Eruend the SkyReaper

You know what else kills PvP? Death cubes. death cubes for days.
I'd be more sympathetic to PvP players if the meta wasn't just "lol, I'm so good and orriginal at making ships, I made a box that goes pew pew"
Once the game gets more variety in the weapon types and maybe even an overhaul to how ships can be built so as to give pros and cons to different styles of ships, then we can start talking about PvP.
 
As it currently stands, all it is is "people with uninspired ships" cleaning out "people who can't reasonably fight back" or "negate the battle with warp drive". If the game persists in its current state, it'll either be one or the other. There won't really be ballance. But I have faith that the devs will come up with a solution. Till then, I could only recommend that you maybe try to fight other PvP ships to keep that bloodthirst in check? That, or you could just keep on fighting the plethora of ships that don't have warp or radars. Don't pretend you haven't.
 
Till ship building is elaborated a little more, I'll just stick to the tried and true "never get spotted" method.

You know what else kills PvP? Death cubes. death cubes for days.
I'd be more sympathetic to PvP players if the meta wasn't just "lol, I'm so good and orriginal at making ships, I made a box that goes pew pew"
Once the game gets more variety in the weapon types and maybe even an overhaul to how ships can be built so as to give pros and cons to different styles of ships, then we can start talking about PvP.
 
As it currently stands, all it is is "people with uninspired ships" cleaning out "people who can't reasonably fight back" or "negate the battle with warp drive". If the game persists in its current state, it'll either be one or the other. There won't really be ballance. But I have faith that the devs will come up with a solution. Till then, I could only recommend that you maybe try to fight other PvP ships to keep that bloodthirst in check? That, or you could just keep on fighting the plethora of ships that don't have warp or radars. Don't pretend you haven't.
 
Till ship building is elaborated a little more, I'll just stick to the tried and true "never get spotted" method.

Player: Some jerk stole my ship by using an exploit!
NQ: qq more pleb. This is part of the game.
Also NQ: Some jerk stole our market by using an exploit!
(PERMA BAN)

Weak. Scapegoating. Poor leadership. No accountability. Bad communication. Terrible decision.
 
I'm out.
 
Next time you fck up, man up, take responsibility, have a laugh because It's a game, and keep people who are so engaged in the game that they're curious and exploring every possible aspect of it. These people finding bugs are the ones you want. You're going to be left with some boring ass vanilla gamers who want to stay in their bubble and not touch anything, and this whole game is going to be bugged to shit and will become unpopulated.

Reverse the decision and show you've actually learned from YOUR mistakes, and I'll be renewing. Otherwise, I'm not putting another dime into a game with immature devs who blame their users rather than take responsibility.

You just keep digging the grave. Very disappointing.
 
Also this:
 
Is far from obvious and clear. By using your own convoluted logic bends it is very much feasible to think that Aphelia's Constructs will at some point be subject to Territory Warfare.
 
 
Which is noone fault but your own? If you didn't have this major design flaw in how the Markets work, it would have been as simple as setting down a new Building from a Blueprint.
 
It could have been a necessary learning experience for you of how to manage an MMO. Instead it seems to me you still refuse Basic MMO lessons from the last 20+ years.
 
 

That section of the EULA you quoted is so vague it essentially means that bans can be handed out for making NQ look silly. If that's the section they were banned under the person who started this thread should probably consider banning any of their non-developer player accounts, as they sure as shit have damaged NQ's image and reputation much more than Scoopy and Uber did. Scoopy and Uber also directly stated that they did not take any market terminals as to not disrupt the experience of other players. 
What about the player who is a solo player and got permabanned for taking Two whole voxel lamps for his house? Did that impact the community? Did any player have a hard time because those two lamps were no longer there? 
 
Also if you're going to pull an "NQ clearly said..." let me remind you that they clearly said that permission based theft is 100% the fault of the person who failed to set the correct permissions so going by what NQ said taking everything there is absolutely fine, provided it wasn't the market terminals, which neither Uber nor Scoopy took, as such the only part of the EULA under that section they could have broken is the "They made us look silly which is the most retarded thing you could be banned for, never mind a permaban. 
 
