le_souriceau

Because PvP ship is not 1 M gun.
 
We talking not about some "basic raider" to harass paper haulers that not shooting back (this can be any crap with any gun). But about actual combat against other specialized PvP ships and crews -- something to be expected to see in this asteroid belts (as attack/defence force for organizational mining ops). This kind of ships much more (prohibitively now) expensive, with new industy, cores and elements losses.
 

Imho the problem with PvP is not that there are too few scenarios in which you can actually engage someone else, but that it's  absurdly and stupidly expensive.
You don't find ppl to PvP with because PvP itself is out of reach for the majority of the playerbase, making it harder to obtain the necessary assets to be able to PvP (like NQ did with 0.23) will only make the situation worse.
 

Except when it's vital...
 
Cryolite seems to be a problem in itself and shows deeper problems potentially with the system and some of the proposals above. 
 
From personal experience I mined less than 25 kl of Cryolite from 111 territory scans. 
 
Cryolite is required for large dynamic and space cores, alongside gold nuggets and kolbeckite.
 
This isn't the only thing it is needed for though. 
 
I found more gold from less than 20 scans. 
 
Maybe I was unlucky? 
 
Apparently not...
 
It's currently on the market at over twice the price of kolbeckite and 50% higher than gold nuggets, even though I think most agree that gold armour is what's needed for serious PvP? 
 
At one point the lowest sale price for Cryolite was 1,600 quanta per litre, and there were only 3 orders with less than 50 kl of Cryolite on the markets, total. 
 
Even now there are only 13 sale orders, but 71 buy orders. The volumes are much higher now, so I'm wondering if smaller orgs had stockpiled, hoping to make L cores, but are now selling to afford the schematics they would need to make them.
 
You need more Cryolite to make your L cores than either of the other two. It's not far short of the other two added together.  
 
So even before L cores became inaccessible to most, due to price hikes for direct sales and the industry revamp, the limited supply of Cryolite was what slowed us down as an Org.
 
We wanted to make a really big space station that you could fly big ships into. 
 
The fact that the recent and upcoming updates give a significant PvP advantage to L dynamics just makes this problem worse. 
 
If the game's designers allow it to be looped in a viciously paradoxical cycle where you can't access L cores unless you already have L cores by placing the supply of Cryolite exclusively in a zone that could be relatively easily inderdicted by larger PvP orgs this would mean they are denying the game any serious potential for long term growth or for newer players to enter the game at or after full launch and ever stand any chance of creating any org that could ever be competitive in PvP.
 
Why would any significant number of players ever move to such a game? 
 

Consindering "asteroid mining" incoming relativly soon (and whole balancing it brings)... I wonder, what is actual situation with ore on planets? And wanted to propose to consolidate our empyrical observations (your/of your friends/org mates) and general thoughts.
 
Here is mine:
 
T1:
Still abundant almost everyhere. Even with current T1 "burning" to bots player population seems to be too small (and dropped even smaller) to seriously damage T1 supply in next several months. 
 
T2 
OK. With ocasional traces of someone else mining (on more popular planets), usualy its not that hard to find ore just next tile. Will last awhile.
 
T3 (beyond SZ):
Depends -- on ore and planet. Not as easy as at begining, there is obvious "cleared" patches, even in "worst" cases still doable with some scanning and patience. May be hot thing for asteroids eventualy.
 
T4-T5 (beyond SZ):
Overall -- bad, yet again -- depends on ore. Some are totaly non-economical to mine (immense time waste to find even negligible quantity), others -- still possible, but detiorating every day. We need asteroids with them on idea of risk-reward.
 
 
While may sound cruel to some, I think mineble asteroids must be 100% in PvP zone (especialy T1-T2-T3), because at least some "ore pressure", coupled with (eventualy) impoved PvP (both for attack and DEFENCE) -- only way to produce natural specialization, dynamics and gameplay-loops. And probably important way for DU survive until release and territory warfare as game with some activity.
 
Also, most importantly, for a change NQ need to be careful with new feature and not outright generate mega-nodes or other radical things. Just try concept with smaller nodes and observe/collect data how it will roll live with people mining and fighting around -- then, if something not good -- add more. Because otherwise I can almost predict classical NQ fail-cringe, when they "by mistake" generate 3 kk nodes of T5s and someone fast and furious ("big org") grab it without any opposition and everyone else grumpy forever. Generaly I super-suspicious of NQ repeating 1st week errors again. Wery little of confidence in their disign judgement left. 
 
