Underhook

like i wasted my money on a 3 month subscription
to be more fun
still pretending its in beta                  admit its in alpha

Hi Everyone, its been a while since I last played (since  a bit after the 0.23 debacle when schematics were introduced). Here is what I noticed.
 
1.  Population is dead.
      Very few people around - even massive spaceports with tens of thousands of hours of build time invested are abandoned.
 
2. Why?  Well the game hasn't been fun since the fall season of beta launch (introduction of schematics in 0.23).
 
    - I am  80% builder,  20% pvp.  For a game that refuses to have PvE, a critical mass of population is required. Its not happening.
    - PvP is about blowing stuff up. 
    - Everything is way too expensive in terms of my time and effort to blow it up.
   -  No point to building if I can't share it with anyone or use it to make cheap ships
 
 My recommendation:
 
   3.  don't worry about inflation. If there are too many ships around, then they will become cannon fodder and the game will become fun again.
 
   4.  don't worry about too many tiles per person. Right now if a person owns half a planet there is still room for growth.
        - lower the tile taxes so I don't spend so much my time feeding the tax machine
        -  the tax is making it not effective to mine on any but the most productive tiles
        - hunting for a workable tile is not the game I want to play --->  I want to blow stuff up, not spend endless hours waiting for my scanner to give results. Not fun.
        - you can make taxes on tiles adjustable
        - each planet has a tile claimed percentage, so use that number to set the tax per tile. Popular planets will be more expensive, tax-wise.
 
   5.   Taxes on a tile should be the same as the bonus for daily log-in. 
 
   6.  The Devs seem to want to shape the behavior of players to log in every few days.
        -  extend your expectations to the sweet spot of logging on once per week (on the weekends when we have time).

   7.  The maintenance on automated mining is too short. I want it automated so I don't have to log in constantly. Once a week is good and make it cheap so I can build lots of cheap ships to blow up.
       - I am not going to destroy my expensive Ferrari, but I would be willing to take my low cost beater design into war.
 
  8. The problem with schematics isn't the cost, its the explosion of logistics to manage the darned things. 
     - Don't require the schematic to be in the actual machine - pull it from a central library that I own so I don't have to constantly look to see where it is last time I used it. 
 
 9. Math:
     - Try to stay away from hard limits - they don't work well in dynamic systems. 
     - Use differently shaped opposing forces (for example : a linear curve minus an exponential curve will shape the sweet spot of something)
 
10. Don't worry about rich people.
    - They will either: 
       a) quit out of boredom
       b) become benevolent sponsors and help others to grow  
       c) become evil geniuses that others will have to group up on to take down (sounds like fun)

 
 Overall make it fun! 
      Devs have gotten too carried away with putting fixed limitations on players'  behavior.  Give the economy some freedom and use self-adjusting sinks.
     
     Too many ships? --> Encourage war, theft and vandalism.
     Not enough ships?    --> Encourage building with cheaper material production. (lower taxes, increase mine production)
     Too many owned tiles?  -->  Encourage fights between neighbors or pollutions that lower mining yields on densely packed areas.
     Not  enough owned tiles? --> Lower taxes and increase yields
     
    Too much griefing ?  --> Give escaping a bigger chance with a stealth burst,  ECM,  or lower detection distance (increase background detector noise)
    Not enough hunting ?  --> Increase radar detection radius (lower the local background radiation interference)


 
Finally - respond to these posts with actual thoughts - brainstorm with your customers, not just amongst yourselves - or you won't have any left.

 
 
 

You are reading this message because you love this game. You may be disappointed or angry, but surely you love this game.
 
Why am I here?
1. One solar system with all planets and moons is more than enough to explore.
2. Planets are big enough.
3. Fly between planets with a true orbital mechanic.
4. We can mine and produce almost everything in the game.
5. The voxel magic is appealing.
6. Build my own ship as I can or buy/still ideas
7. Scripting is a universe within a universe.
 
Why am I disappointed?
 