As I've said before instead of swinging the ban hammer around like a fucking toy NQ should have used this as a positive PR event. Ran with" not even our stuff is safe if the permissions are incorrectly set! " then given every player who took something a little plaque they can place ingame with "I helped rearrange market 15" or "Market 15 beta tester" written on it. 
Then it would headline as "Developers thank players for helping highlight an issue during beta testing" if it headlined at all. 
Much better than the current headlines. 

If youre going by this 1:1 attacking Players in PvP who dont consent would break that rule aswell. There are no sanctions and youre ruining someone elses day with it. This rule is so vague its useless. A removed partially disassembled market wouldnt stop players from playing in any way, there were still at least 17 markets left on alioth alone.
NQ banned because they had a absolute shit way to implement the database for unfathomable reasons which no player could have anticipated and players unintentionally deleted it. They overreacted to their own absolutely amateurish mistake. No reasonable developer would have implemented a database in that way. Thats an 10 year old approach on making a game. And youre forgetting this was out in the open for hours if not for days without any reaction from NQ, so it was not one or two players who participated is was several in the 10s, maybe 100s who knows for sure.
 
 
Are you saying we shouldve known by then that they would become unreasonable and limit people in their freedom or even punish people if they played the game within the games intended systems? Obviously NQ is straying away from their initial promise more and more. Crippling the game as time goes by.
 
There was absolutely no feasable indication that using the games system would have a perma ban as consequence. No prior example. No rule that wouldve made that clear (only rules that were reinterpreted and bend to an insane extend). No one in history of DU has interacted with an construct of NQ in that way, all other interaction with NQ placed structures did not have any negative consequences. Period.

I get that

But perma ban?
Again, they didn't break any set rules.

Regardless of their intent, this paints a far worst image of NQ then it does of the players who did this.

The thing is, this has been reported
Several times.
INCLUDING BY THEM

It's been met with silence each time.

Player: Some jerk stole my ship by using an exploit!
NQ: qq more pleb. This is part of the game.
Also NQ: Some jerk stole our market by using an exploit!
(PERMA BAN)

Again you are wrong. You cannot seem to comprehend that real life and video games are not the same thing. This actually worries me. 
 
They the developers should be held to a higher standard than players, so when they drop the ball and screw up they should brush it off and act like adults. They didn't. In fact:
As for it being against the EULA, which is the claim of NQ. Let me quote the EULA for you:
"We can not get involved with permission based theft, whether as an individual or an organization."
 
It seems that they, as an organization have gotten involved. They have violated their own EULA  while quoting their EULA as reason to ban.  
That is the textbook definition of trying to throw a mods=gods hissyfit and you are enabling them. 
 
 
As for your final paragraph, you are either distorting facts intentionally or are too much of a smoothbrain to understand what you are saying. Your analogy once again does not fit. Instead it would be like placing a sign on or beside the back door saying "this door is open, feel free to come in and see the buffet inside" with the "free buffet" sitting just inside the back door. 
 
To sum up. The developers have it in their EULA themselves that permission based theft is fine. This is like a developer alt getting scammed then banning the person who scammed them because they wield the banhammer. Childish and liable to get them bad press (which they are now getting in spades). They should have said "oh, well its a beta, we screwed up, we will amend the EULA, fix the problem, thank the people for paying to beta test our game (not sure how old you are but when I grew up you got paid to beta test, in cash or a free product or at least got to play for free for the beta duration) and start fixing things from there. That would have been an adult move to make. 
 
However they didn't do that. 
 
