kulkija

Good points
I agree by 100%
What you wrote, made me think this:
 
I think we all agree about current problems. Direction of development is off
 
If NQ really does listen us , are those problems on us?
 
This I like to say to NQ:
Respect original vision and go towards it.
Ignore proposals which  may lead to wrong direction.

From pvp to the topic.
 
This new schematics system and more tedious industry will hurt pvp too.

the only fix to the schematic that NQ will allow is for you to purchase additional alts until you meet you SC requirements 
 
 
 
what does NQ care about giving us the quanta back for purchased schematics, they are going to wipe the game anyway. Its just a carrot

While I can see your argument, I also feel you are missing the point. It's not about "another ingredient".

But let's, for argument's sake, go with that for amoment.

If I need Pure Iron in the recipe and it runs out:
 
Open the input container Drop more Pure Iron in Close container  
If  the runs on the schematic run out:
Open the industry element interface Click "Stop"  Click the "Schemtic Bank" tab Drag the new schematic to the element Click the "Schemtic Selection" tab Select the relevant item to make Click the "Production" tab Click "Start" Close the interface  
This whole thing is, yet again, NQ not doing any actual analysis of the process they are changing and how their changes will affect the user experience. It is coding devs doing what a game designers and/or UI/UX designer should be doing under control of a project manager who gets the final call on whether it all makes sense and should question anything that doesn not.
 
The lack of a proper vetting process is possibly the biggest issue NQ has in how they operate. And I say that because if an actual project manager wuodl be involved here, this would not even have passed the design stage, becaus ethe procerss is not working.
 
I get what NQ is trying to do and can see why they are, but the way they go abaout it (ance again) just makes things worse and not better. ANd I'm sorry to say, but a common factor in all these mistakes is starting to emerge. Not laying blame there though, but I am laying blame with whomever is not managing this properly.

The game may need more Quanta sinks, but i don't think this is the place to accomplish that.
 
I thought the goal here was to "fix" what was broken about schematics.
 
But instead, it seems like they've just taken the opportunity to add another layer of time and quanta sinks to the process.
 
Schematics were already doing their job as a Quanta sink for industry, nothing was broken there.  All we needed was a better way to manage them.  Which wasn't addressed.
 
Why turn schematics into an expendable resource that has to be constantly restocked.  Industry already has that in the form of basic resources.  We can gather resources, we can buy and sell them on the market, and we can use them to make more stuff.
 
If you think the resource cost to make stuff wasn't high enough, then increase the amount of resources that are needed to craft stuff. 
 
We don't need another layer of tedium.

@NQ Do not implement this change.

This I do not understand.
 
We were  supposed to enter totally empty alien planet in a spaceship and start there from the scratch.
In this original scenario only way to proceed is to be self-sufficient.
Bigger goals maybe by small groups or later in orgs, but self-sufficient still.
 
Now we got tens of fully furnished markets all over the planets in this whole solar system. Who build them. Not us; which we were supposed to build.
 
If ever we can find a new solar system or new planet, will those be full of Market buildings even before one human has stepped down from a ship after finding it?
How to colonies new planets if we can not be self sufficient?
 
This handhelding Themepark game is not what I opted in at Kickstarter.
 
Before 0.23 there was lots of in-game interactions. Game was alive and fun. Schematics killed all of that. 
 
Interactions between players will newer happen by force. No way!
NQ: Stop this interactions by force nonsense
 
Interactions will only happen if we, the players, choose to do so.
 
Edit:
ps. How will using markets create interactions between players???
I can do most of my business anonymously and remotely. Even if I visit marketplace I newer interact with a player "because doing business." Current markets just do not need or enable player-interactions.
 
Before 0.23 we had lots of group-game-play operations, Mining ops, Hauling stuff for org members (way before missions), building together, helping to fix ships, rescue missions, manufacturing for other org members, you name it, we did it.
None of those required interventions by Aphelia nor using Markets.
 
