Search the Community

My question is as follows; How in the Dual Universe world, will Quanta(Currency) be continuously inserted in order to simulate a real working economy? It's been mentioned by the developers that they hope to remove all NPC trade (Which I think is great) but I don't understand how it's possible to do that when an economy needs a regulated injection of cash currency in order to regulate inflation. The basics of economics dictate that as more money enters a economy, the less value the currency retains (The very basic definition). In modern day, banks usually regulate currency injection on behalf of government treasuries, so who will do it in Dual Universe? The reason I ask is because without currency injection at a regulated pace, there can only be a certain amount of total money after the NPC's are removed. For example if they remove the NPC's and it's been six months, and all the players in the world have traded 20 billion Quanta worth of goods, then there can only ever be 20 billion Quanta in the world. Obviously this is a problem because it will make prices rise ridiculously high, especially if they money is spread thin between players.

Welcome to Perdere! Who are we? We are a small organization built for mining and control over the economy. What is your plan. Perdere is planned to be one of the largest trading and mining empires in Dual Universe. Although we need YOUR help to get there. We have a discord where we will be planning more in-depth ideas and would love feedback from our members. Everyone is included! Although we don't have a detailed plan yet we will focus on harvesting, mining and scavaging to get our base resources in the game. Weekly raids are also an idea that has been thrown around. If we find a weak and vulnerable enemy, we will attack as we are not a complete PvE organization. What sets you apart? We are fully dedicated to our project. We have our own discord server which will be the hub for all trading that takes place in the game. We are currently working on a discord bot that will have its own currency that users can earn by being active in Discord. This functions as a way we can reward our active members with in-game goodies when the game comes out and also determine the hierarchy of management. AKA The more active you are, the more likely you are to be placed at a higher level of management and earn more. Exchange? How does that work? Well, we will be setting up a way for users to contact each other. It will be a fully P2P system, a user will post a request to buy or sell currency when two users match on a price the bot will automatically send both users a PM saying that a match has been found for their request to trade. Setting up a way for users to trade to a more, out of game 'currency' while not having to directly trade in game (sending the bots currency to one another as a form of value). Like any currency the value of it will go up and down, so choose wisely to invest or divest! Sounds great, how do I join? You can join our organization by making a request here https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/perdere-mining or by joining our discord here https://discord.me/perdere (Note you will still have to join the organization here as well) If you have any questions or comments feel free to leave them below!

So we know that we'll mine resources of various kinds... and build things... and some of those things will be ships which need fuel. Will the materials be ores that need to be refined at some sort of refinery to be made into the finished fine materials used for building... or into the fuel or fuels used by various ships engines? I think it'd add another layer to the economy if miners sold to refineries ... and refineries had to be large constructs... with storage for their product which could then be sold to builders and explorers and shippers. Also has any thought been given to power generation to power lights... or the hypothetical refinery?

Hello Guys, please excuse my poor english, but i will try it to explain. Do not implement an universe wide currency made by the administration. Give each organisation the possibilety to create a own crypto currency. but make it expensiv to launch. let them choose the parameters of the crypto currency, how many units should be exist in which time and how much energy take the production... now create a universe wide online market where you can exchange every currency instant. the material trade market owners can now choose which currency they accept. at least there will be just a few stabil currency with huge organisations in the background. If you implement this idea there will be more room for politics and economy dependencies. In german: Implementiert nicht eine unviersumsweite Währung welche von der Administration eingeführt wurde. Gebt jeder organisation die möglichkeit eine eigene Crypto Währung zu erschaffen. Diese zu starten soll aber kostspielig sein. Lasst sie alle möglichen parameter dieser cryptowährung aussuchen, wie viele geldeinheiten sollen existieren und in welcher zeit anwachen und und und aber lasst die production der währung geld kosten. Nun brauchen wir einen unversumsweiten online markt wo man die cryptowährungen in echtzeit tauschen kann und angebote abgeben kann. Die Besitzer der Rohstoffmärkte sollen die Währung auswählen können, die sie am markt akzeptieren. am ende bleiben nur ein paar stabile währungen übrig mit mächtigen organisationen im hintergrund. Dies würde politik und ökonomie weiter intensivieren.

Okay, so this idea hit me the other day and it is not fully fleshed out, but I think it is a good start of something. First, here are a few assumptions: There is a finite amount of each material to be mined in a given system. Systems will be depleted over time. When a ship is destroyed or a person is killed some material is "lost" forever, while some can be salvaged/reclaimed. The economy needs some sinks and faucets in order to prevent excessive inflation or deflation over time. Now, my idea to address some of this. Basically, when ships are destroyed or people are killed and some of the material is "lost" the amount can get added to a system-wide tally. Material sold to the Market Bots that JC mentioned would also get added to this tally. The game could then pull from this tally to generate material asteroids in deserted parts of the system which could be scanned down and mined, thus restoring the resources to circulation and conserving the mass. These materials could then be used or sold to market bots again, bringing currency into the game. In addition to preserving mass and providing a currency faucet, this would provide some basic "PvE" content and help prevent systems from becoming depleted. To provide a currency sink to counter the currency faucet: the market bots could also sell the materials directly from the tally but for a fairly high price relative to what they buy it for.