Your thoughts?
 
 

Beyond colleteral, I have very low expectations on initial implementatation level. It likely be totaly un-balanced, full of exploits and bugs, with early grinders cutting good money with little effort (abusing weak spots), until NQ slowly fix something. So far NQ not done anything in major features list right from fist try. Good if I'm wrong.

Consindering "asteroid mining" incoming relativly soon (and whole balancing it brings)... I wonder, what is actual situation with ore on planets? And wanted to propose to consolidate our empyrical observations (your/of your friends/org mates) and general thoughts.
 
Here is mine:
 
T1:
Still abundant almost everyhere. Even with current T1 "burning" to bots player population seems to be too small (and dropped even smaller) to seriously damage T1 supply in next several months. 
 
T2 
OK. With ocasional traces of someone else mining (on more popular planets), usualy its not that hard to find ore just next tile. Will last awhile.
 
T3 (beyond SZ):
Depends -- on ore and planet. Not as easy as at begining, there is obvious "cleared" patches, even in "worst" cases still doable with some scanning and patience. May be hot thing for asteroids eventualy.
 
T4-T5 (beyond SZ):
Overall -- bad, yet again -- depends on ore. Some are totaly non-economical to mine (immense time waste to find even negligible quantity), others -- still possible, but detiorating every day. We need asteroids with them on idea of risk-reward.
 
 
While may sound cruel to some, I think mineble asteroids must be 100% in PvP zone (especialy T1-T2-T3), because at least some "ore pressure", coupled with (eventualy) impoved PvP (both for attack and DEFENCE) -- only way to produce natural specialization, dynamics and gameplay-loops. And probably important way for DU survive until release and territory warfare as game with some activity.
 
Also, most importantly, for a change NQ need to be careful with new feature and not outright generate mega-nodes or other radical things. Just try concept with smaller nodes and observe/collect data how it will roll live with people mining and fighting around -- then, if something not good -- add more. Because otherwise I can almost predict classical NQ fail-cringe, when they "by mistake" generate 3 kk nodes of T5s and someone fast and furious ("big org") grab it without any opposition and everyone else grumpy forever. Generaly I super-suspicious of NQ repeating 1st week errors again. Wery little of confidence in their disign judgement left. 
 
Your thoughts?
 
 

Beyond colleteral, I have very low expectations on initial implementatation level. It likely be totaly un-balanced, full of exploits and bugs, with early grinders cutting good money with little effort (abusing weak spots), until NQ slowly fix something. So far NQ not done anything in major features list right from fist try. Good if I'm wrong.

The following is strictly my opinion. I hold absolutely no weight inside NQ nor do I believe I have any influence over their decision making. I also do not claim to know about what goes on behind the scenes as far as decisions are made. Alpha Team Vanguard is the furthest extent of my knowledge that could be considered outside the public eye.
 
TLDR at the bottom.
 
 
No wipe until after beta and before release or unless there is something seriously holding the game back from further development. Those are the only scenarios where I see it acceptable to perform a full wipe and planet reset.
 
I also maintain my position that a subscription beta was a terrible idea and that whomever put it forward may have put Dual Universe and by extension NovaQuark in jeopardy. I don't say it to be dramatic, but if we were still in an alpha like state where people simply bought into the testing phase and with BIG LETTERS told to expect things like bugs, glitches, incomplete content, and the occasional wipe, I feel it would have better set expectations and people would be way more tempered in their opinions.
 
We should be beta TESTING, a 'soft launch' should have never, ever been in the cards regardless of the financial situation. When I heard NQ stating that we'd be 'soft launching', I immediately questioned what happened to NQ's interoperation of the alpha and beta phases being proper test phases and not things like steam early access where the game was basically 'released' while not actually in its release (v1.0) state.
 
How NQ handles its ATV team is regrettable. I don't feel like an advance tester with an opinion that will be considered along with fellow ATV testers. Suggestions for how these test s should be handled in various instances have gone unanswered for months or are given some half solution that doesn't do much in the way of assisting with the testing process, hence my involvement in said testing is minimal.
 