1. Gamemasters don’t think enough about balance.
 
A. Overproduction. There is no efficient way to dispose of elements. PvP is definitely not enough. Factories also can have a limited number of installations. There is no way to remanufacture old or damaged elements.
 
B. Searching the asteroids takes too long. Surface mining is safer and faster in terms of time.
 
2. There is nothing to explore.
 
A. There are no ruins on the planets.
 
B. Why would I dig to a depth of 5 km if there's nothing there?
 
C. Where are abandoned space stations?
 
D. Why can’t you  hide the most “expensive” schematics somewhere  instead of selling them for quanta? I even agree to return all my schematics for free if you give me a chance to search them somewhere in the PvP space and haggle with others to get what I really need.
 
3. Collaboration is impossible without competition.
 
A. Quanta on my balance is not the right motivation.
 
B. There is no mechanic for taking over an occupied tile. It should be a way to pressure by reducing production or damage to constructs from surrounding tiles, as well as a mechanic to protect my own tile.
 
4. There are no basic things in the gameplay.
 
A. PvP is hard to implement, but there is PvE? Why is the universe sterile? Where are the interacting flora and fauna? There are no animals in the forest and oceans.  No risk of being killed by NPCs and no way of getting something vital from them.
 
B. Almost immortal avatar with no possibility of taking partial damage.
 
5. Focus on secondary objectives.
 
A. We are happy to live with some non-critical bugs. No need to spend too much effort fixing all of them. You will create them again with the new update. 
 
B. I’m desperately waiting for a voxel editor, but I’m quite happy to use printers. Please focus on the really important goals. Creativity in a void universe makes no sense.

Sorry to see you go Mega but I understand.

I remember flying around Alioth in a ship I built that I thought was soooo good.  3 small containers,  lol

25kl.  That's nothing ....  Just kidding, that's a lot of weight

Maybe I'm not up to exploiting MU's in PvP  space (there are no PvP planets yet) but that was the path I chose before Demeter hit.  I was pretty sure the good ore would only be on outer planets and I was pretty sure T1 prices would plummet.  I didnt count on everything plummeting though  :).  Anyway that was the point of my post, I took a risk, which might be a mistake.  Before Demeter I could afford to lose 10 freighters in a row, no problem.  Now, If I lose this one .... I'm bust.  Who knew, I didnt.

The problem with building with logic in mind is that we all end up building the same thing, logically there is a best design, when you are forced to have everything in certain places etc.  Probably my favourite thing in DU is the fantastic ship designs I see people come up with,  I love making ships.  If my ship has to look like everybody else's, I wont like building them anymore.

Thats not how the cone works my friend.
When you place the cone there is a circle.  The cone only tells the direction of the highest ore concentration within that circle and not the entire hex.  Dont feel bad, a large portion of the player base thought as you did.
You can watch my video here, it might help you.
 

After playing the game for more than a year I am more than convinced that the biggest flaw in the game is that people can do or become everything at the same time. This causes the economy never to balance out. It does not make sense that people who are the largest industry tycoons also mine their own ore. This way smaller setups or people who make money from ore, will never get their economy running. It will feel like a struggle forever.
 
How to prevent that everybody can do everything?
 
Just as in real life, limit what you can become. In other words, professions which limits the talents. If I choose to become an industry tycoon, I can only train talents related to my profession. The profitability should be related to the talents trained so that mining only will be profitable by having the right talents. People who become a miner, have mining talents to their availability. Etc, etc. This way it will never become profitable for industry tycoons to mine their own ore so it forces them to buy. When you think about this concept most likely more clever people then I can think of even more ways to split the talents and their professions.
 
You should be able to switch profession, this however will reset your talent points and return the talent points (of course with a penalty extracted from them because you switched).
 

A centralised controlled market is such a limiting factor in a player driven open world... seems like such a crazy design choice to me. Imagine there wasnt markets at all, and players created their own shops and shopping malls etc. That would give soooo much more opportunity for interaction.
 