We avoided markets because of all that junk and lag there. Some created own in-org markets by using dispensers in a creative way.
I created small factory and org members started to bring in ore and I manufactured (only) what they needed.
Our small org had only 3 factories, other members were using our services.
Building "‘build-it-all’ Mega factory" was in our plans as a Shared Org - project. What was wrong in that???
 
We did not need guidance by Aphelia or NQ.
 
Who ever said there was not enough interactions before 0.23 did lye.
 
Secondly:
 ‘build-it-all’ factory manufactures nothing. Nothing at all. Running that kind of factory is a huge effort which only few players want to do.
‘build-it-all’ factory actually creates interactions and enables group-game-play. Manufacturing only few items and selling them at markets kills interactions.
Also factories mostly produce elements which have no use as they are when they appear into container. Those elements only enables further more advanced game-play such as PVP, ship building (both for pvp and other ships) . etc.
 
 

Sounds like another step away from player driven economy.
Producing items consume schematics copies.
Copying schematics will cost "a small fee".
This will create new TAX
 
Yet another "small fee".... When combing all situations where Aphelia collects those so called "small fees" total becomes wery big.
 
Great TAX simulator
 
 

I'm not convinced that recurring schematics on pures is a good idea, at least for the first iteration.
 
It will just add continual grind for everyone who wants to produce anything (not just major industrialists), increase final element prices across the board (reducting the value of other quanta faucets like missions and daily income), depreciate the value of ore further (as the cost of using the ore is a combination of the price of ore plus the refining cost), and further reduce players notion of self-sufficiency for their end-products (as it will continually take up schematic-queue slots). Unless NQ are expecting that Pure Producer becomes an industry specialist pathway (given the number of talents allocated to this) - but its not clear that industrialists will change from starting with ore, and its hardly an exciting gameplay loop.
 
I would have been inclined to just have schematics for the end products in the first instance, and then assess the impact.

This is sadly a recurring theme. It is not what DU needs.

Really?!
I think this is the last straw!
How much notice will we have until you implement this?
 
Yep, if you implement this, I won't be paying any subs for this game and I'll take my alts with me.

NQ... please don't push this one out.  This feels like .23 all over again.  We got used to schematics.  Was anyone STILL complaining enough to really warrant this redo?   You keep talking about game balance, but I'm playing on my own and doing just fine.  You keep nerfing things (still ticked I had to add all those extra adjustors to my ship and junk it up).  Now your going make industry need regular maintenance.  I already spend the first 20-30 minutes a day playing checking mining units.  I HATE THAT.  This will only add to it.  Either dump the schematics altogether or leave it alone.  I don't speak up on the forums often, but I'm telling you... you push this one out, kiss your remaining player base goodbye.

@NQ Do not implement this change.

@NQ Do not implement this change.

This I do not understand.
 
We were  supposed to enter totally empty alien planet in a spaceship and start there from the scratch.
In this original scenario only way to proceed is to be self-sufficient.
Bigger goals maybe by small groups or later in orgs, but self-sufficient still.
 
Now we got tens of fully furnished markets all over the planets in this whole solar system. Who build them. Not us; which we were supposed to build.
 
If ever we can find a new solar system or new planet, will those be full of Market buildings even before one human has stepped down from a ship after finding it?
How to colonies new planets if we can not be self sufficient?
 
This handhelding Themepark game is not what I opted in at Kickstarter.
 
Before 0.23 there was lots of in-game interactions. Game was alive and fun. Schematics killed all of that. 
 
Interactions between players will newer happen by force. No way!
NQ: Stop this interactions by force nonsense
 
Interactions will only happen if we, the players, choose to do so.
 
Edit:
ps. How will using markets create interactions between players???
I can do most of my business anonymously and remotely. Even if I visit marketplace I newer interact with a player "because doing business." Current markets just do not need or enable player-interactions.
 
