Deintus

I understand the rant very much. I could really envision all of these things together in the ads I saw, from the pvp to even the ship design. I am just now convinced this game is actually Alpha. Maybe we can all see it in a year or so?

When I originally saw and read about the game, the idea of a totally player driven economy was very intriguing. After being registered to these forums for a bit, reading, I bit the bullet and got the game. My idea was to begin and create a virtual corporation based on ship designs and selling. After I started, it looked promising. Sure I would have to work a bit, but I saw a definite need for cheap, sturdy, ready to buy and fly ships. It looked perfect! I was hoping to start an ORG and hopefully find a way to pay and employ other players to see the end result happen. I would need a way to procure ores, I figured maybe I could strike a contract with a mining org, I thought I could work to buy intermediary products from other orgs, and just produce end parts, such as engines, controllers, etc. inhouse. Then get ship designers to jump in and buy their designs, put the whole thing together, and sell end product to the DU community. I figured that I came into this game early enough to get a foothold to where I could do this as I would have incoming new customers over the next year anyway. What were other peoples ideas when they came into the game? *NOTE: I understand that my vision is not possible with the current game state, and not likely to become possible either. I was just curious what other peoples first impressions and ideas where when they first saw and bought into the game.

In total agreement. And the way I see it, especially after the latest discord, expect many more resets and grinding ahead. I see no real attempt to take the communities opinions into consideration, only token changes to keep enough people hanging on to fund some end product whose vision I am not understanding in the least with the broad responses I saw.

Yes thanks for the transcript, for me it is hard to find RL time to pop in discord whenever and my schedule never meshes with them. Change the way you advertise the game NQ. What I am seeing here is nothing like the imagery or web site promises I saw. The only excuse given is that "it takes time", and this is given as a sort of catchphrase for several current issues such as PvP, Dev Diaires, Mining Units, and many, many other topics. Any long time gamer isn't an idiot, of course it takes time, all this is telling me is that this game was released waayyy to early. This is still a very obvious Alpha game and it looks nothing like the grandiose vision JC has painted above. I see ore replanting, server wipes, bot market manipulation mapped out and while not directly stated in some cases, most definitely hinted at and I do not feel like starting over again with some job-like tedium grind everytime a major patch drops like this latest one. I would still be playing WOW if that was my cup of tea.

Then why are they justifying the changes using real world concepts? The statement of making industry like RL was very plain. (i.e. the reference to cell phones) So why shouldn't ALL aspects be such? You seem intelligent, surely you are seeing some hypocrisy here. How can you want markets to be realistic, player driven, industry realistic, player driven, but not apply it to creativity as well? The solution is an all or none situation. Otherwise what you are doing is making a game that you can design pretty ships in, but that's it. It definitely divides the community. And it would be a few million Quanta per design. The machine would only be 80k.

It would be nice to see it in game, fly with it, fight against it. Does it fly like a rock? A bird? it can be pretty but can it haul 100kL into space? Simulations even at todays sophistication can never tell all nuances or flaws of a design. Just look at Boeing or SpaceX. The only way to truly test a system, even today, is with a prototype. Even then flaws can sneak in. Real life example is a modern car. $6 Billion USD is the cost of one model redesign. And that is JUST A car. That money is pumped back into the economy (game) by jobs, materials, research, etc... I bet you would scream if it cost you just 5 Billion Quanta to use creative mode.

I was wondering, has anyone figured out the complete quanta price on a basic/average small core ship with a couple of weapons and capable of atmospheric as well as space flight? I am only spitballing and do not know myself, but I would guesstimate ... 5 mil quanta? Maybe more?

For DU I have no clue, but for most games I have ever been a part of, some can have as much as 40% ?

Funny, I see both sides of the fence. The good and the bad. I think the point is NQ made a commitment to be a certain way and are now changing direction away what was said previously, AGAIN. For me the take-away is NQ may have an end game in mind, but they decided to walk the path through the woods where the wolf is.

If I may ask, WHEN will this update be? Is there a short term quick fix for those considering leaving the game?

I have seen many good ideas mentioned throughout the forums already. The question of "are the devs listening" is becoming very prevalent in my mind. Many believe they do not. But in the spirit of the thread: Mentioned elsewhere, like a datacube. An element that can be attached like a black box, but holds up to ... say 512 characters... as an example. Right click to read, and if you have ownership, write to it. This can also be used as a 'ships log' in wrecks adding to lore. Mentioned elsewhere, an immediate and temporary but VERY deep cut to schematic prices. With these prices set to rise as more money making elements are introduced. Mentioned elsewhere, allow recyclers to recycle elements back into it's basic pure ore. This will add another way to obtain ore as well slow down resource disappearance. Mentioned, make the ship wrecks completely salvageable with lore in datacubes. Hint at a violent hive mind insect... I like the zerg angle but it should be contained like the aliens in ED. Certain solar systems only. NPC's of any type are pretty moderate to add at best, designing the meshes, dialog, patterns, etc. So start with NPC orgs.... get the player base used to the names and what to expect from each NPC when approached, fire upon, or mission offered. Mentioned, make storage containers that are destroyed leak cargo or accessible by all. A good first step in PvP viability and random ships left everywhere. Make players able to exchange parts, quanta, pay for and exchange blueprints directly. I have many more ideas as does the rest of the community. And hey, I am not trying to be rude and my apologies if I am, I am just asking for your opinion @Olmeca_Gold, why should we even do this when it's been done?