Hey everyone! Before I begin, wanted to express my apologies if this is mentioned. I did attempt to sift through the idea box. I think it would be great if the sensor info about the surrounding star systems and other astrological bodies that we would see in our personal navigation (ship, tool, HUD, console, whatever the case will be) Were to be all unknown. This would allow people to trade star maps, allow for secret routes, (think star wars, the hyperspace routes) one could make a rather interesting and profitable living exploring various ftl routes, andd it would make it feel more real. This is obviously a rather rough draft if the idea, but I feel the fundamentals are there for someone to expand on it if so inclined ^^

As I currently understand it, Stargates will be usable based on having the proper permissions or something along the lines of a key. The Stargate owner can collect fees when people use the gate. This is a nice system; it's simple, but I think it can be easily expanded. I think a system that can be based on the mass of the ship will allow for more emergent gameplay around stargates. People could of course choose to just have a flat rate, if that is what they prefer. I propose three additions: The ability to charge a fee for using the stargate based on the mass of the ship. The ability to set different tiers of mass that have different tax rates. The ability to crate different "keys" or permission levels that have different tax settings. I will now go into more detail why I think this is good system and why it should be very easy to implement. First, taxes based on mass: why? Well, it's more fair. Why should someone who is flying a tiny shuttle pay the same fees as a space trucker who is hauling millions of kilograms of goods? How do you balance the two if you can only charge a flat tax? A mass tax helps solve that. If you charge one Quanta per 10 kilos and the shuttle is 1000kg, then that person pays 100 Quanta whereas the massive freighter of, say, 10,000,000kg pays a million Quanta. The freighter can easily afford a larger sum because it will make money off of the cargo it is carrying and it is just a cost of doing business. The pilot of the smaller ship will be happy because their fees will be low, since they don't have to pay some middle ground, one size fits all rate. The stargate owner is happy because it let's them collect more taxes overall while still remaining competitive. How difficult would this be to implement? It shouldn't be too hard based on what we know. NQ have indicated that ship and cargo mass will be taken into consideration by the physics engine, so they data already exists and all that has to be done is some basic multiplication. The plus side of this is that since cargo is also already accounted for, an empty cargo ship pays less fees than one that is fully loaded Mass tiers, this is where it really starts to get interesting. Users should be able to set "tiers" of mass that have different rates between them. For example, perhaps the rate for ships between 0kg - 10,000kg is 0.1 Quanta per kg, 10,001kg - 50,000kg is 0.5 Quanta per kg, and 50,001kg and up is 1 Quanta per kg. In this way, the large ships get the more they have to pay. Consider three ships: Ship 1 is 5,000kg and pays 500 Quanta. Ship 2 is 30,000kg and pays 15,000 Quanta. Ship 3 is 120,000kg and pays 120,000 Quanta. Why would you want to do this? To dissuade larger ships either for market reasons or military reasons. Or perhaps there is the theory that the bigger the ship, the more money the owner has to burn. That's up to the gate owner, but the true power of the mass tiers comes out with the third point. Different keys. The tax settings should be tied to each key and not to the gate itself, allowing for different keys with different settings for different people. There are many reasons that people travel and this would allow the fee system to be better suited for each person. I will give an example. Perhaps someone is coming to tour an empire, or apply for a job or whatever, and they need to get around but don't want to spend a ton on fees. Naturally, the people who live in the region don't want somebody who may not be fully trusted dumping a ton of goods on the market to compete with local businesses or bringing in a large battleship and causing trouble, so the tourist is given a key designed to meet these needs. The key could be set so each use under 2,000kg is only 20 Quanta but over 2,000kg it's 20 Quanta per kg. So if that tourist tries to bring in a 20,000kg freighter they are going to be smacked with a 400,000 Quanta fee. More taxes for the gate owner and it strongly discourages that tourist from bringing in larger ships or a lot of cargo. It's emergent and not set in stone. You could also raise the price even further to really discourage large ships. Maybe over 10,000kg it's 500 Quanta per kg! That's 10,000,000 Quanta for that same 20,000kg freighter! Good luck turning a profit on that. So long as that tourist follows the guidelines of their key, they can avoid paying much in fees, but if they try to do stuff that they are not supposed to they will pay the price, literally.

Hello! I'd like to discuss what you envisage our industrial areas would look like. That question does imply there will be industrial areas, which is only natural when the primary occupation and game element at the start is gathering resources and build things. An industrial area simply is a natural phenomena when big projects are set up. The bigger the project, the more logistics, more storage, more mineral processing. All in all, Novaquark can -say- large scale industrialisation isn't going to be part of the game... but ya'll know better. When the chance is there for mass production, the chance will be taken. So without any further a do, lets discuss. With the current game mechanics and game mechanics planned ahead, how do you envisage an industrial area will look like?