Literally the only time ive interacted with anyone else in this game was if they walked to the market computer i was going to and i had to turn slightly to the next one, or a mod came and freed me from glitching through the floor... or of course crashing into others ships or space towers.
 
The mechanics make it so other players are literally obstacles to avoid on your way to the centralised market, not something to interact with.
 
 

Hello,
 
I am not here to talk about Demeter the pro/cons.
This is a personal list of improvement I see that could be added to the game and would change player life quality.
Some of the improvement are more for new players, the goal is to make the game less confusing for them.

Some of the improvement can be complex to develop, some others are easy.

Blueprints / Tokens
Blueprint should update while the elements in container change.
When you are preparing all the element to deploy your blueprint, you inspect the blueprint to see how many of each elements you need. While you are filling the needs, the blueprint should update.
  We should be able to deploy compacted construct without having to select the nanopack.
As we can have only 1 compacted construct and that the compacted construct can be only in the nanopack, there is no reason to have to select a specific container to deploy it.
  Add a shortcut to deploy the compacted construct
We could use the same shortcut (Alt+B), if the player has a compacted construct in his nanopack it deploy else it tries to compact the targeted construct
  The error message displayed when you try to deploy a blueprint from the wrong container should be more explicit.
If the blueprint you try to deploy is in the other container (not your current selected one) it should display a message like "Select your 'nanopack' to deploy this blueprint" and not "Invalid element".
  Allow blueprint to be deployed with element having less life.
The player should be able to use element having less life to deploy a blueprint. By default, if there is enough full-life element in the container it would take those, but if not and there is less-life element it should take them.
  Show the construct as an hologram when deploying
When deploying a blueprint, the player should be able to see an hologram of the construct to help him for placement. (more useful for static and space construct). This option could be deactivated via settings for performance improvement.
  We should be able to use a token without having to select the container it is in.
Currently we get a very confusing error message when trying to use a token from a container that is not the one selected. Many player don't understand what's happening.  

Surrogate
Add a filter "show owned only"
Display surrogate owner by the player
  Add a filter "show company only"
Display surrogate owned by companies the player is in.
  Allow multiple filter to be checked in same time
  Save selected filters
Player should not have to select filter every time he opens a surrogate, they should be saved client-side.
  Save station sorting selection 
By default every time, surrogate are sorted by "most used". If the player want to have them sorted alphabetical he has to do it on every search.
  Add possibility to save a search as bookmarks
For people that use a lot VR, they search for the same names/filters all the time. It would be great to be able to save the search as a bookmark. The player could simply click on it and it would load his saved search. (search, filters and sorting)
  We should be able to use "Surrogate VR Station" in VR to switch station.
A player in VR could be able to use a surrogate station while being in VR. It would prevent to have to exit and enter again when we want to switch Station. Of course the initial station will always be the point of origin.  
 
Piloting
Add an option for player to start in 3rd person view then entering in a piloting seat.
Most of the player are piloting ship in 3rd person view. This could be done by adding a way to switch the view in Lua or via game settings.  
 
Mining Units
Add Lua API to it
We need a way to manage the MU in a construct as any other industry unit.
  Available Mining Unit charge should be displayed for player
Currently if you want to know this information, you have to open a MU. This information could be displayed on the right of the player's quanta.
Charges  3/8        Balance 1 000 000 h
  Add a possibility to skip mini-game
Many player just want to apply the default calibration percentage to the mining unit, they don't look for the additional rock.
It would be great to have an option to apply the default percentage without having to load the mini-game, in that case no rock would pop and no bonus would be applied.
  Notification should contain the MU element name
It would help to keep a track of which MU has been calibrated in a specific construct when you have to manage multiple MU for an organization.
  Notifications should have a specific filter for MU
The player should be able to display only notification related to MU.
 