Ugh, so it just keeps getting better.

Thank you. I knew I would feel stupid... ?

1) Point taken, i was just mentioning it because it demonstrates that you can play the game without ever seeing another player or even attempting to engage in PvP if you so chose. 2) They work well with predetermined groups and friends. Queue for one? Forget about it... but it is there and available. 3) The initial NPC fights are only the first step. It teaches you to control a ship and keep a lead on a target. Get with your friends and practice in other areas. I have yet to meet a griefer or troll there since I left the starting planet 4 years ago. Again, Arena, that selection called social. 4) Maybe it's me. Getting started in PvP on ED was easy, simple, fairly quick. Great that you have 2 years over me in ED. So? To me the grind doesn't feel like a grind... explore, trade, mining, bounty hunt, powerplay, I do whatever I feel like doing and make money at it. The engineers of course are required to become a real threat (viable) to everyone in the galaxy solo. But wings help curtail some of that. The bigger battles are always far more fun imo. I didn't make my comment to argue details of ED. Most here probably don't care. My point stands... using ED as a sole comparison of PvP against DU is not fair. DU is an unfinished product by far. Nor does it mean ED is the only one out there to compare it with. Currently there is no comparison. Few have serious complaints in ED because it's a finished product.

Hey guys, Anyone know what this latest... LATEST... patch did besides give me 150k quanta to start? Seems 700+meg wouldn't be needed for that. Schematics, Markets, I just can't see a game difference yet. I looked in the DU news, nothing but 0.23 info. Where do i go to find out what is included in this patch for 12-11? I can't even seem to find a ReadMe file unless I am overlooking it. I have a feeling I am missing something big here and will feel stupid after the first answer. Thanx,

ED isn't a fair comparison. It is a well established game of many (6) years. There are options of Solo Play with no PvP whatsoever, as well as Arenas for full slug outs. Plus you get PvP training, regular broadcasted community goals for PvE and PvP alike. All systems are in place and work. No reason for them to peep.

Not all behavior in these forums are negative. And I wonder if the devs themselves are even aware of the ones that are.

I think I made it almost 2 weeks before I found out. Code for simple deletion of cache items older than 48 hours would be a start. There are threads about it, but I do agree. Why spend hours digging through forums that aren't arranged in a way that could possibly replace a basic manual.

This link I believe, sums up my thoughts in a calm logical manner on the current game.. I, like others, am stuck but not resubbing. The cry I have heard from the forums as well as the discord and even comments on youtube has been very loud and clear. Add to that my personal experience with the customer service team that really wasn't bad at all (Yes, I am aware of the popular belief/fact that devs don't talk to CS) I figure I may log in randomly until my time's up and maybe just maybe, by some small sliver of hope, they will, I don't know, cut schematic costs by 80%-90% as a quick-to-do example and maybe I can resub believing they actually do listen and have a full game plan. I guess time will tell.