Link: BLADESIN MERCENARY CORPORATION A Mercenary Corporation with one purpose: the Art of War. We exist simply to facilitate an honorable way to do battle on all fronts. We always abide by three values: Duty -To our comrades -To ourselves -To War Honor -If it makes you question your value, don’t do it -If others question their path, inspire them -Make others proud to have met you Dedication -Take the time to do the job well -Put it all on the line -Be proud of the profession Introduction video We are mercenaries but we do not destroy without cause, we work for the ones who we deem worthy, and the payment is always fair. If we find someone worthy of the honor we will invite them to join, no matter from where they originate. The duty of any member is to train, learn and experience all they can about war, to further develop the Art of Bladesin through it. This will always be done with honor and respect, and with complete dedication to the Art of War. Currently working on: -Creating a 24/7 active organisation, -Bladesin Corps need leaders: 5 Grand Masters (1 from each continent), As well as Directors for the divisions of Logistics, Mining and Trade -At least 4 regular members from each continent. New associates: DICE We will also be joining the Alioth Aerospace Expo! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BMC Guidelines: - A Bladesinner should at all times develop oneself and aim to become more powerful, but at the same time view the Corps as oneself, and aim to develop it the same way one develop oneself. If doubts arise as to how this is accomplished, seek guidance in the higher ranks. - If you dedicate yourself to War, you dedicate yourself to the Bladesin Corps. - Unless the Corps is officially taking a job that entails it, a Bladesinner should stay out of the business of Good vs Evil and Right or Wrong, though the Bladesinner's own nature should not be denied or suppressed. Instead a Bladesinner should be true to their personality, using their own personal dispositions to make themselves more powerful. - We demand respect from you. Disrespect and arrogance can gravely hurt you and your allies. --------------------------------- Rules --------------------------------- 1. you may never do anything to damage the reputation of the Bladesin Corps or any of its members. This includes acting in a way that reflects badly on BMC, like bullying, piracy, and other actions that does not follow our guidelines and lead words. Rulebreakers will be Exiled. 2. A Bladesinner may never, ever kill or seriously hurt another Bladesinner, either directly or indirectly, The only time this is ignored is during Training sessions. Breaking this rule results in being Exiled. 3. The Corps position on good and evil is neutral, members who are good or evil are accepted either way, but Honour, Duty and Dedication is always top priorities, if we have a rampager that think it is fun to wipe out entire cities to take out one target and in the process kills millions of non combatant civilians that in no way have anything to do with the battle at hand, he breaks this Rule of Alignment, sure be evil, but with Honor, Duty and Dedication. And on the other hand, if we have a hero type player that because of him being good choose to take a path that endangers the success of his or hers mission, he or she has also broken the Rule of Alignment. The rulebreakers are Exiled. (If you see anyone breaking any of these rules, screenshot everything and send to leadership so we can handle it. If it includes destruction of property, you will be compensated.) SALARY FOR BMC MEMBERS: The first few months BMC will keep a majority of the revenue to build up the org. Thats why 40% of the revenue is divided between the BMC members that carried out the mission. When we get to the point where we have gotten off the ground and start doing bigger jobs, we will divide a larger part to the BMC members who carried out the mission, specifics will come when we know how much. If any members want to use BMC resources and personnel to build something and sell, 25% of the revenue will go to BMC for using its resources to create and distribute it. A specific contract will be drawn up for such occasions. Ranks system Troop Ranks (all ranks except Stepper will include more privileges, as well as responsibilities): ----------------- Stepper: Entry rank, pass application --------- Weapons Apprentice: Went through Basic Training, is now Equipped with BMC standard gear. Survived 3 missions that were completed --------- Bladesin Warrior: Went through Advanced training Completed at least 20 missions, 5 of those must be Solo Missions Bladesin Creator: Went through Basic Training, is now equipped with BMC standard gear. Went through Basic Utilities Training for Specialisation (chosen division) ----------- Officer ranks (these ranks are based on recommendation from Commaning Officers and must be given by a Grandmaster or Director): ---------- Guardian: Squad leader for Infantry Troops Hunter: Squad leader for Navy Sinner: Team Leader for Utilities Team ----- Master Guardian: Tactical leader and coordinator for several Squads, plans mission execution Master Hunter: Tactical leader and coordinator for several Squads, plans mission execution Master Sinner: Coordinates several Utilities Teams to streamline and raise efficiency for projects ----- Bladesin Masters: Commands a geographical section of BMC, all projects and missions, in a solar system for example There are always two Masters for every section, one Utilities and one Military (Will be implemented when relevant) ----- Leadership ranks (all except Founder is equal and works as a council): ----- Grandmaster: Commands the combined armed forces of the BMC with the other Grandmasters BMC Aims to have at least 5 GMs at all times Director of Crafting and Science: Oversees, plans and ensures high quality execution of all construction and research projects within BMC Director of Mining: Controller of all mining operations owned and done by BMC Director of Communications: Is in charge of all marketing, diplomacy and recruitment within BMC Director of Trade: Is in charge of buying all necessary resources for BMC and selling all of the unnecessary ones and commercial constructs and such Director of Logistics: In charge of making sure all resources equipment and ships are where they are needed, for constructions, repairs, missions and so forth Founder: The big Boss, Jack Blade, in charge of overall strategies, corporation wide changes, executive orders, Leadership oversight, and have final say in all matters concerning BMC

Give legates the power to place buy/sell offers on behalf of an orgization, where sale money and purchase money is taken from the organization's money stores. This way trusted sellers may include a organization as a whole.

Now this is a "What if?" situation since I'm not exactly sure how the economy system would fully work so here goes. So, Part 1. What if the way to earn money is to trade resources in for credits using game generated missions. For example: get XXXX amount of wood for XXXX credits. Have it for renewable resources so we don't just feed the game resources that don't regenerate . Part 2. Give the organizations the ability to create a Mission Board (of some kind), And allow them to set taxes for it (with some limit of course). Say organization A has 10% tax on the credit rewards from it's Mission board. so people can generate money for their organization. And allow the organization to set taxes for it's members and non-members separately. Part 3. Give members of the organization the ability to post their own missions for credit rewards on the mission board. And give the organization the ability to tax the rewards for that as well. The tax is optional of course depending on the organization. Part 4. Allow the organization itself to post missions for credit rewards with the funds being deducted from it's "Guild Bank". Part 5. Have all the mission boards from a certain organization linked together and give the option for the user/organization created missions for them to be local to the board or publicly shared on the organization's mission board network. Part 6. Now this is optional, add a global mission browser for all players to see the missions list and locations of the boards to take the missions from. Part 7. The physical reward part is simple. People who post missions can claim their mission from the board they posted the mission from, the board can have an inventory for each player to house the "asked for" in the mission which they can "Loot" and the organization can have a bigger one (for organization posted missions). Part 8. Have a board at the arkship spawn point at the start with limited missions just to start people off. And have the boards created by the organizations give better missions with better rewards. Now this is just a fantasy i had of an organizational driven economy with an organization creating towns, hubs, and outposts to further grow and generate revenue for itself and it's members. I'm not very good at explaining ideas in plain words so please pardon the confusing descriptions. (This is not meant to replace an in-game market, it's just a way to generate credits)