Before 0.23 we had lots of group-game-play operations, Mining ops, Hauling stuff for org members (way before missions), building together, helping to fix ships, rescue missions, manufacturing for other org members, you name it, we did it.
None of those required interventions by Aphelia nor using Markets.
 
We avoided markets because of all that junk and lag there. Some created own in-org markets by using dispensers in a creative way.
I created small factory and org members started to bring in ore and I manufactured (only) what they needed.
Our small org had only 3 factories, other members were using our services.
Building "‘build-it-all’ Mega factory" was in our plans as a Shared Org - project. What was wrong in that???
 
We did not need guidance by Aphelia or NQ.
 
Who ever said there was not enough interactions before 0.23 did lye.
 
Secondly:
 ‘build-it-all’ factory manufactures nothing. Nothing at all. Running that kind of factory is a huge effort which only few players want to do.
‘build-it-all’ factory actually creates interactions and enables group-game-play. Manufacturing only few items and selling them at markets kills interactions.
Also factories mostly produce elements which have no use as they are when they appear into container. Those elements only enables further more advanced game-play such as PVP, ship building (both for pvp and other ships) . etc.
 
 

Sounds like another step away from player driven economy.
Producing items consume schematics copies.
Copying schematics will cost "a small fee".
This will create new TAX
 
Yet another "small fee".... When combing all situations where Aphelia collects those so called "small fees" total becomes wery big.
 
Great TAX simulator
 
 

Sounds like another step away from player driven economy.
Producing items consume schematics copies.
Copying schematics will cost "a small fee".
This will create new TAX
 
Yet another "small fee".... When combing all situations where Aphelia collects those so called "small fees" total becomes wery big.
 
Great TAX simulator
 
 

<sarcasm>
Well, I suppose this will produce some hard numbers to throw at the noisy ones that for some reason think the game is having issues with privately owned mega-factories... because this is still apparently an issue for someone...
</sarcasm>
 
...Anyways, if they don't want to annoy everyone like they did in .23, they'll need some manner of transition period where both new and old schematics work, and it wouldn't hurt to make it so players don't need to run to an aphelia-structure to get this done (even if it costs just as much).

Alas, speaking of fatal flaws, we have 2 conflicting versions on the rez mechanicz, both from NQ themselves:
 
Number 1 is the "EvE way":
"When you get killed in Dual Universe, your body is destroyed but your consciousness is transferred to a Resurrection Node, where your body is reconstructed and you get a nude-clean fresh start; you can only spawn back at the //nearest// of the nodes you are linked to and conditions, such as owner authorization or organization membership, will apply."
 
It's actually an older version of the rez mechanics, no longer documented if I am not mistaken.
 
Number 2 is the "Multiverse way":
"Quantum Branching is at the heart of the Resurrection Node technology and is based on the “Many Worlds Interpretation” of quantum mechanics. At any moment, in particular, when you die violently, several versions of the universe coexist in parallel. Scientists working on EPR pair experiments unexpectedly found a way to instantly switch one universe with another, and in particular to switch the universe where you die with another one where everything would be exactly the same, except that your body position would be inside a Resurrection Node. The amount of matter to switch increases the energy cost of the operation, so RN teleport only the minimal set of mass to get the desired effect, which is... your naked body. A Resurrection Node is paired with your body and cannot be used by somebody else. It will make you virtually immortal, even if natural aging will probably get you out of the loop at some point."
 
This one came later with the tech lore; it may replace the first one.
 
In both case however, we are living people encased in ugly suits; the artificial versions are the "surrogates" from VR pods, which look indistinguishable from the living, increasing confusion...

Sounds like another step away from player driven economy.
Producing items consume schematics copies.
Copying schematics will cost "a small fee".
This will create new TAX
 
Yet another "small fee".... When combing all situations where Aphelia collects those so called "small fees" total becomes wery big.
 
Great TAX simulator
 
 

It must be hard to be NQ though when it comes to feedback because there are so many different types of players with contradictory ideas.  This was a core part of the original  vision after all!
 