I don't expect NQ devs to hear me, but I would like to extend with thoughts of my own: I agree and have stated so elsewhere. Low end systems (yes with updated drivers ?) are bad enough it's actually very hard to stop on an elevator to use it at times. Why allow for low end systems? To expand your player base of course. The more that are able to play it can contribute more to overall income of the game. There are people who rage quit over issues that aren't as bad as this, and besides, if you are trying to emulate 'real life' then you need all types of players. Again, agreed and stated elsewhere. I realize not everyone is into PvE, nor does it seem like everyone is into PvP either, but these things MUST be established, stable and in place as an alternative way to make money. Ships that can be found and COMPLETELY salvaged, short delivery or bounty type missions (some of which can be turned into tutorials), a small and controlled NPC population, maybe going so far as to making NPC organizations (eventually and limited to a basic low number. such as State, Mining, Industry, Delivery, Rogue only as examples) who would give out such missions and give something for PvPers to practice shooting at in the interim. Yes, I believe NPC's may be a slippery slope, but done properly can be very rewarding and add spice, and needed quanta. Automated resource gathering is stated on NQ's road map to completion, but how is that going to work and won't that just become a quick issue with such limited resources in the beginning? Obviously at some point there will have to be a 'reseeding' of the lower, most used tiers. Also, why not make current recipes become cheaper to make across the board with each step in a period of time? Every 3 or 6 months screws (as only one example) use less resources (maybe 3% or so) to make until it reaches a balanced state for limited resources vs influx of new players? Real world example: if we used oil as we did in the 70's, exact same technology all the way to today with no change the projected time we were to begin to run out of oil globally was 2000! We know this to be untrue today, OBVIOUSLY, but this fact can lay down a logical way to 'replant' or supplement our total resources as time progresses. In the same vein, a car in the 70's average mileage was 12 MPG (0.85 KPL) while today it is 25 MPG (10.62 KPL)!! Using this in a gradual, logical way I think can lead to a more fluid, growing, and, with automated resource gatherers, an enjoyably profitable experience for those who wish to mine. And YES PLEASE IT WAS BORING ENOUGH ALREADY FOR ME AS WELL Yes, a destroyed container should spill its content and/or have it's contents available to all. But I think ONLY if it is destroyed. A destroyed core wouldn't mean a destroyed container. You can shoot out an armored trucks tires, but still can't take the money. I love the recycler idea myself. Don't have the time or the skill to repair a ship? Recycle it! Afterall, over 32% of our things in the REAL WORLD are recycled. Not only that, HEY LOOK, another way to slow down resource D-Day and opens up yet another job/money making position ... The Salvage Yard. With all of these things introduced in a well thought out, well announced, series of patches, the costs of current industry now become more realistic. Last food for thought again automobiles.. When automobiles were first created, they WERE made in barns and garages by just one or two people. All of them. And that is a good example of where the current new player base and economy is at. 1880's... To throw back what I have heard... Sure, today we may not be able to just create a cell phone if we want one... but we sure can build a working phone with knowledge and time. And we also have ways of making money to buy a cell phone if we want it. The way I see it, the average new player will never become significant in any way in the game as it stands. And the Rockefellers in the game today will never be surpassed by the Fords of tomorrow, let alone the Musks of next week!

I understand what you are getting at as well as what the devs have mapped (publicly) and what they are shooting for. But my issue is am I expected to keep paying a sub and wait, hope, pray, for the changes to take place and until that time just pay to mine very limited and dwindling resources while making little to no money just for a craft to get offworld? I still believe other income for money should have been established before something that costs this much to the player. I still think improved PVP that could open up job opportunities should be in place so we players can pay each other directly for jobs. AND... I still believe the game has future potential, I just don't see a point in wasting RL money now waiting...

Not jumping for an argument here, just my view... Markets are cluttered and very laggy for me before the patch. Now it's likely to get far worse. I can't run out and get a new system, memory, or graphics card. Would have been nice to have that fixed first. I have no money for markets, T1 T2 ores are not profitable and will foreseeably get worse as more people dumb those for quick cash for the schematics. I had just started trying to BUY the ore to PREVENT me from mining before the drop. I don't have time in RL to spend hours mining for a few quanta. It would have been nice to have been eased into this a bit. Yea I knew a change was coming but not the extent of the cost. Besides this would have given time to fix the lag, setup more ways to obtain money, and maybe I could have afforded a schematic or two instead of being dead in the water. I don't expect anyone to care about my view, but I will speak my frustration and hope that before the end of the year, something shakes loose to make the game playable (FOR ME) again.

I understood the general idea of what they were going to try to do, but obviously I didn't understand how much this was going to cost to get my industry running again. I get they want us to use the markets more, however I was hoping that the lag near markets, as well as the clutter of abandoned structures, would have been taken care of before this. More people, even more lag. I'm not rich in RL and this is making the game lag so much near markets it is near unplayable for me now. I can't run out and upgrade my memory or my graphics. Also, my assembly efficiency is at 40% and the assembly handling at 44%, this makes me feel like it was all for nothing. It would have been nice if we could have had a chance to obtain some schematics or some way to ease the transition. But now, with no money to buy parts, no way to build more (decent) parts, and no way to sell anything for decent profit (I mean come on, Tier1 and Tier2 were already relatively cheap for the hours spent to get them.) Now with everyone trying to sell them to each other and very few people, if anyone at all actually, who has any incentive to BUY it, the markets tanking, I will have to spend hours mining for the price of one medium space engine. I'm not stupid, I don't expect anyone to care really that I am considering just quitting the game and trying for a refund, I am just venting my frustration over a situation that could have been handled much better IMO. I was really enjoying the game, but since I can't afford the many many hours of mining, and I can't afford upgrading my system to counter the horrible (for me) lag, there is little point to stay much longer if I can't make it work.

In lieu of player ran markets, this is a very inventive solution! There are arguments both for and against this, but to me, the fact it is player built and ran, all I can do now is say KUDOS!

Not trying to argue. At the end of the day the main topic of the thread is "Does NQ mean for it to be this way/Will it change" I stated my view. You stated yours. Now it's up to NQ to see what direction they want the game to go in, they have 1 vote for allowing it after modifications and 1 vote for disallowing it altogether. That's what I see.