 
Also on the fact that the game is filled with beta testers you don't seem to understand that the job of beta testers is to find out things like this. We have real life beta testers for both cyber and real life security. They are called penetration testers. They are literally paid to break into buildings, steal employee data, engage in corporate espionage by the corporation they are stealing from, on the grounds that they (obviously) give what they take back. They are paid generously for their work, they don't get fired for exposing a flaw, unless their employer knows about it and wants to ignore it. 
Novaquirk have been ignoring permission issues for quite some time, so I see this as ingame pen testing by beta testers, kind of like the difference between an IRL pen tester breaking into Joe the Janitor's office, helping himself to Joe's lunch and sitting in his seat, but instead breaking into the CEO's office, using the exact same method and sitting at their desk sipping a glass of $20,000 per bottle wine. 
I would liken it to (but not compare it directly to) fallout 76 and the developer room. I liken it to that as players found a problem. Only difference is they hacked their way into that dev room. It wasn't like the developer room was sitting around for all to see. I'm sure you know the amount of shit Bethesda got for their reaction to the dev room saga and that was legitimate hacking into a room that should have been removed. This is a group of players discovering that an area wasn't under the right protections and under the game rules and EULA they proceeded to help themselves. 
Nowhere in the EULA does it say "developers should be immune to all player acts" so your analogy is wrong and the EULA backs what I'm saying. 

Hi, I am that guy. I put money into this game 2 years ago, paid for a $120 package because it is the kind of game I love to play as I am a fan of Sci-fi, tech, games like Space Engineers etc and coding part was also appealing as I am a dev myself.

But I got into the game just now and literally had LESS than a week of playtime. So no, I had no idea that anything was tied to an object, which is a ridiculous design, neither did my friend knew about it who have been here less than a month. NovaQuark staff didn't care to check or even talk to us and just jumped to their conclusions based on assumptions, even banning people who have taken nothing else but some random lamp or leftovers of the construction for their own base.

In fact, me and Scoopy didn't even take all the terminals and MARKET WAS FUNCTIONING when we left it, it only didn't have walls and floors and couple of items missing, like glass and triangular glass.

Whoever was in charge of this is utterly incompetent and seeing CEO tweets doesn't make me think that this game has any future since it is his PERSONAL stance that we were rightfully banned permanently. Whoever is in charge of communication about us doing something unintentionally based on a human error from the company we paid money for to Beta Test and took it personally, instead of being professional about it. Banning paid beta testers in BETA test phase of the game is unprecedented, doesn't matter if devs had to spend more of their time to fix the issues or not -- every development studio has to face the bugs and their mistakes and own them, not blame their users/players/customers as it is just childish and irresponsible.

In every single game out there if something works mechanically, without breaking the game, it is not a bannable offense. But here are no mechanics and instead some paper statements that developers expect their new players to read.

IF SOMETHING SHOULDN'T BE DONE, IT SHOULDN'T BE POSSIBLE TO DO IT IN GAME <- good game design, NovaQuark approach is to make everything on paper it seem, not in game.
If players shouldn't destroy dev buildings, then it make it not possible as in every decent game out there. The reaction from all of your dev team is just lame and nothing more and you deserve to have a bad rep for this and held accountable, instead of putting all the blame on your community members and paying customers.

More than likely he would. 
It's already up on the SidAlpha discord too, sid is a little less well known than Jim Sterling, but the devs really put their foot in it this time. 
Also the EULA states:
"We can not get involved with permission based theft, whether as an individual or an organization"
This kind of renders their "You broke the EULA" claim moot. 
I assume what they mean when they cite the EULA is the whole "we can terminate anyone's account if we want to" part which is in pretty much every EULA and is never used unless someone did seething really bad that the rules or EULA never covered, or you want to get your game a whole heap and a half of negative publicity. 
 
This could have been a quirky beta event, the developers could have taken everything back and said it was unintended for developer constructs to be 'stolen' from and given everyone took something/interfaced with the construct while it was public a little "I was at Market 15" commerative plaque that would always be set to private permissions for said user to place in/on whatever they build. 
 