Look at the main forum page.  I can see a thread which says there should be no PvP and another suggesting taking away all the safe zones.
 
The fact that loads of different player types can play different games together is one of the things I love about the original vision.  It's one of the things that gave eve a very long life.
 
But the skill here is listening to all of the feedback, balancing all the different wants and needs and making something which appeals to everyone.  At the moment we get a mix of great things which do this (asteroids, missions for example) and things which everyone hates (schematics when announced, construct limits and territory taxes) combined with things which undermine past gains (mining units undoing the gains from asteroids, failure to iterate fast in missions breaking the economy, wipe talk drivignaway users, etc).

Clearly NQ is not following their vision. And here we are.
 
How many times in history people have said that "it is not possible," Man can not fly, earth is flat, Columbus shall newer go west...

Good points
I agree by 100%
What you wrote, made me think this:
 
I think we all agree about current problems. Direction of development is off
 
If NQ really does listen us , are those problems on us?
 
This I like to say to NQ:
Respect original vision and go towards it.
Ignore proposals which  may lead to wrong direction.

Hey there, I took my time, so sadly this will now get a bit longer, but I try to structure this.

Actual gameplay with the new system and a few questions about it:
 
Assuming this is meant for orgs with multiple actual people in it (not alts accounts).
IndyDude is the guy with all the talents for the machines, unless other orgmembers also have those talents (and rights) he is the guy checking any machines at intervalls to see which schematics are low and needed. He then has to communicate what is missing via discord or other outside of the game tools, as neither jobs/missions, nor the D in RDMS, not in game social tools works properly for this. Org members then make the schematics, what is still missing is bought. Hopefully the org wallet can be used for the fees. IndyDude takes thses schematics for his next check walk and refills what is needed. With current mechanics he would have to stop any running machines (even running but idle due to missing schematic) to place these.
Just as a reminder for people who do little industry, this means walking up to every machine, activate it; click schematics (to check); click production again; stop machine; click schematics again; insert new schematics, click production again; click start, exit UI (escape);
If you wonder why I used semi colons most times in that sentence, at those points the user has to wait for the server response, this can take some time. Anyway, all of this, you do for every single machine that needs a schematic in the future. Every few days.

Dear @NQ-Nyota , did I get that right? I am sorry, but this is hard to put into an aphelia question.

Is this really helpful, more fun and engaging? Also, anybody wondering how it will hit me, I have alts. So while I still have the annoying job of IndyDude above, the organising is a lot easier for me. Almost like the guy creating it was thinking "but at least it should give an advantage to people with alt-accounts.

Yet another per account time gate mechanic
 
You want to limit what a single character can do, yet when you limit things, you limit them as per account time gated. I will use this so often now, I shorten it to PATG. Talents are PATG, which is kinda alright, we got used to it. And while eve does it, mane other games don’t. The "default system" is to get talents by actually doing something. Here it is passive. Just need an account, it gets talents, passively, PATG. In other games you play a different character to experience another aspect of the game, like a different class. In DU, you just have an alt to get more passive gain, since there is little active gameplay needed.

Mining was made PATG, I used to not mine my own ore, but now that it is PATG, I do it (I still buy, but I get my own, too). It is a once per week annoying tedium while I watch a movie to calibrate, but compared to how much time I needed to actively actually do something in the past, it is easy money. Almost like PATG and less active gameplay leads to more people doing everything a little on the side.

Now you make industry another PATG.
 
What is next, missions? Wait, they are already PATG. Were right from the start. Fun thing is the player missions are PATG, too. I would have to use alt accounts to make better use of the player mission system. It is still defunct for most purposes though.

Which leaves, piloting, pvp, lua. Will we need limited charges for them soon, too?

Big factories need server resources! No, shush.
 
