le_souriceau

Critical part is ratio of accounts vs players. Sure, its less then was in Beta with some insane numbers, but it safe to assume, that older, still engaged players (who are basis of surviving population) often running 2+ accounts. So, here we again go to realm of feelings, but, it seems game have several thousands more or less active players. Who provide concurrent of several hundreds.

I think part of this overreaching negative perception, that DU, additional to glaring dev speed issues, has history of absolute failure (to say the least, because of forum rules -- but you can insert much stronger words) in community managment. They not "covered" slow devs at all in downtime. And despite having (initially) very vibrant and supporting community, CM team (consisting most of the time from at least several stuff members) was not able to capitalize on it at all, doing pretty much no one knows what for years. I tried to engage about it with Nyzaltar (CM head, presumably, and still on this place) several times over years, but never got any clear idea or even hint if there is some actual focus of their work or if something to be changed. Only got some bans from him. Maybe its some greater plan in motion, ofc, but...

AI with learing obvious will be future of gaming, when they figure out how to make it fast/cheap (effieicent). Because hard-coded scripted behaivors of "enemies" are at soft cap pretty much sinde 90s. Or even before. In still often have same dummy bots in many games we had as far as in 80s. Sure devs can make them more intricate, wasting exponantionally more resources (in fighting games etc, where its critical for gameplay), but still no jumping above head.

#MeToo

Yep, you totally right about somewhat "easier and faster fun" or something like that. Its what we were telling NQ for years. I literaly remember posts that almost quotes in relation to yours in 2020 and some ideas even before. To no avail. What blundertwink tried to explain somewhat eloquently, that, sadly, momentum of game so gone, thats its doubful that NQ keeps any, lets say, honest intention to spare resources on DU beyond most basic life support.

Haha, i guess old timers can enjoy contextual irony (of you making this topic), like meme intended, but... I guess we already at stage when it doesn't matter. Most interested people in such page proverbially "dead".

Its actually good question, I think. And aswer is pretty simple. Most of DU attraction initialy was an idea, "potential". NQ obviosuly failed to deliver (so actual game they produced less important). But everyone here paid some money to them to try. So, I guess, its totally fair we can stay to discuss what gone wrong or observe last agony twitching with bitter-funny, ironic comments and so on.

Yeah, its like small space bar in middle of nowhere, where same dozen old tired aliens discussing same shit over and over again, grabbing cheap drinks with their tentacles or pincers. Events that happened to long ago or will never happen. None of this really matter. Bit of this existentialism literature vibes.

Well, forum always was a bubble of somewhat extreame, lets say, opinions. Not very representetive of average Joe. Yet with time more and more even of these people loosing sustainability of their arguments (or interest to repeat them). Time and state of game kinda answered most of questions.

Nice one, actually! And interesting game from gaming history perspective. But I guess their running costs likely less, then NQ ones with DU? Its true, that most of methodology here not solid (beyond steam data), but guessing/extrapolation game. We can also use this: https://twitchtracker.com/games/493826 Twitch views usually reasonably correlate to game population/time spend in (question only by what formula for every particular game).

x5 bit too generous, but its anyway dead game numbers fo MMO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't remember MMO in gaming history that ever recovered from concurrent low hundreds and lived long and happly. Even low thousands usually goner numbers.

Take made bit rude and simplistic way, but there is some truth to it. Like over this years when discussing game issues, quite a lot of people (on building/industy/streaming spectrum) were endlessly micro (and sometimes macro) agressing me for my rather vocal position over NQ misdoings and their consequences, ONLY to later quit game exactly because of things they were so fanaticly in denial. Wipe, as biggest example. I sometimes temped to mock such people, even find their own quotes from before, but mostly keep myself on more dignified side. Overall I think much more of social/pvp players got it much quicker that its nothing to wait from NQ, then average builder (carebear?) archtype who "tried to hope" longer. Thios not about Cergorach tho, he was always pleasant and very reasonable guy in discussion.

Trick is DU isn't new by any stretch of imagination, whole dynamics with players base burn are like 7 years in making. So game closer to be old actually. Other then this -- agree, its NQ chance to show something reasonably done for a change. PvE is years overdue, but I guess they only surrendered to it against "player driven" when there is no players left to drive anything.

There is still possibility of NQ somewhow (in wierd frankenstein way) integrading DU into their new "3d blog metaverse" thing. But not sure if many people will like such continuation of game pseudolife.

I think it felt such way for many people, even if they were unable to formulate, because from quite early point it go as that NQ obviously not producing expected "full strenght" effort of reasonably motivated team of stated size. All our endless discussions of we need this, game need that, how to improve this feature... always kinda crushed by reality into dust over "suspicion" that its like probably 10 actual dev people in agony trying to do at least something (and its done badly and taking forever). So you just cease to expect anything good, because, well, its mathematicly impossible at the end of the day.

Again, it wasn't rumour. I'm maybe annoying repeating this, but it was obvious for more informed/analytical people since first weeks (when they first failed with wrecks and other exploits) of Beta. And become pretty much obvious for everyone with some critical thinking after 0.23, schematics thing and JC removal chain of events. It can be called rumour only on basis that NQ, having their interest involved, avoided official confirmation. Its like having wooden house in tightly built wooden city and seeing 3/4 of it already consumed with firestorm and wind going towards your property. It will be rumour? Or reasonable high chance prediction that your home likely will burn too?