I know that NQ have been very informative on how markets will work, and how products are bought and sold, however, has there been any thought or information thrown around about the actual financial system? How will the financial system run - similarly to real life? What would be the role of banks (if they even existed as the game mechanics allowed)? What about loans, or investments, to people who don't have the funds to undertake large projects. Could banks store people's money (or would that even be necessary)? What about groups or companies that could go public, and have people buy stakes in them in order to raise funds, just as in real life? I just figured this was all food for thought as it doesn't seem to be something that's been explored yet.

There are two kinds of subscriptions which I can think of off the top of my head. Monthly subscriptions and hourly subscriptions. The difference is as follows. Monthly subscriptions last for a duration of months after their activation and constantly count down regardless of whether or not the player is online. Hourly subscriptions pay directly for the hours a player can be online, which can be used whenever the player wishes, meaning that you are directly paying for the time you are online. The inclusion of both would be very beneficial for creating freedom in choice for purchasing time to play the game. The major difference is that monthly is often cheaper, but doesn't account for players who rarely get on or who get on extremely often, resulting in a less predictable load on the servers. With the hourly system, players directly pay for the time they will be using up server resources, which is more precise and can be saved for when they want to play. As someone who often plays something a lot but in short bursts, I would prefer the hourly subscription.

[Whoops. Accidental duplicate post. Please respond to the other one.] Mod, can you delete please?

Some musing on stargates brings up some questions: Will the builder of a stargate be able to charge a toll for its use? If not, how would they amortize the cost? Will a stargate have a (digital) key, so only authorized users can use it? Will the owner have to have an armada patrolling to stop unauthorized use? If I send a probe from Earth to Mars (or other pair of planets in the same system) will I be able to build a stargate between them? This could be very profitable for fast, easy trade if a use fee can be charged. Or is there a one stargate per system limit?

There have been some topics around this area, particularly with building ships, but I feel that the this is a concept valid for the entire game. In a huge civilization-building, player-interactions-driven game, I feel that having people skilled in just certain areas will eventually lead to a more enjoyable experience for players. And this is something that many people may disagree with upon first hearing it, but find in the long run that they think it works really well. Or maybe they'll hate it! I want to share my opinion on it though, and I ask that those reading, who may think it's stupid, give it a chance. Also remember that there are two sides to this, neither are correct, and both are valid. It's just opinion based. If anyone is familiar with the game series LittleBigPlanet, the first and second iterations for the PS3 played a huge role in a season of my life. They were the main games I played for months, and I had a friend who was into it as I was. Anyway if you don't know the game, it's not important. Basically, you use some basic tools to make little minigame-ish things (I'll refer to them as levels). Anyway, in the first game, there were a few levels and creators that stood out significantly from all the rest, because they were fantastic (anyone that knows the name "Lockstitch" off the top of their head is a freaking awesome person). Me and my friend, we knew exactly what tools were available, and what you could and "couldn't" do. But some few levels stood out to us because, as people who knew the game inside and out, we had no clue how they some of these things were accomplished. A fair few levels were outstanding and amazing due to their mechanics and visuals. When LittleBigPlanet 2 arrived, there were tons and tons of new tools added. These were fun and great to be sure, but they made everything that made the old levels special, not special. Because, all of the fantastic things that had been done before (in the first game) were now basic and easy because there were tools to do them (in the second game). This made a lot of great content a lot more common. Which of course was a good thing. And there were certainly levels that still pushed the boundaries. But overall, by making cool and unique things easy, it made great content a lot more common and thereby a lot less special. If Dual Universe makes building easy, and mining easy, and combat easy, and exploration easy... Well, then there are going to be lots of amazing ships, and lots of miners, and lots of warriors and lots of explorers. You may say, "that sounds great!" But, remember my exceedingly dramatic and emotional story. When you make it easy, it stops being special. In a game like Dual Universe, where player interactions and jobs and organizations are such a key factor, it shouldn't be easy to do anything. It shouldn't be easy to switch from a being an efficient miner working for a large corporation to a stupendous explorer finding rare resources on hostile worlds at the edge of the known galaxy. Sure, you can switch job titles and do whatever you want whenever you want, because it's a game! I'm just saying you shouldn't be able to switch from being outstanding at one thing, to suddenly outstanding at another. This allows individuals the opportunity to stand out, and be known for something. "Hey he's that guy that makes that line of super efficient yet powerful ships. I don't know how he comes up with that stuff." "What, you want to send Xx_M8_SLAYR_xX to go hunting for that anomaly? He's an architect, someone else will find it way sooner!" If someone wants to be known for something, then they go for that something and only that and they end up being great at it, and known for it. Lots of people will choose to not do this, which allows the few that do to stand out. I can't really say much else that I haven't said already. I believe I've gotten my point across. Regarding designing ships or stations, it's easier to see how an individual could be better at it than most others. Mining or exploration expertise could be accomplished, not just by having better equipment or skills, but also by there being hidden techniques that people just have to learn by doing it. Thank you for reading and please try and be civil in your response, as, once again, both opinions are valid! When everyone's special, no one is... And if you're good at something, never do it for free!