Avatar
Keep auto-run enable when opening a window
All user interface opened while auto-running should not stop the auto-run. Currently I can't check a market price while auto-running.
  All locked screen should be unlock with ESC
Currently if you are locking the screen with "TAB" you can't unlock it with "ESC". But if you are locking the screen with the chat, then you can't unlock it with "TAB" and you have to press 2x "ESC".
  Allow player to close channels
Chat interface has too many tabs. We should be able to close them so only 1-3 tabs would be displayed. For every channels we should be able to choose if we want it to display when a new message come in the channel or not.
  [19.12.2021] Add time to whisper chat
When you get a message from someone, sometime you miss it, there is no way to know when this person sent you the message. (5 minutes?, 5 hours?)

  Map
Split constructs in 3 sections (dynamic, static, space)
For people that have access to many constructs the list is sometime very long and hard to find a specific construct.
  Add a way to hide a construct from the list
Some construct have no interest (multi-core building, showroom ship, ect...). We should be able to hide some constructs from the map drop-down with an option to show hidden construct.
  Keep the previous selected tile filter.
It's mainly when you are scanning tiles, you want to display your scan results. But every time you open your map, you have to go and select again the scan result filter.  
Add a search
Most of the time we know exactly which construct we are looking for. Instead of having to go though all the construct list, if we could search for it it would help us a lot. Of course the search should stay if you close the map and open it again.
  Add a RDMS right for organization's constructs to allow member to see constructs in the map
Currently only legates can see constructs on the construct list. But sometime you give right to an org construct to a member and he has no way to locate it on the map.
 
Building
Allow player to switch engines / weapons
It would be nice to be able to switch engine of same type/size on a ship. Example switching "Basic Atmospheric Engine L" to a "Advanced Military Atmospheric Engine L".
It would make the life easier so we don't have to deal with the placement, links and tags. Of course the applied talents would not be saved.
  Add a shortcut to start a new link from previous element
This is more when you are setting up factory, but can be also the case when you are linking your engine or containers. It would be nice to be able to have a shortcut that will start a new link from the previous element.
Example: I want to link 10 engines to the same fuel tank, I start a link from the fuel tank and then go on the back of my ship. Link first engine, hit the shortcut, link the second one, ect...
Same if I have to setup 5 Metalwork Line for a specific production.
  Add a shortcut to swap link direction
This is more for the factory but could be also used for button with PB. Would be nice to be able to change the link from "OUT" to "IN" or vice-versa.
  Increase the jetpack speed
When you have to go through all you L core to make a link or something else it takes a long time. Would be nice to be able to fly very fast with a modifier key. This speed could be configured in the settings.
  [17.12.2021] Add an option to delete voxels
With some limitation (max 3m³), but being able to delete last voxel in a construct we want to remove. I will reduce number of time we have to ask NQ to help us when we want to remove a construct.

  Effects and Sounds
Add possibility to remove certain effects
For some people effect in the factory are not needed or glowing rocks are glowing too much. Would be nice to be able to choose which effect we want or not. 
In some area there is too many effects, it's lower the game immersion.
  Add more sound channels
It would be nice to be able to reduce the "industry sound" or other noises while maintaining the sound level of other sources.
  Add color filters for color blind people
Some colors are very difficult to see in the game. Also the Nvidia filters are not supported so we can't use them to help us.
 
Missions & Jobs
[18.12.2021] When creating a mission, the parcel containers for the origin/destination should be sorted alphabetically.
If you have multiple parcel containers (10+ in my case) you have to search for the one you want to select.
  [18.12.2021] The weight of the package should be displayed in the "Reward & Collateral" section.
There is 3 parameters to take in consideration when you are setting the reward/collateral: the distance to travel, the value of the package and his weight. (warp cell calculation)
  [21.12.2021] Increase the number of mission player can create.
Being limited to 3 missions is not enough. If you start to use that to create content and give mission to carry your goods, you need to be able to create a lot of them.
As the mission system is based on reputation, if you are creating too many mission that no one will pickup then your stats will be bad.
  [21.12.2021] Add a notification when someone answer your job.
Actually you have to check all the time your job to be sure that you don't have miss an answer.
  [21.12.2021] Add the date/time of message posted in communication.
Actually we are not able to know when someone as answer our job, as the game is worldwide and we are not all in the same timezone it's hard to follow without this information.