If I was not leading my own organization.
If I was not a lifetime subscription holder.
If I was not ATV.
If I was not a moderator of the official discord.
 
I don't think I'd be here right now. Yeah, weird flex on basically the entire community I know, don't tell me.
 
All of that (somehow) fell into my lap because I was here for the kickstarter, and every time I log in, I wonder 'why me'? All I saw was a great game that I really wanted to be a part of. You beta testers that just plopped $20 down probably see those four things as a lot to loose and to some, maybe it is. Now flip that view and see things from my perspective, for all you beta testers with only $20 on the line and nothing to loose except enough for dinner for one, a few months time, and even some hopes and dreams, I'm surprised more of you haven't left already. If I was a new tester and was VR'ing around and looking at all the amazing stuff people have already created, forget the economics of it all. If all that was subject to a wipe from players that felt like they were behind the curve, I wouldn't bother subscribing until after release.
 
Ever since beta launched, we've been bumbling and stumbling around like drunks after last call.
 
I am forgiving of all the bugs we're experiencing. Alpha has sharpened me on that. Beta has not turned out how I thought it would. To be fair, alpha didn't either, but we're beyond that now... aren't we?
 
Am I dissapointed, yes. Am I still here though, yeah, I am. Do I have my complaints and grievances, I do. Will I air them, sure, if NovaQuark wants to hear them, most definitely. Do I think they'll listen, to me or anyone else, no.
 
Hope yall enjoyed my word vomit, that's all it probably is anyways. Cheers.
 
 
TLDR:
I think I'm a sepshul person in the community? (atv, discord mod, lifetime sub...... somehow)
Beta is a catastrophe
I'm unhappy with NQ and ATV
Things would be different if we were still testing and not a paid beta
NQ said alpha and beta would be proper testing phases and not early access

May be because you very experienced, early-start, relativly in game wealthy and lot-of-play-time player? 
 
This why you not in demographics that were hurt most by this so called update. 
 
 

Salut à tous !
 
Ici NQ-Nishtar, votre nouvelle CM FR sur Dual Universe... Ravie de vous rencontrer !
 
C’est un réel honneur de pouvoir enfin me présenter à vous.
 
Tout d’abord, sachez que vous risquez de me voir apparaître de temps en temps sur les plateformes anglophones. Pas de panique, mes missions sont principalement dédiées à développer à vos côtés la communauté francophone.
 
Etant nouvelle sur le projet, il faudra me laisser le temps de m’adapter et d’apprendre à vous connaître avant que je puisse vous proposer un plan d’attaque. Mais, si vous avez d’ores et déjà des propositions à faire concernant la communauté française, n’hésitez pas à venir m’en parler !
 
Pour la petite anecdote, avant Novaquark, je travaillais sur un autre MMO. Et je compte bien continuer à apprécier à mes heures perdues l’univers de DU !
 
En tout cas, je suis très motivée pour commencer cette aventure et j’ai hâte d’échanger plus en profondeur avec vous, que ce soit à propos du jeu ou juste des diverses questions et requêtes que vous pourriez avoir.
 
Alors n’hésitez pas à venir discuter avec moi. Je n’aurai peut-être pas toujours LA réponse, mais je ferai tout mon possible pour vous aider du mieux que je peux. Je suis persuadée que nous avons beaucoup à apprendre mutuellement les uns des autres ☺️
 
A très vite !

From my perspective, you seem to be defending its poor performance. I say, its poor performance is inexcusable.

True, true, good and yes
 
It's encouraging to see the changes in the CM department over the past months. How that translates down the pipe into the company is what remains to be seen.. Let's hope for the best and a positive change by NQ in this regard. The work and input from the CM team is appreciated for sure!

Wipe is worse.
 
Because it will produce unpredictable losses in already thin playerbase. Especialy after NQ condemned us for this "schematics grind" in which many people already invested literaly days of soulkilling grind. It will be cruel mockery to wipe AFTER this.

If you haven't noticed  they really care less about critical economic data... I mean... they pushed patch .23
 
And that is despite pleas and pages written to them saying this would be a bad idea. In the end what has this patch achieved? More mining. More tedium. More grind. This whole market idea is a fail since there are no unique items. All that will happen is dilution. At some point everyone will be able to build everything.  And the markets will be obsolete again. Centering gameplay around markets to force player interaction.... lol.
 
