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First in game credits/money


Deacon

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I'm curious, where will the very first game money come from?  Do we start with a certain amount? If not, how is the economy going to be jumpstarted? How will more be produced, so everyone is just recirculating the same money over and over, just shifting who currently has it?

 

Thanks

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The devs plan for bots to buy from players in the marketplace terminals so they can add a certain amount of money in circulation, then, they remove the bots and let the players buy and sell things for the money that exist in circulation.

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So once that certain threshold is reached, no more currency will be generated by the game? Won't  that be ruff on an expanding player base ? Can't an organization decide to start hoarding currency, making it harder and harder for others to sell items/obtain currency? Is this another "Emergent" gameplay option, or am I just not seeing the big picture?

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So once that certain threshold is reached, no more currency will be generated by the game? Won't  that be ruff on an expanding player base ? Can't an organization decide to start hoarding currency, making it harder and harder for others to sell items/obtain currency? Is this another "Emergent" gameplay option, or am I just not seeing the big picture?

That's the part. The money in circulation will be in circulation. New players will be finding job boards by players, who will pay said new players for tanks, like, "mine X amount of iron".

 

That's the point of the game, to have a player-driven economy, with jobs (quests) being generated by players, rather than NPCs.

 

We need a fixed amount in circulation, to avoid the WoW issue with NPC generated currency. The prices of items should only fluctuate with supply & demand for the economy to be not a cluster-F.

 

 

If money were to keep generated by NPCs, the game could reach a point of having a banana cost 100,000,000,000 SpaceBucks. Which is the inherit problem of having such an inflatory mechanism, as a perpetual NPC cash generation.

 

 

 

EDIT : Not to mention, organisations have salary systems.

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What's to keep one or more organizations from power grinding to get as much as possible, therefore bringing that set point closer to being reached, and having an unfair amount of currency compared to other organizations? Twerker, your signature is a prime example of what I speak of.

 

 I can exploit that to the maximum      Put the money back in circulation!"... and I'll whisper "no."

 

 

I guess I need to ask, is there any currency sinks, where game takes currency out?  I'm going to guess no at this time.  

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What's to keep one or more organizations from power grinding to get as much as possible, therefore bringing that set point closer to being reached, and having an unfair amount of currency compared to other organizations? Twerker, your signature is a prime example of what I speak of.

 

 

 

I guess I need to ask, is there any currency sinks, where game takes currency out?  I'm going to guess no at this time.  

Ask for lootable DACs if you found my signature scary.

 

 

Also, currency is power, only if people trade with currency. Bartering is always an alternative to money.

 

 

The Devs think that maybe arkification tokens should be bought for an insane amount of money off of the Arkship, ergo, that may be a way for money to get back into circulation via the NPC. You may give money to an NPC for the Arkification Token, but what you actually do is give money to other players at random.

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If it comes down to a single Organization indeed grinding to capture the control of lets say 90% of the wealth, I'm pretty sure something on the Dev side would have to be done to set economic balance back in place.  Though I don't think the collective whole of all the other player "Organizations" & "Free lanced" players would stand to see a single Organization monopolies the circulation of currency.  There would be no doubt some form of all out War where the whole game world VS this Organization, that or the players not in control of legitimate currency, would have to shameful attempt to operate some form of a "Bartering system" to make ends meat.  Not saying I'd want that, but these are just some of my own personal foresight's of what I predict could end up happening if the issue isn't approached with some balancing.

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If it comes down to a single Organization indeed grinding to capture the control of lets say 90% of the wealth, I'm pretty sure something on the Dev side would have to be done to set economic balance back in place.  Though I don't think the collective whole of all the other player "Organizations" & "Free lanced" players would stand to see a single Organization monopolies the circulation of currency.  There would be no doubt some form of all out War where the whole game world VS this Organization, that or the players not in control of legitimate currency, would have to shameful attempt to operate some form of a "Bartering system" to make ends meat.  Not saying I'd want that, but these are just some of my own personal foresight's of what I predict could end up happening if the issue isn't approached with some balancing.

Wars will happen, supply for ships will be high, the 90% money-in-circulation organisation will have to buy ships from third-parties to keep its fleets full of people and the money will go back in circulation.

 

 

Or you expect ships to be magically built in 10 seconds, WoW style? :P Ships may take a wekk to be built ina factory, heck, even a month perhaps, for an automated system to build them. Even with Blueprints => Deploy Blueprint & Core Unit => 3D-paint the blueprint with voxels, that may take days to the minimum, with a well organised engineers corps, but in the end, the 90% of  the money organisation will have to delegate its production to third parties.