Problem with that, that during KS (and later) they presented the game and gathered money for the game, not some "content platform" or god forbid another metaverse nonsense. Its like you paying for pizza in pizza restoraunt and when order comes, its some tiny 1 week old muffin. Sorry, mate, our kitchen road was quite windy : ) And also chief never believed he is making pizza.

Its hard to tell without serious inside, but I think decision to only maintain DU just as useful "showcase" (for future project/s) was done much well before. My guess with failed Beta start, that on itself was rather "last ditch effort", everyone involved from inside knew its not gonna make it -- and JC removal half year later just formalized the reality on the ground. And they jumped for some plan B, leaving several devs to cover their "retreat" and maintain development simulacrum for players. I have some modest experience in web projects (including failed ones) and can vividly imagine this crisis meetings and cynical ideas going on. Maybe its something I be doing myself in this situation. Lying to players/clients. Its how buisness work (no ideally, but realisticly happens with failing ones).

Its not only disign problem, but demographic one. Just very little people can be bothered to oppose them. Same picture can be seen in sometimes dying p4f games with some pvp, when its like 5 people for sever, you think you can chill, but for some reason some guy with level 1000 and 10000 hours playtime still there, stalking everyone for hours to kill in one shot. Sadness of this trully horiffiying.

In bit longer: it seems NQ barely has any resources to realize even bare minimum of their own promises without endless delays and cut corners on every step. So thinking they have something to spare on "great ideas" of players -- is insanity at this point.

I think its not mainly price, but content issue. Because Steam is a less niche exposure then KS of Beta population, with more solo and casual people -- they obviously need elements of "faster fun", some relaxing (if grindy) pve and lot of more casual content to stay longer. Something DU can't offer. So after experiencing actual game realities, majority decides to not buy beyond first 1 m package. Game simply not attractive to enough people. And with horrible reviews even more potential players likely deciding to stay away from game completly.

Its absolutly nothing new here. NQ "shanking" hard different playstyle players from 2016 pretty much. Its just people sometimes tend to be dismissive over issues initially, that feel like not theirs or overblown etc. Then its proverbial knock on their door. Because with style of how NQ tries to develop this game no one is "safe". Only demographic mystery how Steam accs correspond to non-Steam accs (where more of "old guard" players concentrated). Proportion. On Steam layer game pretty much dead with miserable 100-150 concurrent accounts most of the time. Out of Steam I guess its bit better, but still nothing to write home about. Maybe additional 250-300 concurrent accounts (not players).

Retention is now relativly open info with Steam stats (granted, not everyone play via Steam, but it safe to assume, that is how majority of new players were introduced to the game at launch). https://steamdb.info/app/2000270/graphs/ But yeah, I agree, that holes in tiles in game will be even more symbolicly depressing.

Well, I don't know about your mental process about it (different with different people), but quite a lot of "engaged" dudes just done it in childlike fashion -- blackmailing of NQ, like if you take my toys, I leave! And then continued to play, ofc. Was quite funny-miserable actually. At any rate, you right, that people still kinda following game and some are "returnable". Prob 2023 will be deciding year in NQ/DU fate. So not long to wait for resolution.

Well, I meant more like it easier to go bit more scientific or something on own language. Thanks! If you think about it in perspective, thing is NQ actually failed from opposite end -- not by trying to make too many people happy, yet by sliding into road of least resistance, keeping "happy" only most agreable (but smallest) strata of players. Pretty much just riding survivor bias wave. Because if you like imagine some graph of player numbers, activity and, lets say, planned goals and interests in game -- initially it was all about EVE-inspired fantasies, driven by large groups, their aliances, all kind of politics and good stuff, with other niches, "pillars" of gameplay, sandbox options and roads to take were presumed to be formed around this vibrant "core" of community action. Sure, at some point NQ obviously stuck with immense technical issues for years (so it was hard to keep it up with promises), yet it was also lack of strategy and understanding of base, neglegence pretty much. Like, per example, we still have no community page or some new version of it, while it was crucial insturment for social players to keep it fun. And there is long list of what could be done to maintain some fire in this strata of players with minimal resources from NQ. Nothing was done. Gradually they internally (and intentionally I guess) decided, that easiest part of player base to work with are builders. Just give them some landmark-like stuff to burn 10000 hours and they happy, ocassionally begging for this or that tool, but not very loud. This shift especially noticeble by how NQ runned social media, endlessly spamming some "omg guy X built thing Y". Who cares? But it was tragicomical simulation of happy player base, while hundreds and thousands were leaving loosing patience or interest in game. For me symbol of process was Landmark Explorer guy, with his impossibly boring stuff of visiting useless boring buildings, all endlessly hyped by NQ. Again, nothing personal, I respect such kind of work and guy's passion for it, but for me its like painful representation how game degraded from something cool like EVE to another failure-bro of Landmark. Likely with quite same terminal trajectory. When game gone bit more developed, industrialists felt its real deal, until majority of them got some cold shower of how system is underdeveloped or even rigged on so many layers. Same I guess with PvPers, sure there is some fanatics still camping for hours in space, but majority of people who wanted to have PvP in DU statisticly overhelmingly left. So its again mostly builders or whats left of them (most stubborn ones), who form survival bias group of positvite and supportive players now. But its absolutly unsustainable on numbers. Sorry for long post. Just, ironicly, all this wasted "potential" of 2016 Kistarter dream kinda pains me still. P.S. Omsk? Cool! I'm bit to the east : ) Politicans are crap everywhere I'm being in world more or less, best ones just less harmful : ) So totally agree.