Would a stock market analogue work in a game like this? In the real world, it always seemed to me like stocks are only worth anything to someone because everyone else wants them. That's how it always seemed to me anyway, I've never been big into the stock market. However, in the game, what with organizations and how big a role it seems they'll play along with player-driven content, I feel like a stock market system, albeit on a small scale, could be something that would work in Dual Universe. I could also see it NOT working of course, like someone who owns tons of stock just stops playing. Or, no one is ever really interested in it and it becomes a mechanic no one pays attention to. I feel like it could go either way but I'm rather unfamiliar with the real stock market. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Lets say I make an awesome ship and I sell it on the market for a certain amount. What's to stop some guy from buying it, saving it as his own blueprint, then selling it and making tons more currency because he is able to get more attention drawn towards it? Also, whats to stop someone from just saving a ship or construct I'm working on as a blueprint? I was thinking along the lines of constructs being owner specific, even if created from blueprints; so the first person to place a block for a construct permanently owns it and all copies of it. The only problem with that is, what if I take a piece of crap ship and make it 100 times better? Then I can't make a blueprint from it. I was also thinking there could be an "ownership block", where whoever places it on a construct owns that construct permanently. But then that could simply be broken and replaced by someone else to call the ship theirs.

This is something common in regular multiplayer games but I feel in a game with crafting, it can become somewhat of an issue. What I'm suggesting is to not make a 'best version' of anything. What I mean is, since most items will be craftable, don't make there be that one greatest version that everyone aspires for. A standard model for crafting games is starting with the lowest tier, with each upgrade above that increasing all of it's stats, to the point where at some point you get the ultimate form of that item. You hear it all the times in games; people say they have "max everything". Whether it be full diamond armor and tool set, a 48 slot ship, or the 'black hole gun', they go for it as an end goal and once they reach it, they have nothing left to do. I think it is important for a game like this to avoid that, and to do so I suggest everything has at least two different stats which are somewhat inversely proportional to each other. This is of course not a new idea; racing games see cars with fast speed and bad handling (and vice versa), multiplayer games have different weapons that all have varying amounts of different stats, but none that stands out as better than the other. It's just preference and application. And this by no means is a suggestion only for weapons! They're just a good example. I am suggesting this for all types of objects and items; mining equipment, scanners and communication equipment, ore refining equipment, engines, reactors, etc. All of these objects, if given even just two stats that cannot simultaneously be maxed out, ensures that there will always be diversification and a rich economy. What this does is: 1) Take away an end-game goal for people. Many might aim for the top-tier items and, upon obtaining those, be at a loss for what to do next and grow bored. 2) Add growth and variety to the economy. This is what we don't want, and I can see it now... "Max stats" a search term in the ship store, and the most popular ships and structures (the only ones people are interested in) are those that contain the top-tier of everything. 3) Add strategy to factions of any and every size and skill level. No faction can ever reach the point of being as good as they can be, because there are always different ways to use different items. 4) Basically, ensure that no one can ever be the best. (Sorry Ash) I think it is important, if it is agreed upon, that this become implemented at the beginning of the games life. Because if it is not, it might get very difficult to implement later on. What are some thoughts of yours?

When i saw the game trailer, i got pretty excited for the city that is seen in the end, but then i started thinking, why would anyone actually build something like that? If a player wants a base in a planet, he could have used all those resources on one big, easy to defend bunker. But then i also started thinking, maybe they could produce money? It would be hard to balance, but it would add in my opinion a lot more strategy to the game. The planets that are fertile and have a breathable atmosphere would be much more contested, if cities took a lot of resources and time to build, they would of course be fought over. To prevent snowballing, the cities should produce very little in the way of money, and by that i mean something like 0.01 credits/building in 10h. And for balance and realism, they could require stuff like food, clean water, etc, etc... But also, the solar systems near the starting spawn are going to get mined dry. It might take some time, but it will happen. If the planets had cities that took ALOT of effort and material to build, and they provided a stable income, then the center, even dry of resources would be a center of warring factions trying to get their hands on the stable income. TLDR: cities could produce money, but require correct types of planets, they could require resources and keep areas that are mined dry of resources relevant through the game.

will the markets for each planet be local to that planets or will it be global to the entire shard? personally I would like a local economy, this would add a new element of bargain hunting to the game