 

 

No need for more money on the Devs' side. It's all about players driving the economy.

 

 

 

Except if the 90% comes into my hands. I'm burning that money, just to see the world burn.

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They will need to add money as the player base increases of the economy will deflate.

Trial accounts made every other day, inflation hits like a track.

 

Players' running 3 or 5 accounts for multiboxing.

 

Deflation is hard, but inflation is worse.

 

Look at WoW. When I played, it was 100g for a 20 elixir bundle. Now it's skyrocketing, so much, that Blizzard to icnrease the Gold Cap for the players.

 

Didn't think of that, did you? :P I thought you read Snow Crash, let's not reach to the point where a trillion is not worth its magnitude :P

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If there's no source of new money but there is a source of new production, the economy will deflate catastrophically. Unless a new money currency (edited for clarity) can be created, but that will be impossible in DU. Inflation won't be an option unless there's a new source of money.

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If there's no source of new money but there is a source of new production, the economy will deflate catastrophically. Unless a new money currency (edited for clarity) can be created, but that will be impossible in DU. Inflation won't be an option unless there's a new source of money.

Player... made... jobs...

 

 

Also, organisations have salary options for their members. Ain't nobody joining the Meat Grinder Batallion without getting paid to strom them hills full of automated turrets in attempts to clog the meat grinder of the enemy.

 

 

You know, standard attrition warfare. Nobody is gonna do that thing for free. Like in EVE, people use new players for certain tasks and those players get paid for the jobs they do.

 

 

 

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They've only said that the NPC's might, as in maybe possibly or on certain conditions, go away or stop offering money to players.

 

Its not that there will be a fixed amount of money in circulation, but that they'll actively monitor the economy and standard flow of currency.

 

Orgs that try to destabilize things and destroy the overall economy will become the bane of everyone. It wont be possible to horde 90% of the game money even if youre a super super villain, but just assuming some organisation gets close, theyll be looted, sacked, and pillaged by countless hordes of people. And no number of mercenaries will save them from round the clock assaults from peasants and commies, as that'll be what they turn everyone into.

 

A good game econ has a way for money to flow in, and a way for it to flow out. If the analogy is a sink, then the faucet is where money comes in, the drain is where money flows out, but then theres also another part called a overflow pipe that prevents a sink from going above a certain level.

 

As people quit and become inactive, NPC's increase how much theyll offer you for 100 resource of Iron, because money has technically escaped through the drain. It may still exist, but its inactive and not being traded regularly.

 

If lets say, a large number of players suddenly turn in resources all at once and the water level rapidly rises, the price of goods on the market goes up because people have more money. The NPC's can have a credits to resource system. Nobody would ever buy Iron for 1500 credits, if they can buy it for 1200 from an NPC, unless theyre out on the fringe of civilization and have no way to get resources from the Novark to where they're at.

 

So if the money goes over a certain level, the automatic systems in place will help deter inflation. and Likewise if the levels become to low, NQ will crank up the faucet and pour more money in.

No one person, org, alliance, collective, or force in the game will be able to control what NQ does.

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Economy require permament money supply. Yes, it must not be so huge as in WoW, it can be balanced very easy. As exampe, NQ has counter of active money, as soon circulation of money drops down (average on total players amount), NPCs get limited amount of money to fill up the gap.

 

WoW's issue is that, they do not have enough money remove from game (repair and tax on auction mainly). But income from farming is HUGE. This is massive disbalance, but they need it to force some players go forward in updates.

 

If DU economy will be closed and won't have any money remove, it will make pain in ass for DevTeam.

1. Amount of players (more players, more money need)

2. Amount of players who left the game (more leaver with money, more money need)

3. Amount of money in treasures (not 1 org, but all players) (more money in hold, more money need)

4. Long time play, demand grows only (as bigger projects and research level, as more money economy need).

 

That is only 4 factors which require money emission. If it won't happens:

1. Every player won't have enough money (100 players with 100g = 1:1, 10'000 with 100g = 1:0,01)

2. Total amount of money going down. (If every leaver has 1g in pocket, 10 leavers remove 10g, 1'000 leavers removè 1'000g)

3. Similar as No3. But it can grow more and more.

4. If my demand in early game is 100g, in late game it could be 100'000g (bigger ships as simple example).

 

So with fixed amount of money (NOC removed, no emissions) economy would have troubles very soon, but hopefully it will be easy tested in Alpha.

 

Game require money remove.