NQ thinks that stretching out the current content is content in itself. All they did was create a padding economy that is boring as hell in a soap opera.
 
No unique elements.
No new content.
PVP is even more pointless.
The game logic of schematics is laughable.

Wipe is worse.
 
Because it will produce unpredictable losses in already thin playerbase. Especialy after NQ condemned us for this "schematics grind" in which many people already invested literaly days of soulkilling grind. It will be cruel mockery to wipe AFTER this.

It doesn't matter what others have, all that it matters - in a game - is that you are having fun, or not. At the moment game definitely doesn't need a wipe, what it needs is a content, a choice to do various things from login to logout. Missions they want to introduce will help but will become stale content in a month or two on their own. "Space trucking" is cool, I like it as an idea, and it will prolong game lifespan (even in current state.)
What this game needs badly is PvE, set in levels/tiers so people who are afraid of losing stuff can stick to easy difficulty and low rewards, and HC players have their adrenaline on higher tier missions/challenges/events/locations...
Second thing it badly requires is ore regeneration on SOME level/some mechanic of it. With those in place, game will have enough content/activity that people are not bored. Once PvE is used for ship/element/weapons balance, a proper incentives need to be given for PvP as proper, real "endgame". PvP should definitely not be like it is now, a carrot is missing, and territory warfare should fix that.
 
Of all the things listed, only thing that wipe accomplishes is killing the game and forcing everyone to start with nothing, again, and grind / mine until their eyes bleed. Also, keep in mind that discussing wipes in this manner only makes a large number of players uncertain will the "WIPE WIPE WIPE!!!!" advocates will win or that wipe >MIGHT< happen, even at end of beta, and automatically they have ZERO Incentive to log in the game and put effort in the game as they >MIGHT< lose it all if wipe happens = even less players online thanks these talks.....
Yes, some people exploited, and some people "exploited". Some used bots on start in first week or two to sell ores and gained mils of quanta in advantage over others - in the long run, 100 mil doesn't mean anything. Dont forget that they decided to go with EVE GTC/Plex system, if someone buys 4-5 plex will he gain equal "advantage over others he/she shouldnt have" ?
 
Schematics were a soft wipe. Next one is coming Energy Management, one more after that with territory warfare. Each of those will change the game enough to be considered such.

The very moment fullwipe is announced (without keeping assets via magic constructs, talents etc) I would instantly delete the game and cancel sub, rest of my corporation quite likely. Solo players have to invest so much time to be even remotely competitive, small companies same. The only thing a wipe would do is delete the hard work of small groups and individuals, which can sometimes, more often than not, resemble 8 hour shifts. As the game lacks content, those long hours have been often tedious hours of looking for ore, mining, and some fun hours of setting up industry or building ships. I/We play this game on an assumption that this is not a "classic early access game" where you  pay 4-25$ once, and then you get to play and test the game but accept that this is just it - testing period. We pay a monthly subscription like this is a full release and logically - treat it as such.
 
Yes, content is lacking, yes, no matter what you can do in this "sandbox game" at this stage you will end up mining; some people might try trading, there is a point in that role especially post schematics patch. PvP is non-existant atm, expect in a form of an agreed event or pure roflstomp on a person afk slow-boating as they don't have warp. What we need is more content, not a "wipe/restart" which will make us on "even footing" with others. It never will. In fact, it will make things far worse. Think about it - we had some resources if not raw cash before .23. We had a starting point, and we all - some to lesser some to greater extent used it to buy schematics, which allowed us to produce stuff after .23 hit.
 