Why let people put container cluster constructs at any of the markets? Just give them a locker or guild bank sort of thing in the markets to get rid of some of the container cores. Why even have that as a thing if you could just store stuff at the market without it? 

Well I think I'm going to mark HQ and disappear for another 8 months.  I've been mining Chromite and Petalite since the update and have sold 2,000 Lithium.  Prices are so dire it's not even worth refining, in the case for Chromium and Petalite going with buy orders you'll get the same as just selling the Ore, for Chromite more for the Ore than the Pure. Utter waste of paying for refining schematics.
 
It cost me 4 Mil in Warp Cells to just get form Jago to Alioth Market 6.
 
I've spent about 60 Mil to get up and running and see no way of making that money back in the short term let alone paying for the 5 tiles I'm using for mining.  The idea of getting more tiles on another planet for some T1 or T2 Ore is just too painful to think about and I'm not going to waste my time because IF I did this I'm sure those prices also would be as bad.

Prices for Chromite and Petalite have dropped 50% since update and still falling and as soon as you reduce your price the next person does the same... This tax system should have been put off so people could at least get used to the system, markets settle and you know where you are.

I'm broke.  I won't be paying my tax monday therefore all the time and effort I've spent placing and setting up mining units will be unusable further preventing me from making any money.  I don't see where my game goes from here.

The game is dead for me at the moment.  I've crossed paths with about 5 people at markets and nobody is buying.

NQ is just forcing the bulk of players back to Sanctuary.  Which in time will become another Lag Fest for new players.  Nice work.

I dont have much quanta so I, like many others it seems have been selling ore.  I tried selling refined metals but they are even harder to sell.
There is a shortage of buyers so I have had to sell ore to buyers.  I decided it was time to do some math.
I have 4 hex currently producing T2 and T3 ore.
My estimated income per week is 12.5 mil less tax is 8.5 mil.  I'm not going to count calibration ore as it should roughly offset the MU that randomly turn themselves off.
After tax of 4 mil I'm left with 8.5 mil.  I have claimed a hex with a small amount of T4 and another with some T5 (currently HQ).
So, my next purchase will be a Rare MU for 23 mil.  So, thats 3 weeks away.  Income should then rise by 4.5 mil allowing for tax.  So total 13 mil.
My next purchase after that will be an Exotic MU .  Thats 64 mil.  So, another 5 weeks.
Then I'll be set.  So, this is based on current prices.  Mu prices might drop but so might ore prices.
 
The thing is.  I will not be purchasing anything from anybody (other than 2 MU) for the next 8 weeks at least.
If, many other players are like me, then, thats a long time with little economic activity.
Its also maybe going to be pretty boring, unfortunately.
 

Player run game
Simple     NQ make changes and the players run   
 
EDIT.
OK, so I actually read the OP's post now.  Yes I think youre about right.

I dont have much quanta so I, like many others it seems have been selling ore.  I tried selling refined metals but they are even harder to sell.
There is a shortage of buyers so I have had to sell ore to buyers.  I decided it was time to do some math.
I have 4 hex currently producing T2 and T3 ore.
My estimated income per week is 12.5 mil less tax is 8.5 mil.  I'm not going to count calibration ore as it should roughly offset the MU that randomly turn themselves off.
After tax of 4 mil I'm left with 8.5 mil.  I have claimed a hex with a small amount of T4 and another with some T5 (currently HQ).
So, my next purchase will be a Rare MU for 23 mil.  So, thats 3 weeks away.  Income should then rise by 4.5 mil allowing for tax.  So total 13 mil.
My next purchase after that will be an Exotic MU .  Thats 64 mil.  So, another 5 weeks.
Then I'll be set.  So, this is based on current prices.  Mu prices might drop but so might ore prices.
 