Why? That is balance process. If Dev can see average money use and make emissions, there must be process which will stop:

1. Treasures unlock (massive money increase, need to stop emissions)

2. Reduction of player rotation (less leavers, less new players)

 

So it would looks like:

-Total amount of money (active money) goes down (taxes, some parts could be bought from NPCs only)

-NQ add amount of gold to NPCs

-Something happened, orgs open treasures, more money on market

-NQ do not make emissions, money start go out from game (tax, components, other)

-Progress going forward (overall prices going up, NQ need to have counter), demand is growing

-NQ add amount of gold to NPCs

 

Overall, prices display inflation and deflation, both are bad for economy. So NQ need to have regulator. As in real life, healthy economy has ~1% of inflation, that is progress demand increase (in basic words).

 

Players can not balance economy without emissions and non-stopable money remove from the game. I hope NQ has somebody who understand economy very well. Otherwise we will learn it all together =)))

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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They've only said that the NPC's might, as in maybe possibly or on certain conditions, go away or stop offering money to players.

 

Its not that there will be a fixed amount of money in circulation, but that they'll actively monitor the economy and standard flow of currency.

 

Orgs that try to destabilize things and destroy the overall economy will become the bane of everyone. It wont be possible to horde 90% of the game money even if youre a super super villain, but just assuming some organisation gets close, theyll be looted, sacked, and pillaged by countless hordes of people. And no number of mercenaries will save them from round the clock assaults from peasants and commies, as that'll be what they turn everyone into.

 

A good game econ has a way for money to flow in, and a way for it to flow out. If the analogy is a sink, then the faucet is where money comes in, the drain is where money flows out, but then theres also another part called a overflow pipe that prevents a sink from going above a certain level.

 

As people quit and become inactive, NPC's increase how much theyll offer you for 100 resource of Iron, because money has technically escaped through the drain. It may still exist, but its inactive and not being traded regularly.

 

If lets say, a large number of players suddenly turn in resources all at once and the water level rapidly rises, the price of goods on the market goes up because people have more money. The NPC's can have a credits to resource system. Nobody would ever buy Iron for 1500 credits, if they can buy it for 1200 from an NPC, unless theyre out on the fringe of civilization and have no way to get resources from the Novark to where they're at.

 

So if the money goes over a certain level, the automatic systems in place will help deter inflation. and Likewise if the levels become to low, NQ will crank up the faucet and pour more money in.

No one person, org, alliance, collective, or force in the game will be able to control what NQ does.

 

Very good points. In my opinion, I would add that in terms of a videogame inflation is much favorable to deflation. Inflation can be fairly easily dealt with (even in game) as short term increases in total purchasing power (of all money) can prompt increases in resource production which helps to balance out the inflation. Deflation, on the other hand, does the opposite. The more people harvest resources to try and get some of the dwindling cash, the more "valuable" the individual units of currency become relative to the total economy, to the point where they are no longer effective means of trade.

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Economy require permament money supply. Yes, it must not be so huge as in WoW, it can be balanced very easy. As exampe, NQ has counter of active money, as soon circulation of money drops down (average on total players amount), NPCs get limited amount of money to fill up the gap.

WoW's issue is that, they do not have enough money remove from game (repair and tax on auction mainly). But income from farming is HUGE. This is massive disbalance, but they need it to force some players go forward in updates.

If DU economy will be closed and won't have any money remove, it will make pain in ass for DevTeam.

1. Amount of players (more players, more money need)

2. Amount of players who left the game (more leaver with money, more money need)

3. Amount of money in treasures (not 1 org, but all players) (more money in hold, more money need)

4. Long time play, demand grows only (as bigger projects and research level, as more money economy need).

That is only 4 factors which require money emission. If it won't happens:

1. Every player won't have enough money (100 players with 100g = 1:1, 10'000 with 100g = 1:0,01)

2. Total amount of money going down. (If every leaver has 1g in pocket, 10 leavers remove 10g, 1'000 leavers removè 1'000g)

3. Similar as No3. But it can grow more and more.

4. If my demand in early game is 100g, in late game it could be 100'000g (bigger ships as simple example).

So with fixed amount of money (NOC removed, no emissions) economy would have troubles very soon, but hopefully it will be easy tested in Alpha.

Game require money remove.

Why? That is balance process. If Dev can see average money use and make emissions, there must be process which will stop:

1. Treasures unlock (massive money increase, need to stop emissions)

2. Reduction of player rotation (less leavers, less new players)

So it would looks like:

-Total amount of money (active money) goes down (taxes, some parts could be bought from NPCs only)

-NQ add amount of gold to NPCs

-Something happened, orgs open treasures, more money on market

-NQ do not make emissions, money start go out from game (tax, components, other)

-Progress going forward (overall prices going up, NQ need to have counter), demand is growing

-NQ add amount of gold to NPCs

Overall, prices display inflation and deflation, both are bad for economy. So NQ need to have regulator. As in real life, healthy economy has ~1% of inflation, that is progress demand increase (in basic words).