This is kind of a big idea... but it's something I've wanted to see inside of a game for a long long time. Just this idea being implemented would bring me and many players like me to Dual Universe and keep me playing forever. It's important to note that when I say crafting system, I mean the system used to manufacture things such as armor, weapons, clothing, furniture, house decor, maybe even computers and technology. This would also include ship-based technologies such as engines, turrets, weapons, hallways, possibly even rockets and missiles and different types of ammo. Players love customization. Personally, I love to be able to create a completely unique look that is totally my own. The crafting system in other games is pretty boring. You level up your crafting skill until you get to a point where you can craft the next level of gear etc etc. All of the gear is pre-defined models that were loaded in to the game by the devs. It's completely repetitive and extremely boring. What I would like to see instead is this: 1) Do away with crafting levels. That shit sucks. Make it so that any player can create anything they want to at any time. 2) Do away with pre-defined models. I'm tired of seeing every single person using the exact same armor as every other person. That's not immersive. That's boring. Instead, implement modular models with several different options to create a unique look with a maximum level of customization. 3) Put the customization in the hands of the players. Make the models that players create into something that anyone can use. The Crafting Process Phase 1: The process would start with a blueprint. This is where the players design the object in question. It could be pulled up in a separate window with several options for the player to select whatever it is that they would like to create. Step 1: Select the category of item. Some items may have sub-categories. For example, weapons may have sub-categories of rifles, snipers, heavy weapons, or sidearms. Clothes might have sub categories of Shirt, Pants, Shoes, Jacket, Hat, underclothes, etc. A very basic model of the item would appear. With it would come sliders to adjust proportions, material types, colors, etc. A modular design would allow for added attachments. Step 2: Select and customize attachments On a weapon, this could include different barrels, various clip sizes, length of stock and grip, caliber, different action chambers to allow for semi-auto or automatic modes, etc. Each of these attachments could affect how the weapon performs. Armor attachments could create a specific unique look. Larger sets of armor could be designed with more protection in mind but detract from maneuverability. Smaller lighter armor sets would offer the opposite. The more attachments that are added, the heavier the armor may become. They could come with optics, helmets, various measures of technology, oxygen systems for non-atmospheric operations, magnetic boots for low gravity situations, pneumatic strength assistance, etc. Clothing attachments might include sleeves, buttons, zippers, designs (such as stripes, circles whatever), etc. Step 3: Publish Blueprint. A published blueprint will be ready to build. It will have a bill of materials required to build the object that the player has designed. Different attachments might add different materials required and bring up the cost of the item. A higher cost would effectively promote lower levels of sophistication in mass-production. Phase 2: Now that you have your published blueprint, you must take it to a manufacturing facility. Large organizations could use the blueprint, and install it into a factory to have the item mass-manufactured. They would gather the resources required to manufacture the item and then produce them. Individual players and independent designers could pay organizations which own factories to build their designs and blueprints. Alternatively, large organizations can pay designers to create a nice blueprint for them. Designers could become famous and well sought-after to design things for large companies. Phase 3: Sell your items on the market. Watch them spread into the world. Watch them be stolen or destroyed and end up in the hands of people they were never intended to reach. Watch your designs become the most desirable items in all corners of the galaxy. Watch as entire organizations commission designs for armor, weapons, uniforms, drills, engines, turrets, computers, furniture, and so much more so that their people could be well equipped and fashionable. This is the kind of game that I would play.

The following link is to a post about the economy by the user Alpha Team Member: https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/353-the-economy/ His/her post is much better than my own. Please go there if you are interested in the Economies of DU. Hello fellow Ark Survivors, It's come to my attention that since we are all going to be contributing to the economy in some way or fashion, and I worry for the sake of al of us. In MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft, currency can be acquired by completing quests, looting, and trading with other players (auction and barter). In the past, currency could also be acquired by micro transactions. This means that there is a potentially infinite amount of currency about the game world, which has led to global economic inflation. Dual Universe should not have to suffer with such an instance. All mentions of "economy" can refer to a factions economy or the economy between ALL players unless explicitly mentioned. On the basis of the starting areas (Arks): Quests given by the NPCs and completed by players should not have rewards, but rather these quests should be tutorials or tasks. The reward is in what the player completes. Trading NPCs at Ark stations should be based on the surroundings of the ark station. For example, the very first time an ark is put in, it has a base amount of resources, which it uses to trade with players. Say there are 3 small animal pelts in storage, the player would have to give something of equal value, the next player can perform the same process. Outside of the Arks, players would simply use the resources of the universe to trade, survive and build. As people expand and explore other parts of the virtually infinite universe, more resources are discovered and taken. This is rather alright, and the only struggle would the realistic enjoyment of preventing clans and guilds monopolizing resources, this is acceptable and personally preferable to any artificial limiters or changes. This means that the states of worlds would need to not regenerate minerals. Foliage and vegetation can regrow as that is sensible. Micro-transactions for in-game currency will destroy the entire economy very quickly. Players should not be able to use real-world currency to purchase any in-game item. Note that it is likely that the payment method for playing the game is subscription based with the option of using a token to pay for the month. The token should not be able to be bought with real money, the existence of the token could become disastrous as it has a real world value and is not limited. Instead, I propose that a fairly large (but constant) amount of these tokens be placed in the game world possibly first distributed by the ARKs (for a in-game price), then by players later on. Maybe as one token is used, a new one is placed in the world automatically to prevent their depletion. A constant amount of tokens should result with the same individual value before being altered by players' numbers. The point of all this is to avoid any possibility of inflated economy. The options are to do a credit system based on some global resource, or stick with pure resource trade. The concepts of a FULLY player driven economies, politics, and diplomatic relations are prized gems of Dual Universe. Lets do it right. TL;DR The economy is important and should not have the opportunity to inflate. Regards to NPCs (ARKs), Micro-transactions, and after-ark instances. Euclidius