Edit:
I mean I could even understand banning the 4 involved for as long as it took the developers to make an investigation (or that being the excuse for "Sacre bleu, le Marché! Bannissez-les!" in a fit of wine and cheese fuelled rage) as to whether or not it was a mistake on their end, or a the 4 players found a way to change permissions of constructs and items. I couldn't see this taking longer than 24 hours and after the investigation an apology and a free week of game time could be handed out. 
However since they made this thread that would be totally impossible. The only thing the devs could do now to salvage things, slightly would be to unban said players and give them the minimum buy (3 months) of game time each for free, write an apology to each person banned (without it being a Ctrl C ctrl V job) as well as an open letter to the community then discipline whatever utter moron under their employ thought that banning them, then making a thread whining about them was a wise idea in the first place. 
 
At this point NovaQuirk need to hire a PR agent. It's clear that nobody working for them understands the monumental fuck up they've just made. 

So if someone is brand new to the game and they walk up to the market and go through wholly reasonable actions that are gameplay in every other sense and situation - that's an exploit and they should be permabanned.
 
You're not doing your argument or the devs any favours whatsoever. 
 

If a dev left RDMS open than that is not an exploit nor a bug. That a dev needed to change RDMS settings to move a market in itself is a massive red flag IMO
 
If you said that the players involved should have known better and not push this then sure, you have a point. But that does not make this an exploit in a game dev sense even when yes, you could say they exploited the situation by going in against better judgement. Those two uses of "exploit" are the same word yes, but the intent and meaning is very different and i think you know that.
 
Again, I am not saying what happend is not an issue or that it's fine what these guys did. I am saying that I can see the adrenaline rushing and stupid choices were made and yes, NQ needs to address that absolutely. As a business responsible for keeping the lights on and feeding 100+ staff at a time they really can't afford any missteps, NQ must also see the bigger picture and their own position. Instead they pretty much went out of their way to make this presentable in a way that the could enforce a ban due to actions by a player (group) with malicious intent to sabotage and damage NQ using an exploit which is not what happend here. And the text they used is quite easily debunked to the point it becomes what it is, dumb players doing dumb things following a dev making a dumb mistake.
 
 
NQ should have been firm and hand out punitive sanctions but also maintain the higher ground and think of their own and the game's interest which they did not and that will be seeing a fallout causing more harm than the heist did for them over the next days and/or weeks. And that is entirely on them.

Dude again youre missing essential parts of basic concepts here.... An integral and essential part of an exploit is that it gives an unique advantage (thru ways that are not generally avaible). There was no unique advantage the market was open to EVERYONE.   "NQ specifically put wording in the TOS, so when they screw up like this, players don't go post about it on Reddit."   Which shows how little they want to take responsibility for their mistakes. Also im pretty sure that is against EU law.   "That doesn't change the fact that intentionally violating the TOS gets you banned."   If anything is was an absolute gray zone, what made NQ freak out was their second, much bigger fuck up within the initial fuck up. Storing data as an ingame item, which is insanely amateurish. They could been a positive constructive example, this was the first case of players and NQ ingame interaction on that level, so there was no guideline to go by. Now people might twist and turn things in hindsight to make it look that this was obviously completely against the ToS,EULA,Banana because NQ has reacted randomly, but objectively there is no example of this happening prior to this. If it wouldve been so obvious that this wouldve only been met with this kind of overreaction and overly harsh punishment, do you really think anyone wouldve actually and intentionally done something? Clearly this was an unclear situation and interesting for actual sandboxers, honestly I laughed about it at first thinking NQ would fix the situation and promise to be less negligent in the future and maybe made a kind of ingame event out of it. But they completely put it on the players. Sure you cannot think of everything, but especially if youre 99% of the issue and reason why the stuff went down you should be able to man up and not lash out onto players.

