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What value does sovereign territory have in an infinite universe?

infinite universe eve online territory politics war

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#21
Anonymous

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The same things that prevent you from loading up your car and driving across a continent on a whim in real life are the same things that will stop you from going too far in Dual Universe. 

 

How do you know about that court order?

 

Er... I mean - yes - I agree - practical limitations, resources, other words about something something early game limitations.

 

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#22
Wicpar

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I have seen some people arguing if DU is really infinite, and i honestly don't know, but in theory true infinity could be achieved like this:

 

minecraft isn't infinite because the world center is the center of the map, and thus due to floating point exceptions, the extremes become jumpy. additionally, the terrain generation has been fixed, but before that it was wired because of floating point exceptions too (and an error in the algorithm).

 

recipe to make a truely infinite universe:

1: the center of the universe is literally the player, he will thus always experience the optimal floating point precision.

2: each planet/chunk must have its own plane of reference. no float as position, no double, Big Integers. they will only become expensive once in the 128 bit range:  1.7014118e+38 units, which for 1mm precision, you would have 1.7014118e+35 meters with the galaxy being 9.4607e+17 meters which is 1.7983995e+17 galaxies, so yeah.... try travelling that in a lifetime.

3: have planets in their own frame of reference and organized in an octree lookup table so you can easily get the reference described of all the planets around you so you can query them individually for different precision. lower precision are not generated until needed (the metadata is kept with the planet to resume generation of more detailed features. 

4: every enclosing type has an octree of the types it encloses to promote efficient movement (galaxies could rotate efficiently with its people and planets inside)

 

the Intel Xeon Phi already even supports 512 bit operations... so yeah... performance is not an issue...

 

this system allows for a linear performance scaling in performance and memory needs of the world.

 

I don't think NQ has implemented that, since 64 bit sizes already allow for a galaxy sized playing fields, but if they are gonna be around a long time (10 years) they better plan for a system, to use the available performance for optimum fun :)



#23
Leonis ▬ Emperor's Adviser

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Ah this question. Why not infinite? The main problem remains the memory space it takes. The more you go further the more space is generated. Then, when it comes to a limit (computed by the server), why not close the Universe on itself, making it the interior of a sphere? We would go round, it will be fun, and easily readable on a map (even though it would be a big map, scalable). The servers them only load user by user with a visibility range, so the main loading charge should be the player's connection asking for the game to show.


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#24
wizardoftrash

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Ah this question. Why not infinite? The main problem remains the memory space it takes. The more you go further the more space is generated. Then, when it comes to a limit (computed by the server), why not close the Universe on itself, making it the interior of a sphere? We would go round, it will be fun, and easily readable on a map (even though it would be a big map, scalable). The servers them only load user by user with a visibility range, so the main loading charge should be the player's connection asking for the game to show.

Ah but here is where it gets neat.

 

You can pitch the idea of a semi-infinite world, but when the server reaches its limit in generating new planets (and I'l willing to bet after some players in beta decide to fly off in different directions for as long as possible), it will simply stop generating new planets. Sure a player could continue to explore beyond, but as long as there are no voxels to be edited beyond the edge of a planet, the server will only track the player's position as relative to the nearest worlds. The player could probably continue to march into the void, but the server would prevent them from building any stations beyond the "edge".

 

Then the universe would be effectively limited at that point, taking the shape of all of the discovered planets so far, but it would certainly not be a sphere. The furthest points will be the furthest points explored, and everywhere without a discovered world would be blank until the next expansion.

 

I don't expect the players to really hit this limit, you can do some nifty things with game mechanics to make it very challenging to travel long distances. Especially if they decide that planets further out are also further apart.


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#25
Leonis ▬ Emperor's Adviser

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Actually a closed sphere would be the same as boundaries but you would be as teleported when you reach the boundary. I will find this pretty interesting for the gameplay. The problem if you make boundaries as you say is that the one that settles at the boundary first has a very advantage on others. The people at the boundary will have not to look at their back. A world where there is no center seems more balanced to me.


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#26
Dunbal

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Vorengard and CaptainTwerkMotor have the right of it, in my opinion.

 

It really doesn't matter what the actual size of the universe is. The number of players is not infinite, and the distribution of skill and talent among players will not be even. Some people have more time than others, and some people are better at some things than others. Therefore there will be an uneven distribution of resources - above and beyond the geographical. Whether these resources are materials, constructed things, markets, violence, etc. it doesn't matter, they will be clumped into regions concentrated around those people or groups of people who far exceed the rest of us in that particular area. Specialization is innate to the human creature simply because we are not all "created equal". Some are better book-keepers, some are better traders, some better builders, some better hunters and some are better fighters. Therefore I expect the game population to slowly organize around specialized groups - and necessarily those of us who are not as skilled in one area or another will loosely orbit those groups and territories that hold the skills or things we need - or travel between sets of areas (and thus the trade route is born).



#27
Johny5134234

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The position of the land is also important, how close it is to trade hubs and such



#28
wizardoftrash

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The position of the land is also important, how close it is to trade hubs and such

Actually I'd say position is the more important than the raw resources offered in an area.

 

Time spent playing the game is a key resource in games like DU. The locations where players have spent the most productive time will end up being the most valuable. By productive time, I mean building shops and infrastructure, mining and refining resources, etc. The only productive time in a region that doesn't improve its value is exporting finished or raw goods in a trade that doesn't return goods.

 

If there is a large concentration of shops in a given territory, it no longer matters if that territory still has any ore. A territory that has already been partially mined is often MORE valuable than one that hasn't (since the ore deposits and dig sites are visible, the time scanning and prospecting has already been spent). And this is indeed first and foremost a multiplayer experience, regions that get more player traffic will be more sought after.


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#29
Lord_Void

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This thread, it lives! :o 

 

Definitely, the value of territory is going to be highly dependent on a lot of things, and different areas will have different values to different people. A miner would value land that is yet unmined more than land that has already been stripped bare. A mercenary group would want a strategic position that is both defensible and that they can launch attacks from. A merchant group would want to be near the trade hubs or by the large player concentrations. Alliances will want to be near their allies. 

 

In fact, land speculation might be a viable way of investing. 


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#30
jtroberts01

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This universe has a defined centre - the spawn. Closer to the centre means more influence over new players. I'd say that's a useful asset.

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#31
bastanold

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Sure, space is infinite, but space is governed by the laws of physics and largely expressed within 3-dimensions as well as time. Thus, locality and proximity will have meaning in terms of interaction among players and their subsequent orgs. You are certainly free to go off to distant systems(when the opportunity presents itself) but be aware that your prosperity or success will only be a great as your capacity to build and develop.  


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