Now, lets see what you are REALLY asking for:
 
Post hard wipe, Day Zero: You start the game in a starting speed00, happy for a moment that everyone is on "equal footing". After spending weeks to mine stuff, only to sell it to bots (yes, you will have to, because no player will have money to buy if you try to produce screws/pipes), you've built a most basic t1 "factory" producing......hmm, likely L containers AT BEST. "Its a good idea, everyone will need containers". Few days later you've found out the sad truth. Your container's price is bashed to oblivion because so many people had the same idea, solo/small group players like you. You cant sell schematic because others are trying to sell it too. Eventually you can try for half price or so.More mining later, you found a product which sells.  "Meanwhile, deep in the Caribbean", t2 engines are popping on the market, and someone is taking orders for warp drives. They are, ofc, overpriced. With some research, leet "socialskillz", you found out its a 40 man corp, with a fully set t3 factory. "HOW!" you yell? I got work I got family I cant play 24/7! I am quitting this! I cant play more then 4h/day!". After initial rage subsides, you,  determined to keep "even footing for everyone bcs mah rightz", decide to take a vacation and play 2 weeks straight. After enough mining to make your eyes bleed, you look at fully set t1 factory with several t2 schematics. You did good! You are competitive! While selling your hard earned goods on the market, you notice an L ship landing with anti-grav..full of t4/t5 ore....perhaps, after all, it was better to spend the time with family instead of mining....*Looks at calcium in inventory sadly*....*looks at all that cryo on market*.....alt f4.
 
If you want to "catch up" the big orgs, atm, you can. "You, too can have an L core with anti-grav". You, too can farm for "golden pvp ship". You cant replace lots stuff like they do, you are not sitting on a large hoard and you need to work harder to get stuff you want - but at the same time, there is some much more of a feeling of an accomplishment if few people did that, instead of something being just handed to you for "free". Adapt, evolve (destroy when pvp comes actually) and be patient for new content if you believe in game as much as I do, but don't ask for hard wipes without thinking what they ACTUALLY bring - sudden death to all but groups of 30+, who will leave after 3 or 4 months as they wont have anyone to play with, be superior over, or even sell stuff to.
 
Finally, do you really believe that after release hits, and 6 months pass, no one will join game? What will that person who just joined say first? "Omg this needs a hard wipe I cant compete!". Be careful what you wish for.
 
 

Yes, but most players who were involved in this see it coming and invested quick money into valuable assets, or splitted money between alts/friends, so neglegable ammount of money was actualy lost/wiped with this mostly decorative action of NQ.
 
 

The main problem with a wipe, is that DU has active subscription players. So if there is a wipe in a game where players are paying for content that is supposed to be permanent, do the subscription players get a refund? And if not, then what exactly did the subscription players pay for?
 
There is also the problem that a wipe would probably lead to a mass exodus (even more so then 0.23). Speaking for myself a wipe now would be the final death knell for me at least. JC said there would be no wipe in a stream some time ago (can't be bothered to find the exact one), and I have proceeded accordingly. In later streams he has revised to saying they will avoid a wipe if possible, which basically means the same thing. In my opinion the last opportunity NQ had for a global wipe, was the last test release they did shortly before the beta release with subscriptions.
 
And lastly, what exactly will a wipe achieve beside from reducing the already dwindling player count?
I hear a lot of talk about how a wipe will save the economy etc, but I fail to see how. Large org's will do large org things regardless, and 0.23 has only made the divide larger. There has already effectively been a industry reset for all players. So how is a global wipe supposed to 'save' the game? Solo players and small org's will never be able to compete with larger ones regardless. And the titans will soon be able to dictate large parts of the game wipe or no wipe. Especially in a game like DU that has a small player base.
 

Yep, this is total abomination of idea!
 
And, also, if impelented, will be god level hypocrisy.
 
Like JC smashing economy with soft wipe of paywalls for "players too isolated, not using markets enough", but this will exactly do this: isolate builders in their own virtual building reality forever (especialy -- from market, they will not need anything "material" anymore), we will be seeing only their "show off" screenshots, not them.
 
No. No. And no.

You were right the first time ?

Oh look... Warp drives are back down to 1.5M on a number of markets after hitting a high of about 8M a few days ago.... That didn't take long. LOL.
 
JC, was that too quick for you? Are you going nerf tf out of everything again?

It beggars belief that JC still has bots in the game...
 
bots giving out free money, bots buying ore at a fixed price and bots taking all the quanta back by selling magic potions.
 
This is basically the China factory syndrome: pay your workers then force them to use your restaurants, accommodation and leisure facilities, completely capturing the flow of capital and leaving little “leakage” for third parties.
 
I’m no economist, but this just seems like patent nonsense to me from a gaming (not a hyper-exploitative cotton farm in China) viewpoint. 
 