People, even when given an easier way to have a bigger factory, Hell if I sold tokens of my factory for 1 quanta, do not lead to more server stress for a simple reason, people do not produce more than needed. Even with all talents, why would my machines making, for example, container L run, if the ore is worth more than the container? The amount of things produced is the amount of things wanted/bought by players. 
Limit factories to a size that only goes through up to 1000kl of ore per day? Any factory currently needing 5 times that will be reduced in size, and new factories will be built by other players to meet demand. Unless you try to tell me that if there are less big factories, people will magically say "well, I could make profit with thing X, because prices increased, but then I would offset the amount of server cost saved by having closed the big factories!".
Limit of machines per account, per core? All just cause more tedium without "solving" anything. Why do people dislike large factories? Mine is out in the empty desert where it doesn’t hurt you.

You would save more server costs by stopping to park your ships at market 6 and the exchange to "showcase" them.
 
Increase of player interaction

Is checking the market interface to buy and sell items anonymously really player interaction? 

People will specialize!
 
Even if, what about it? Current system: John, Jim, Bob all do industry, all make adjustors, wings and engines, bring them to the market and people sell them anonymously.
New system, John makes Adjustors, Jim makes wings, Bob makes engines. They bring their goods to the market, sell them anonymously. Buyers don’t even notice. If something becomes more profitable, like engines. John lets schematics run out and invests in engines. Swapping "specialisation" gets easier with the new schematics, and specialisation is pointless anyway, I mean all buying and selling is done via a dry UI anyway.

Some good points though
 
To be fair, the new system is nicer for new players. It will also enable again the core group of people who left with .23, small pre-existing groups who set up a base someplace. Because even in an MMO, a group of 10 people should be able to have a mostly automous base, without needing to "interact" with the anonymous market all the time.

So what do I suggest?
 
If you already have to implement this feature, can you at least reduce the tedium and implement it with some QoL and maybe even fun right from the start?

-central schematic element per building, a "schematic registry" which was already asked for when .23 was announced. A single place to check which schematics are missing, what numbers are available etc. And from which machines can draw a schematic if needed. That means orgs can just ask members to check it from time to time when their queue is empty, produce what is needed and refill the schematics that are low.
No talents required. Just RDMS for that element to "view contents" and "put item into container".
No daily "check each machine manually, stop and start them to refill"

-Now that schematics are not a "lasts forever" item, you could make them occasionally be found. For:
*finished missions (aphelia or public player made)
*asteroid mining
*even a tiny chance when calibrating
*in nq spawned space wrecks
etc
 
-redo broken/inconsistent crafting material needs, tiers etc, I made a post about it.
 
-Instead of heavily timegating schematic creation, combine them with activites. Speed up the queue, give "copy credits" for certain types of schematic etc, for things you track anyway, via the achievement system. space engines for high altitude flight (thin air), higher/bigger atmo engines for atmo flights (Daisy cutter), AGG for having a big ship (shipyard master), cosmetics for using a lot of cosmetics (green house).
Or of course, any other form of active gameplay you can think of.


And about the player interaction:
Despite Entropy, the man who plays so much he doesn’t know what elements are in the game thinking that player markets are only a niche thing (a niche thing with all the top spots in the VR most visited list), player markets would actually mean that players go to other players.
Crazy concept, I know, in a game where every player makes his own base anyway, there would be a reason for players to visit such other bases, and not just fly to the same old NPC building and interact with a bloody terminal and stare at the same green UI.

COPYING
 
Players will have access to a new interface in which they’ll be able to copy batches of schematic copies from Aphelia’s Master Copies. Players will have access to several copying slots that can run simultaneously and will each be able to create a batch of schematic copies. So nothing changes and we still need master copies from a NPC
 
Copying schematic batches will cost time and a small amount of quanta. For example, a batch for smaller tier-one elements or tier-one honeycomb may only cost a couple of thousand quanta to copy, while the most expensive and larger schematics may cost a couple of million. Different types of batches will also give a different number of schematic copies per batch. For example, copying a schematic batch for a large high-tier element may only give you two or three individual copies, but copying a tier-one honeycomb schematic may give you a batch of 25 or more. So you did not remove a money sink but added another one, and added a time sink to it while you were going?
 