Players can not balance economy without emissions and non-stopable money remove from the game. I hope NQ has somebody who understand economy very well. Otherwise we will learn it all together =)))

Thanks,

Archonious

 

You are the kind of person that lost their home due to mortgages.

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They've only said that the NPC's might, as in maybe possibly or on certain conditions, go away or stop offering money to players.

 

Its not that there will be a fixed amount of money in circulation, but that they'll actively monitor the economy and standard flow of currency.

 

Orgs that try to destabilize things and destroy the overall economy will become the bane of everyone. It wont be possible to horde 90% of the game money even if youre a super super villain, but just assuming some organisation gets close, theyll be looted, sacked, and pillaged by countless hordes of people. And no number of mercenaries will save them from round the clock assaults from peasants and commies, as that'll be what they turn everyone into.

 

A good game econ has a way for money to flow in, and a way for it to flow out. If the analogy is a sink, then the faucet is where money comes in, the drain is where money flows out, but then theres also another part called a overflow pipe that prevents a sink from going above a certain level.

 

As people quit and become inactive, NPC's increase how much theyll offer you for 100 resource of Iron, because money has technically escaped through the drain. It may still exist, but its inactive and not being traded regularly.

 

If lets say, a large number of players suddenly turn in resources all at once and the water level rapidly rises, the price of goods on the market goes up because people have more money. The NPC's can have a credits to resource system. Nobody would ever buy Iron for 1500 credits, if they can buy it for 1200 from an NPC, unless theyre out on the fringe of civilization and have no way to get resources from the Novark to where they're at.

 

So if the money goes over a certain level, the automatic systems in place will help deter inflation. and Likewise if the levels become to low, NQ will crank up the faucet and pour more money in.

No one person, org, alliance, collective, or force in the game will be able to control what NQ does.

 TRANSLATION : 

 

"Ni Hao, chinese gold farmers.

 

For years you ached to have a global gold presence, with having to hire agents in different places, for different servers. Now, the game, DUAL Universe, is offering you, an unprecedented opportunity, to make more money, for less of a cost.

 

The Devs in DUAL Universe, wanted to have a fixed inflation by adding money in circulation and then removing the bots. I , Neopolitan, had a better idea.

 

Since the Arkships will have surroundings that heal, materials also will heal. The market bots, as JC Baillie stated, will be buying low grade maeterials (like the ones found around the Arkship). By asking for a perpetual presence of the bots, I, Neopolitan, ask for Gold Farmers, to have 99% presence on the market.

 

Ni hao, happy plowing of the land. "

 

 

 

 

Now that I pointed out the ridiculous, let's get down to some harsh realities.

 

1) Trial accounts, increase the gold in the market.

 

2) Deflatory inflation = When people start going off-line forever and the deflatory value hits in. You won't stop that no matter how much money you want NQ to hose you with.

 

3) The fact people don't understand how Supply & Demand Works . You really want THOSE kind of hazelnuts to try and crack inflation? People will whine "NOOT ENUFFZ MUNEYZ, GIB ME BILLUNZ".

 

4) Inflation provides opportunists like me with the same benefit the Federal Reserve provides banks with. The ability to scfrew new players even MORE and collapse the market under its own weight.

 

5) The fact that inflation causes "bubbles". You know? The Great Depression? Guess what caused it. Yup, inflation. 2008 crisis. You guessed it, inflation and mortgages. That bubble will cause immense amounts of frustration when people will try and sell something at a certain price, only to realise they sold it a half of the price, because the chinese farmers printed 10,000,000,000 more money in circulation that day. 

 

6) A player-driven economy cannot be driven by NovaQuark. It goes against the nature of the game. And of course, the price of DAC will shkyrocket, to the point an outside person in 5 years after launch that never played the game will hear "I can get 10,000,000,000,000,000 SpaceDollarions for A DAC that costs 15 bucks? Oh my god, this game is so pay-to-win" and in reality, those 10 quintillions are like the price tag of a bicycle in-game. 

 

7) You will NEVER outrice the chinese gold farmers. Never. DAC = pointless.

 

 

 

 

But hey, what do I know about economics. Or NQ, who base their game around DACs having a certain value across the in-game markets.