Hi Everyone, This is my first post here, and like many new people here, I discovered Dual Universe through the E3 trailer this week. I'll go ahead and apologize ahead of time for this lengthy post. I originally came to the forums with questions about the Market system, how the economy would scale, what kind of features the market will provide, how the market system would be secured against counterfeiting (which in this case would be cheating, hacking, etc), if there would be competing currencies and if there would be a Real Market Trading (RMT) system put in place to allow people to profit from their gameplay in much the same way that Second Life or Project Entropia operate. For the most part, my questions were answered by simply reading around on this forum. So it's a nice feeling knowing that other people have the same concerns that I do. From what I've gathered, there will be no RMT system (aside from being able to pay for your subscription using an ingame tradeable item, like PLEX in Eve Online), and there will only be one universal currency (to keep things simple). Without getting into the details of the different types of markets that will be available, how they are created, how goods are moved, etc. (gameplay mechanics) , I'd like to focus this discussion more on the features that one might expect from a digital sandbox market (or markets), and how that can be accomplished securely from a technical perspective. Which leads me into Open-Transactions. My Background Full disclosure here, I was formerly a developer working on Open-Transactions, however I'm not currently involved the project anymore. I contributed about ~200k lines of C++ to the project over 3 years, but I don't measure success in terms of lines of code, I just want to be as transparent as possible. I originally became involved in the project due to my interest in trading digital currencies through exchanges like MtGox or BTC-E, and my interest in bringing those types of technologies into a market that would naturally embrace them, Video Games. To be clear however, I'm not advocating in any way through this post that Dual Universe adopt Bitcoin or any other Cryptocurrency. There are too many issues to consider before even taking on that task, and there's little benefit from doing it other than to have an easy avenue for RMT. None of this discussion has anything to do with Bitcoin other than they both use Cryptography to accomplish their goals. I don't profit in any way from Open-Transactions anymore, as I no longer work with any of the companies that use it. I have no stake in any of the companies currently using it either. I'm the Lead DevOps Engineer for the company I work for now, and OT has nothing to do with our products in any way, nor do I ever see it becoming relevant in my current day job. My only motivation in making this post is that I see a need that can be filled in a way that benefits both Novaquark and prospective players of Dual Universe. What is Open-Transactions? http://opentransactions.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page https://github.com/Open-Transactions/opentxs/ Open-Transactions is a financial digital contracting system (software library) that was original developed to allow for gold to be traded on an international federated digital market securely. It (and its forks) has been used in many ways, from handling mobile payments sent through the postal service for Tunisia, to being used as the market backend for OpenSim (an open source clone of Second Life). Right now there is even discussion taking place involving using it as a contracting platform for Texas's state gold depository (which is currently in development, with the end goal of establishing a state-backed currency). It is open source, written in C++, and was originally developed by cryptographer Chris Odom. If you don't want to read through all of this, you can get a feel for what it provides based on his own presentations here: Open-Transactions (or OT as I'll refer to it from here on) can be seen as "PGP for Money", or rather, a suite of encryption tools that come together to create a secure market platform suitable for virtual currencies (hence the emphasis on Bitcoin in many of the discussions about it). It is built on the principle of Ricardian Contracting, as outlined here: http://iang.org/papers/ricardian_contract.html To summarize for those that don't want to read that whole page: "A Ricardian Contract can be defined as a single document that is a) a contract offered by an issuer to holders, for a valuable right held by holders, and managed by the issuer, c) easily readable by people (like a contract on paper), d) readable by programs (parsable like a database), e) digitally signed, f) carries the keys and server information, and g) allied with a unique and secure identifier." - Ian Grigg Better summarized as, "The Ricardian contract is a means of tracking the liability of one party to another when selling goods to each other". It is also the core principal on which things such as OpenBazaar use to operate securely. Open-Transactions provides, what the developers like to call, censorship resistance. In that all of the features that were created for it follow the principle that an asset issuer (a bank, a game company, the post office, whoever), cannot modify the account balances of its users. Nor can an asset issuer prevent a user from being able to transfer ownership of their own assets to whomever they want. Hypothetically speaking, this means that if I were to have a bank account operated in this system, the bank would never be able to alter my balance (empty my account) without my explicit manual approval first. Or, in the case of a Bitcoin Exchange, an exchange wouldn't be able to steal my Bitcoins and disappear randomly one day. Because of the cryptographic proofs involved, there are also inherent protections in place for the asset issuers as well. Such as the inability to counterfeit assets (cheating, hacking, duping, etc. in terms of Dual Universe), or users altering their own account balances fraudulently. No more money could be introduced into the economy than the issuer of that currency would allow. Whether that's (just throwing a name out there) 100 intergalactic credits, or 100 trillion. This doesn't necessarily require the use of a massive database storing all of those account details either, as those details are part of the digital contracting system that tie the whole platform together. To list just a few market features that OT provides: - Transfers: An atomic movement of funds from one account to a different account, like a bank account-to-account transfer. - Cheques A payment which is not deducted from the sender's account until the recipient claims it. - Vouchers: A payment which is deducted from the senders account at the time of creation. - Invoices: A payment request which the recipient can opt to pay from any of his accounts. - Cash: Anonymous cryptographic tokens which can be securely redeemed by the recipient without revealing the sender. - Market Offers: Open agreements to exchange a given quantity of one instrument type for a given quantity of another instrument type. - Smart Contracts: Customizable agreements between multiple parties, containing user-defined scripted clauses, hooks, and variables. - Bearer Securities (Bonds): The negotiable instruments created by Open-Transactions can be used as the basis for financial products such as loans. - Stocks What are the benefits? For Novaquark: - Leveraging Open-Transactions, Novaquark would be able to create a sandbox market platform that provides many real-world features that users might expect. - They would also be relying on a financial platform that is used in the real world for holding real assets (gold, silver, dollars, swiss francs, etc.), without having to develop one completely from scratch for virtual assets. This includes potentially over a billion dollars worth of gold bullion that the State of Texas may soon be repatriating. - OT is still under constant development from cryptographers worldwide, and Novaquark could see their market platform as more of an open-source shared library to interface with rather than a whole subsystem to develop independently. - If Novaquark ever decided to pursue RMT features, OT provides ways of making that work. Both on a technical and a regulatory level. - OT is completely free. If Novaquark decided to fork the project to work on internally to suit their own needs, they certainly would not be the first company to do that. For Players: - Users would be able to rest assured that no item duping could ever cause the value of their assets to drop drastically. - Stock markets for our ingame player-run corporations. - Ingame nations/guilds/whatever would be able to issue bonds backed by their own ingame assets. - Smart Contracts. Players could write up contracts that are self-executing depending on outside events. To get into why this is useful goes way beyond the scope of this post, but a quick google search for "Smart Contracts" should provide you with more than enough use cases. - Player-run banks. In the scope of OT these would be referred to as "asset issuers". Not sure if this really fits into the scope consider that there doesn't seem to be a huge push from players regarding competing currencies. - Cheques. Anyone who uses a Cheque from day to day knows why these might be useful to players. - Cash. The option of being able to transfer vast amounts of money by having to fly cargo containers full of cash somewhere sounds intriguing, although I'm sure many would disagree with me here. - Users would be protected from an overzealous Novaquark employee modifying their account balances without their permission. I don't mean to point fingers here prematurely, but it has happened in other games and is always something that could happen. - For the programmers among us, we can audit the source code of OT and any improvements we make to it would be seen by all of the people who use it. Okay, but what about the negatives? - OT is not a simple platform to use. It was built by cryptographers for cryptographers, and I don't mean to knock on Novaquark in any way by saying this, but game developers are not necessarily the most versed in cryptography as opposed to someone coming from a financial background working on Wall St. I'm confident Novaquark's developers are extremely competent, but this may be new territory for many of them. - OT can be bloaty. The shared library size is quite large on its own, I don't want to think about what the static library size looks like nowadays. - OT is peculiar about the way it stores its data on filesystems. This may not work for everyone, however people have written their own storage engine implementations for it. One of my last OT related projects was building a HyperTable backend for it. - OT is not always intuitive from a developers standpoint. If you come into OT without knowing much about digital contracting, you will be left scratching your head as to what the various API calls actually mean or do. There is a community that is willing to help, but again it's probably not an overnight task. - OT may be way beyond what Novaquark wants to accomplish regarding their market features. From a game development standpoint, not everyone is going to want Stocks or Bonds, and not many people have the time to figure out how to use Smart Contracts (or what to even use them for). - Dual Universe's pre-alpha likely already has a market implementation, and (I don't know why you would even do this) if the system wasn't developed with an abstract interface in front of it, it may be extremely difficult to swap out one subsystem/service for another. - OT is not currently multithreaded across the board, although it's on the roadmap the last I checked. I don't anticipate it will be for several more years. Summary If you've gotten this far, thank you for taking the time to read what I've written up here. I know that there's not a very good chance of Novaquark even seeing this post, let alone taking it seriously, but I believe that OT can fill a gap for them that no other piece of (free open source) software can currently provide. I also believe that even if Novaquark doesn't use OT, that they should consider implementing some of the features it would otherwise provide; such as Checks, Bonds and Stocks. These would only work to supplement the types of gameplay that players are inevitably going to end up doing anyways. For a persistent game on a universal scale, we should have feature-rich markets. I'm not the best at writing these long types of posts, but I look forward to being part of this community going forward from here regardless of the reaction to this first post of mine :-)