CONSUMING
 
Schematic copies will be consumed by the industry unit when an item is made. You will input schematic copies into the schematic banks in the same way as before. Apart from some interface changes to accommodate the new system, the industry unit’s function remains the same. So beside the money sink, the copies will deteriorate, and in the end everyone will still use the master copies as they do not?
 
However, there are a few important points to note:
 
Not everything will require a schematic  
Parts will no longer require schematics at all. This could be subject to change, but we’re experimenting with it in the first release. Subject to change, with other words, this will be implemented later?
 
Additionally, decorative elements, including doors, will not need schematics, though some exceptions may apply. Some exceptions, just do or don’t, why exceptions?
 
You won’t need a schematic for every individual item  
We have many items in Dual Universe. There are types of elements, with different tiers and variations, and all of our honeycomb, scrap, and materials. We felt it was too frustrating and demanding to need a schematic for each item. So we will get a single schematic for all honeycombs, and something similar for other groups of stuff?
 
We want more flexibility and ease for our players. We’re creating schematic copies for each category of items based on factors such as their tier and size, rather than each item in particular. Is this for the master schematics too and can they be used in industry?
 
For example, you could have a schematic copy that makes large tier-three elements and use it to create all types of corresponding items such as large tier-three weapons, engines, industry units, etc. Similarly, for example, you would only need one schematic for all tier-one pure honeycombs and another for all tier-one product honeycombs. Sounds nice but how is deteriorating with respect to produced items? Specially with honeycombs where I normally produce shiploads at once, is deteriorating per run or per item?
 
Finally, you’ll be able to list your schematic copies for sale on the market, enabling you to manage your stocks by buying and selling schematic copies. Will it be shown how many uses are left?
 
CONCLUSION
 
To summarize, our goals for the new system are:
 
For personal and smaller industries, players can make schematic copies for a relatively minor cost and run a small number of industry units. This brings back small, ‘backyard’ industries of convenience. Note that you can still have a lot of machines, but the number of schematic copies you can copy by yourself will limit the number of machines that can run simultaneously. This goal will not be reached, with the current schematics I am already working on a large industrial complex that just runs fine, the new deteriorating stuff just is tedious and irritating as I now also need to keep that in watch. Also the system will in the end cost more quanta as a schematic now is a one time cost, and with the copy system it’s a recurring cost. New system and old system are both not working, still not going for research or deleting this stuff?  
For larger scales, it will require player cooperation, making larger industrialists purchase schematics from the markets or rely on friends and organizations to generate schematic copies for their factories. No it wont, if time is the issue people will just and only buy masters and use those, there is not a word that those cannot be used in industry, new nerf incoming?  
Schematic copies are more flexible and easier to handle. You don’t need a schematic for every item. You can use the same schematic to make one of many different items. This limits the total number of schematics, making managing them simpler. Nope, people will still need the same production units as they are needed to make the parts and therefore the same number of schematics are needed for every piece of industry that actually needs a new schematic. As long as LUA cannot change the produced product in an industrial unit with a simple click whole industrial setups will remain needed.  
Copying time, batch sizes, number of copying slots, and quanta cost can be more easily adjusted and modified based on feedback and metrics. Uhm, we now have non of this, so why did life get better with this new minigame added?  
 
Conclusion:
Industry will become even more tedious and time and quanta consuming then it already is. NQ has developed a new system and forgot to listen to all the remarks already given. An addition like research that would open a whole area of playing field is neglected again.
Time and quanta sink added and this will not bring cooperation as things can still be done individually with not so much added effort.
Will the goals of NQ be reached with this: No
Will this idea help players having more clean playtime: No
Will it stimulate cooperation more then the current system or the pre 0.23 system: No
Is another mini game added like mining calibration that just costs time: Yes
Will this enhance bot and exploit use: Yes
Will this enhance goldsellers: Yes
Will this help global economy: indecisive
Overall added value to Dual Universe: None