The thing is.  I will not be purchasing anything from anybody (other than 2 MU) for the next 8 weeks at least.
If, many other players are like me, then, thats a long time with little economic activity.
Its also maybe going to be pretty boring, unfortunately.
 

I dont have much quanta so I, like many others it seems have been selling ore.  I tried selling refined metals but they are even harder to sell.
There is a shortage of buyers so I have had to sell ore to buyers.  I decided it was time to do some math.
I have 4 hex currently producing T2 and T3 ore.
My estimated income per week is 12.5 mil less tax is 8.5 mil.  I'm not going to count calibration ore as it should roughly offset the MU that randomly turn themselves off.
After tax of 4 mil I'm left with 8.5 mil.  I have claimed a hex with a small amount of T4 and another with some T5 (currently HQ).
So, my next purchase will be a Rare MU for 23 mil.  So, thats 3 weeks away.  Income should then rise by 4.5 mil allowing for tax.  So total 13 mil.
My next purchase after that will be an Exotic MU .  Thats 64 mil.  So, another 5 weeks.
Then I'll be set.  So, this is based on current prices.  Mu prices might drop but so might ore prices.
 
The thing is.  I will not be purchasing anything from anybody (other than 2 MU) for the next 8 weeks at least.
If, many other players are like me, then, thats a long time with little economic activity.
Its also maybe going to be pretty boring, unfortunately.
 

I dont have much quanta so I, like many others it seems have been selling ore.  I tried selling refined metals but they are even harder to sell.
There is a shortage of buyers so I have had to sell ore to buyers.  I decided it was time to do some math.
I have 4 hex currently producing T2 and T3 ore.
My estimated income per week is 12.5 mil less tax is 8.5 mil.  I'm not going to count calibration ore as it should roughly offset the MU that randomly turn themselves off.
After tax of 4 mil I'm left with 8.5 mil.  I have claimed a hex with a small amount of T4 and another with some T5 (currently HQ).
So, my next purchase will be a Rare MU for 23 mil.  So, thats 3 weeks away.  Income should then rise by 4.5 mil allowing for tax.  So total 13 mil.
My next purchase after that will be an Exotic MU .  Thats 64 mil.  So, another 5 weeks.
Then I'll be set.  So, this is based on current prices.  Mu prices might drop but so might ore prices.
 
The thing is.  I will not be purchasing anything from anybody (other than 2 MU) for the next 8 weeks at least.
If, many other players are like me, then, thats a long time with little economic activity.
Its also maybe going to be pretty boring, unfortunately.
 

Player run game
Simple     NQ make changes and the players run   
 
EDIT.
OK, so I actually read the OP's post now.  Yes I think youre about right.

Thank you.  I did not realise that.  I thought we all drew from the same pool.  

If I understand this correctly:
NQ gambled that they could threaten non playing (paying) players that if they didnt come back they would lose everything.
The gamble failed as only a few came back.
So NQ said OK, you called our bluff and they threw in their hand.
So, they are going to let people keep their stuff in the hopes they come back when the game gets out of alpha.
This is also the strongest indication that there will not be a full wipe when we leave alpha.  Even though I think its probably essential for the game.
It also shows that NQ really has no plan that looks further than a week ahead.

This platform is right over market 6.  I very nearly ran into it as it spawned in when I was about 100 mtrs from it.  My understanding is that dynamic constructs are not allowed over markets, is that right?
Anyway in the picture you can see I'm standing a little over 900mtrs from the market and the platform is clearly seen.  Strange thing is that when I'm standing next to the market the platform becomes invisible.  The platform does not become visible until I move around 300 mtrs away.  Anyway its a menace, can we have it removed please?

There is more then one structure up there.
And ironically I am unable the rapport them because the shield thing is preventing me from landing and selecting the "Rapport abuse" option.
 
[removed images to free up space]
 
 
 

Are you really surprised at this point?