In a previous topic, there was a brief moment where some of us discussed how the economy in Dual Universe will operate. I feel like this is a good topic to continue discussing, even now despite what little information we have. However, I hope that Nyz can shed some light on this. Before we begin, if you see anything missing from this topic, please let me know. I plan to update this thread with current economic facts, as well as discussion points. Thanks! _____________________________________________________________________ Topics of interest! If you have something you want to be discussed, let me know and I can update it here. Business Ventures - With a game like DU, whose scope is truly massive in its goal to create a living, breathing sandbox universe, the possibilities for all sorts of professions are near endless. What sort of ideas do you have? Central Trade Hub - While this topic may be a little pre-mature, I am hoping as we get more information in the future anything we discuss on this can begin to be fleshed out. Eve Online has a many trade hubs, but THE trade hub is known as Jita. Anything and everything can be found there. While DU will be a different game in its own right, should we as the first players look in to trying to create a centralized trade hub int he early stages of the game? By a collective effort from the community, we could easily create said market. Or, we could let things happen naturally. The latter will happen either way, and throughout different regions. What are your thoughts? _____________________________________________________________________ I am no economic nut, but it does excite me for whatever reason. The economy will be a huge part of this game, and I'd really like to get everyone's input on it, and start putting some ideas together so that come game day, we've got a plan and vision of what to expect. Right now that's all I have on my mind. I plan to keep this topic going, and I will update the thread as needed. Also, another jab at Nyz! Any insight you have on this topic would be appreciated. It will help guide the discussions somewhere relevant to what we can expect to see. DU ECONOMY FAQ: ? Auctions - Can be visibly seen locally (in whatever region the Market Unit is established.) ? Standard Currency - There will be a standard currency established for the economy. (Players will not be able to create their own currencies.) ? Newbie Zone Market - The starting zone will have an initial market hub established to "jump start" the economy, and provide some basic means for the players via NPC vendors. ? Market Units - A buildable structure to establish a trading post. ? Information Units - A build-able structure to view local buy/sell orders on the market. DU ECONOMY REFERENCE LINKS: ? DEVBLOG - From Barter To Market Economy - Lego