JC has decried the lack of human interaction. Hell he was even willing to risk losing or at least alienating half his player base to address the issue...
 
and what does he go and do? Basically set up a short circuit between a sweet trifecta of his own bots, effectively cutting human interaction out of the entire transaction from ore to store. 

dig by yourself.  Sell to bots. Get money for existing, the give all that money back to JC... so that you can once again craft your own shit for your own ships.
 
Well played, JC, you could have probably written the background story to Brazil! 
 

Couldn't such thoughts be had BEFORE something was done? I mean you clearly realize that there are not enough ways to make quanta and draw the conclusion that this is why ppl  were building everything for themselves, leading to solo play and isolation. Yet you drop a patch which completely changes EVERYTHING and doesn't SOLVE anything (quanta generation).
Why is it so hard to think about basic consequences? JC even acknowledged that in that QA stream "we know we don't have enough means to generate quanta, but we will put in a huge quanta sink nonetheless". Maybe think about consequences first and if you're not sure how ppl play your game then ASK them.
A very good patch for the longevity of the game presented poorly is worse then an ok patch presented well.
 
ok, fair enough. But you DO have an estimate of prices as long as bots buy T1 ore. At least for items made from those. But I understand that this is simply a balancing issue
 
The upvote feature is a joke, as I showed you already. And since nothing on how you use that data/how this affects your decisions is communicated with the playerbase, we have no way of knowing.
Test server: good. finally
ATV: why not do those discussions with all players? one thread, gather information. Why should it be limited to some ppl?
 
Since I don't play anymore, I will focus on the following:
I really hope that you get that info out there ASAP - you know, because you learned so much from 0.23.
 
I love it how, in the first paragraph, speak about having fun ways to earn money and how mining is the only option now. And here you are proposing even MORE mining as ways to generate quanta.
And yes I'm aware that asteroid mining/mining units may be unique to PVP space (which I doubt) but that doesn't mean that there will be more PVP or pirates attacking those ppl mining there when they don't earn enough money that way cause ppl delete all their stuff when attacked.
 
So all in all I guess you heard the community but lets see how that works out first.
Pretty hard to write anything positive about this when for years now NQ acted as they did - you need an equal amount of years with positive things, communication and actual listening to your playerbase to overwrite those bad times.
 

Seeing how the steady stream of parts needed to build T2/3 ships and parts in EVE is not a problem I'd say there is plenty of people who enjoy and engage in these activities. The success and growth of groups specializing in running high risk sites shows both that they work and that the communal purpose of the game and these sites works. this is something NQ has yet to comprehend and work towards. Hanging out with 10+ players on comms running these sites for hours is very much fun and engaging as well as quite lucrative for all involved. And be it PVP or PVE, seeing an entire fleet get wiped out because one person miscalculates is great cause for banter and a good laugh. 
 
I completely understand you may find PVE content (in EVE) boring. For me it beats hanging around a gate hoping for something juicy to come along (and yes often that juice is in fact an explorer) as it allows me to set my goals and mostly be in control of my activities as well as quite easily pay for my game time. DU makes a point of saying you can earn your keep in game but so far I'm not seeing how anyone wil be able to make that happen as I'd expect DAC to not go cheap in game.
 
 
CCP has economists on the payroll and has has one or more for many, many years as it is crucial to their bottom line. they produce the monthly economy reports and do a lot of work behind the scenes. DU wants to be EVE with regards to the economy but NQ seem to think they can make that happen overnight relatively speaking and without any substantial faucets beyond mining. I'm sorry but it will take years for that to happen and yes, I absolutely think NQ should have an economist on hand.

CCP is also absolutely dedicated to protecting the EVE economy as the recent issue with releasing original blueprints for faction battleships as loot drops showed.  They not only removed those from the game, replacing them with the intended copies,  but also tracked and removed any copies made from the originals as well as reverted any trade contracts completed for them (as they should). And this is how you deal with and communicate about such things; We made a booboo, do not do X while we fix this and we will take Y action. Short, to the point, clear and no ifs or buts..

NQ would have removed the originals and left the copies made, allowing those that got to them before the error was corrected to benefit from it. It's how many of the big orgs in game got their wealth and many high tier elements early on..