 

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Economy require permament money supply. Yes, it must not be so huge as in WoW, it can be balanced very easy. As exampe, NQ has counter of active money, as soon circulation of money drops down (average on total players amount), NPCs get limited amount of money to fill up the gap.

 

WoW's issue is that, they do not have enough money remove from game (repair and tax on auction mainly). But income from farming is HUGE. This is massive disbalance, but they need it to force some players go forward in updates.

 

If DU economy will be closed and won't have any money remove, it will make pain in ass for DevTeam.

1. Amount of players (more players, more money need)

- Hardly. More players = more jobs taken care of by more organisations

 

 

2. Amount of players who left the game (more leaver with money, more money need)

- Hardly, the economy adjusts.

 

3. Amount of money in treasures (not 1 org, but all players) (more money in hold, more money need)

[Citation needed] You are assuming the game has treasure chests... why would alien worlds... that humanity never went to... have treasure chests.

 

4. Long time play, demand grows only (as bigger projects and research level, as more money economy need).

-That's the kind of thing an economics peasant would say. You understand zero things when it comes to the circulation of money.

 

That is only 4 factors which require money emission.

-Actually, it's only one factor, it's similar to children asking "why there can't be world peace?".

 

If it won't happens:

1. Every player won't have enough money (100 players with 100g = 1:1, 10'000 with 100g = 1:0,01)

Yes, that's called a realistic economy. This is not Communism Simulator Online. Greed is good and I will enjoy driving you in particular poor.

 

2. Total amount of money going down. (If every leaver has 1g in pocket, 10 leavers remove 10g, 1'000 leavers removè 1'000g)

- This can only happen if NQ keeps generating money perpetually, you are argueing against yourself.

 

 

3. Similar as No3. But it can grow more and more.

- Are you argueing against inflation? Who's the one talking to us right now? I demand to talk to the spirit typing this post.

 

4. If my demand in early game is 100g, in late game it could be 100'000g (bigger ships as simple example).

- Your 100,000 G in late game, will be worth 100 G if it was X time back before the inflation. You clearly, have zero understanding of economy. Go get a 10,000,000 (insert african nation dollar here). I guess it must worth much... oh wait, it's only 1 euro.

 

So with fixed amount of money (NOC removed, no emissions) economy would have troubles very soon, but hopefully it will be easy tested in Alpha.

 

Game require money remove.

What are you even talking by this point? A fixed amount in circulation won't need emissions and even so, if you spent an ounce of effort to to look up DevBlogs, you would have known Arkification tokens are highly expected to be bought for in-game cash by the Arkship, at a very high price, that can make sure money find their way back to new players.

 

Why? That is balance process. If Dev can see average money use and make emissions, there must be process which will stop:

1. Treasures unlock (massive money increase, need to stop emissions)

- [Citation Needed] Provide links. Are you sure you understand what the game is about?

 

2. Reduction of player rotation (less leavers, less new players)

- I once had a jamaican pizza in Amsterdam, it had, let's say "spices" in it, and me and the guys were like, hammered and laughing like crazy.

 

Why am I saying this? It's as relevant as what you stated.

 

So it would looks like:

-Total amount of money (active money) goes down (taxes, some parts could be bought from NPCs only)

- Actually, money get more value.

 

-NQ add amount of gold to NPCs

That's not how reintroducing money works. And where're the logical steps of your arguement? Oh wait, you had none to begin with, nevermind.

 

-Something happened, orgs open treasures, more money on market

[Citation Needed] Provide link to "Trasure Chest" statement by the devs or quit lying.

 

-NQ do not make emissions, money start go out from game (tax, components, other)

Player made taxes bring money from one player's pocket, to another player's pocket. You seem to think this is the wow Auction House market, which obviously, you are wrong.

 

-Progress going forward (overall prices going up, NQ need to have counter), demand is growing

Dear, if progress was measured in inflation, my home country of Greece was the richest economy in the European Monetary Union. Guess what's wrong with that statement of yours.

 

-NQ add amount of gold to NPCs

 

Overall, prices display inflation and deflation, both are bad for economy. So NQ need to have regulator. As in real life, healthy economy has ~1% of inflation, that is progress demand increase (in basic words).

Hey proletariat comrade, welcome to the west, we got free market, no regulators needed.

 

Players can not balance economy without emissions and non-stopable money remove from the game. I hope NQ has somebody who understand economy very well. Otherwise we will learn it all together =)))

 

Thanks,

Archonious

 

Lucky for you, some people in the community actually know how to spreadsheet the plans. It's what the Devs count on, for guys like me and more in the communit, to create a dynamic and competitive economy.

 

 

You, are a customer to US, since you, don't know jack of how economics work.

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