Are you seriously comparing duping and hacks with stealing some voxels within the intended game mechanics (unintentionally and accidentally breaking NQs absolute horrible way of data storing)?
No one would defend dupers, no one would defend speed hackers, no one would defend other means of third party use or messing with the game code. Actively trying to break the game by creating programms is something on a completely different layer. No one wouldve bat an eye if they wouldve banned these kind of hackers and actual exploiters. They made a huge mistake and now theyre treating regular players who did not mess with the game in any other way than how it was intended like they hacked into their mainframe and deleted all accounts plus doxing JCs private address. This is out of proportion.

Exactly the shortsightedness of NQ is causing the biggest harm here. Some people here mistake the concern for the future of DU as hate for DU, but its the opposite if anything. For many its obvious that what NQ is doing is actually harming the reputation and therefore the future of the game itself. I dont understand how a company that claims to be community orientated thinks it gets away tyranny and ignorance in this day and age. The censorship is also a huge part that worries me. Of course many of us try to document as much of the events as possible and if NQ keeps on with this it will come back even worse. I can only shake my head at a company that acts like a little kid with an hurt ego instead of reaching out to the community and solving issues in a mannered fashion, being able to admit their own responsibility in this and act accordingly, instead of spreading lies, twisting words or trying to change things into something theyre not or even deny stuff that is well documented.

This is the core of the argument. NQ would love for everyone to buy into this and pretty much went out of their way to try and portray events to align with the sentiment this is/was an exploit. and pretty much spun the response in such a way that it appears to be a matter of an exploit being used and the players involved knowingly and with malicious intent sabotaging the market system and causing loss of data. Problem is that there is enough information available to at least poke holes in their response.
 
It's not an exploit and NQ did not create one by a dev being dumb and leaving a market with open access in RDMS. 
 
This is a case of players taking advantage of an incorrectly set RDMS. NQ has been hammering home the fact that they consider RDMS theft as perfectly fine. They drove home the notion that if you mistakenly set RDMS wrong and someone takes advantage that is your loss and they can't get involved. And that is actually fine for me.
 
Were the guys doing this wrong? yes
Did these guys continue to make dumb moves? certainly
Should there be consequences? yes
 
Is it good for NQ to pretty much play the victim and quite literally spin and twist their rules to fit justifying a permaban? No on many fronts
Is a permaban justified here? IMO certainly not
 
NQ could have benefitted from this positively in many ways, certainly publicly. Now and over the next few days if not weeks, the opposite will happen and they should have realized this action would not go down well. Many, many people who had never heard of DU or might have and were considering joining will at best have second thoughts and/or based on blown out of proportion hit piece videos and articles decide to stay away and "spread the word" which is not what the game deserves or what NQ can afford to happen. And all of that is entirely on them for not considering their options, not reconsidering as the first signs of this started to emerge and stating quiet hoping it will go away as they tend to do.

In less than two months they have now created two incidents which have been blow up in the gaming press with a negative image of them and reflecting badly on the game and that is a shame.
 
This situation is very much reminiscent of the recent incident with a CSM member for CCP/EVE, a knee jerk reaction before all the facts are in line and then a massive fallout as more details emerge. CCP was smart enough to recognize the situation, take ownership and correct it. It blew over and actually got them praise for being able to own up on their error, take the hit when they turn out to be wrong and overreact. I honestly do not see NQ be able to do the same, in fact I expect NQ just pressed delete on these guys and went back to sleep. I also expect NQ will just start handing out more bans and mutes as this continues to be a topic thinking they can make it go away in that manner. I think NQ has a lot to learn still and do wonder what JC would think f this as I somehow suspect he is not actually (fully) informed on this matter.

This is the worst case scenario. Where the official response to an issue that has been plaguing the general community for the longest time is "It's not our problem" until the devs get hit by it.

Can you see what kind of precedence you are placing by putting yourselves ABOVE the players this way? SPECIALLY since there was NOTHING in the rules stating that this would be a violation.

Simply assuming that people will work by your own definition of "common sense" is folly. Specially when your view excludes the "common sense" of other people in the first place.

