP has some people working on their economy. But the big name economist Doctor Eyjólfur left the team in 2014 to take up a position as rector at a university in Iceland.

 

Just wanted to add that little fact.

 

Oh, he did? I'm surprised I didn't know this. Haha I guess that's why PLEX prices have soared!

 

I would also love to take his classes.

[Velenka]

If the devs are going to implement the market "bots" in the beginning, why would they go through all the trouble of making another economy source? It would be much simpler to turn the bots on and off.

 

As far as a sink, I'm thinking that when constructs are destroyed, there shouldn't be any scrap generated from the destruction at all. With no scrap and no construct, the value has disappeared.

[Hotwingz]

As far as a sink, I'm thinking that when constructs are destroyed, there shouldn't be any scrap generated from the destruction at all. With no scrap and no construct, the value has disappeared.

That would take away a lot of gameplay for the pirates or other scoundrel like types.

[Velenka]

Might remove scrap yard jobs, but pirates, no. Pirates should be looking to capture and loot, not destroy. Besides, losing value with the destruction of voxels seems a more natural way of sinking currency.

[Hotwingz]

Might remove scrap yard jobs, but pirates, no. Pirates should be looking to capture and loot, not destroy. Besides, losing value with the destruction of voxels seems a more natural way of sinking currency.

Yea, they should but...

[Anaximander]

My suggestion.



Add a 1% fee to all "quantum wirings" of money and call the network that enables it "Arknet".


IF a person uses the Arknet to wire mone to another character, that 1% of the transaction, is added to the NPCs in the market that buy stuff from new players only (linked to the player's account of course and the NPCs buy only low tier minerals, the same tier of minerals regenerating around the Ark).

To avoid exploitation, the NPCs will prioritise Full Accounts, instead of trial accounts, with a ratio of 1:10, which means, for every ten purchases by the NPCs, one of them will be towards a Trial Account.

Renting space inside the Arkzone? Same scheme, with renting money going into the Arkship's NPC organisation, thus to the market NPCs... "The Noah Corporation" (or whatever ) .

This system ensures :

1) A fixed amount in circulation worth of money (as much as NQ sees fit)
2) People who build in the Arkzone and rent a space, won't have that space forever (their rent is paid automatically, until they are dried of it).
3) Whatever happens, the new solo player, will always have the chance to make money farming solo around the Arkship.




I had made a similar suggestion as you Wizard, my mineral called Cashium-1337 (I know, l33t ). But it doens't add up to the overall meaning of the game's sci-fi lore.

Gold IRL, has value, because people said it has. Sure, it can be used in engineering, but plutonium goes for more than gold.

Why people don't trade in plutonium? While money is power in an abstract sense, plutonium is actual power.

Why people don't utilise gold for its uses more? Because they were told it has "value", so they avoid to do so.

While Moneytonium / Cashin-1337 would be nice to have and have people going in mad gold rushes across space, we seem to forget... that will happen regardless.

You found a planet full of Rhenium? Sweet, you are now a billionaire. Mix that thing with some nickel and you get an alloy that is to steel, what steel is to bronze.


There are other ways to control the flow of cash, other than minting

[DaSchiz]

In no way should players have any control directly in the creation of currency.  This would turn into a gold rush instead of a functioning economy game. Why do any productive service to earn money when you can hunt for it. Then those who find it even if it is limited would have a huge unfair advantage in controlling market prices for everything.

 

You bring up a good question however and tbh there will need to be some sort of npc way of earning money.  I know NQ has said they plan on phasing out any npc interaction after the economy is jump started but I do not see how that would work.  You need a way of controlling the money supply to make sure there is no great extreme of either inflation or deflation. This would really be determined by how many players are active which will fluctuate. 

 

Eve's big tool in this regard are the npc factions ... for example ratting or missions.  This allows the creation of money into the economy while fees or taxes can pull money out of the economy.  This is to try to maintain some sort of balance or at least a gradual or low rate of inflation.

 

I can't say I have the perfect solution and really haven't thought much about a solution however players being able to create currency in any way is not good for the player base as a whole AND keeping the total amount of currency circulating stagnant is not an option as well. A player ran economy is very realistic but I do not think NQ eventually being totally hands off the control of the money supply which structures the environment of said economy and not influencing it at the least is realistic.

 

(how is that for a run on sentence?)