My own interpretation of "common sense" here, is that if you allow one person to exploit the system in unintended ways against another player, you should expect this kind of behavior to apply to EVERYONE. you included. If you fail to protect yourselves properly against this, then it falls strictly to YOU for failing to do so. If you do not like this, then you need to apply and enforce stricter rules protecting EVERYONE from these unlawful exploits.

Heed my warning: If you are going to play favorites, this project will end in bankrupcy.

The proper way to handle this, would be a slap on the wrist of the people responsible, and working on fixing the issue for everyone.

Running a company isn't about flimsy things like "ideals" and "doing the right thing". On that much, I can agree.
HOWEVER... Selling something requires to have a good grasp of the targeted consumer's interests.
In this game's case, the common trait all customers share, is that they want to play a game where they can do what they want, only needing to fear repercussion if they break the rules.
This event has shattered this concept. No rule was broken and a player has had all of his rights and progress revoked over something that was so ambiguous that the company's only defense is citing "common sense".
This only shows that no player is safe playing this game. Forget PvE or PvP, at any time, if you end up doing something that the devs don't like, wether it be accidental or not, you will lose all your progress.
This is pretty much a game led by an authoritarian regime. Tyrany at its best. And this is not something that will attract customers in the slightest.

They need to shape up, or I'm not going to waste any more of my time and money on this failure of a game. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in this.

If NQ fucks up your RDMS they need to replace everything that you lost because of that, its their fault. If NQ fucks up their own RDMS they need to replace everything for the player who lost something because of their horribly amateurish way to implement the market inventory and storage, its their fault. Deleting the stolen material could be adequate, but not nessecarily. At no point is the player to blame within the context of sandbox and at no point was nuking players an adequate reaction. A temp ban wouldve been already been more enough of a show of "power" (Id call it weakness tho because it the most shortsighted punishment considering its their fault). We're still not talking about a bug here. It was within the set rules of the game NQ owned or not.
I know youre purposely acting stupid here to provoke, but it seems to fit the mentality of some. Sadly.

This is the worst case scenario. Where the official response to an issue that has been plaguing the general community for the longest time is "It's not our problem" until the devs get hit by it.

Can you see what kind of precedence you are placing by putting yourselves ABOVE the players this way? SPECIALLY since there was NOTHING in the rules stating that this would be a violation.

Simply assuming that people will work by your own definition of "common sense" is folly. Specially when your view excludes the "common sense" of other people in the first place.

My own interpretation of "common sense" here, is that if you allow one person to exploit the system in unintended ways against another player, you should expect this kind of behavior to apply to EVERYONE. you included. If you fail to protect yourselves properly against this, then it falls strictly to YOU for failing to do so. If you do not like this, then you need to apply and enforce stricter rules protecting EVERYONE from these unlawful exploits.

Heed my warning: If you are going to play favorites, this project will end in bankrupcy.

The proper way to handle this, would be a slap on the wrist of the people responsible, and working on fixing the issue for everyone.

This is the worst case scenario. Where the official response to an issue that has been plaguing the general community for the longest time is "It's not our problem" until the devs get hit by it.

Can you see what kind of precedence you are placing by putting yourselves ABOVE the players this way? SPECIALLY since there was NOTHING in the rules stating that this would be a violation.

Simply assuming that people will work by your own definition of "common sense" is folly. Specially when your view excludes the "common sense" of other people in the first place.

My own interpretation of "common sense" here, is that if you allow one person to exploit the system in unintended ways against another player, you should expect this kind of behavior to apply to EVERYONE. you included. If you fail to protect yourselves properly against this, then it falls strictly to YOU for failing to do so. If you do not like this, then you need to apply and enforce stricter rules protecting EVERYONE from these unlawful exploits.

Heed my warning: If you are going to play favorites, this project will end in bankrupcy.

The proper way to handle this, would be a slap on the wrist of the people responsible, and working on fixing the issue for everyone.

Player: Some jerk stole my ship by using an exploit!
NQ: qq more pleb. This is part of the game.
Also NQ: Some jerk stole our market by using an exploit!
(PERMA BAN)